Who trims their own horses feet?

I wouldn't trim my horses feet - absolutly not. I trained for 3 years in my field & no way would my farrier think he could do my job with a bit of training & vice versa applies.

He has offered to teach me how to make sure they are looking good for a show, but I'd rather get him to pop in on his way home & buy him a beer in return! I have one shod & one unshod. He gives both equal attention & care, plus regularly watches them walk and trot up on hard and soft surfaces.

I'd always rather pay for expertise than faff around myself, potentially making things worse. I do know though, that my farrier has had longer training, and is still cheaper than the barefoot trimmer someone else uses but my horses feet look so much better.
 
teddyt there is plenty of info out there on why shoes are so bad for feet - in fact ask most farriers and they'll be able to tell you. Or PM me and I'll go into the whole thing in detail.

You admit you have limited experience in using hoof boots so it's understandable you might think they were still badly designed but design has improved hugely in the last few years. Have you used Easyboot Gloves or Renegades? Fitted properly they stay put and don't rub. I've ridden up to 50 miles at a time in Gloves without a problem, plenty of people have done (and won) 100 mile in a day race rides in them. If you want to know anything more about hoof boots then just ask!
 
No, i havnt used them. All the boots ive ever seen (including ones used by barefoot converts- so presumably with advice from their trimmer) only come in limited sizes with various ways to get them to fit. None of which seem that good! A shoe can be made to fit the foot but many boots dont seem to have this accurate adjustment without being crude e.g. an insert or adjustment on one part of the boot but not others.

I had a conversation recently with a man who was raving about how much better his horse moved without shoes. He then went on to say his horse was lame without boots! And that his horse slipped without boots.:confused:

Is there proper scientific evidence, not just anecdotal, about detrimental effects of shoes when fitted correctly?
 
teddyt said:
No, i havnt used them. All the boots ive ever seen (including ones used by barefoot converts- so presumably with advice from their trimmer) only come in limited sizes with various ways to get them to fit. None of which seem that good! A shoe can be made to fit the foot but many boots dont seem to have this accurate adjustment without being crude e.g. an insert or adjustment on one part of the boot but not others.

I had a conversation recently with a man who was raving about how much better his horse moved without shoes. He then went on to say his horse was lame without boots! And that his horse slipped without boots.:confused:

Is there proper scientific evidence, not just anecdotal, about detrimental effects of shoes when fitted correctly?
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Where are you teddyt? You'd be very welcome to come and have a look at my horses and their boots. There's a huge range of sizes available now, nothing crude or awkward about them. The Gloves are brilliant and dead simple to use. My horses move much better in them than in shoes - shod horses tend to do a toe first landing which is incorrect whereas barefoot or barefoot and booted horses will land heel first - as nature designed them to do.

re the man you talked to - if his horse is lame without boots then he needs to look at it's diet and environment. I find traction much better without shoes - the speed i went down a very steep tarmac track this morning is testament to that. This is a track that shod horses have to avoid! With shoes horses lose preprioception - without shoes they actually know where they are putting their feet... personally I find that very reassuring.
 
We have shod and unshod horses for various reasons at various times, some of both who are either field ornaments or in an average amount of work, according to their need.
I wouldn't either try to trim my horses' feet myself or use an unqualified barely trained 'barefoot trimmer'. Over the last 35 yrs we have had 4 different farriers. The first one, who retired, had trained the next and he trained the 4th. The 1st was extremely highly though of locally and used by the reputable riding schools of his day. The 2nd was used by a well-known showjumping family and the 4th accompanied another farrier to a well-known racing trainer's yard frequently. After qualifying the 4th also shod for a now (but not then) well-known eventer, who has since left the area. I think if its good enough for these successful equestrians then its good enough for me! Between the 2nd and the 4th we had to find another at short notice. He had been apprenticed to some-one else locally. I don't know enough to trim horses' feet but I do know enough to know that our feet were becoming unbalanced. It is our responsibility IMO to be able to recognise this and any other problems and find a farrier who does high quality work.
 
mrdarcy said:
With shoes horses lose preprioception - without shoes they actually know where they are putting their feet... personally I find that very reassuring.
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This post just proves that you have no idea what 'proprioception' actually means. :(
Perhaps a bit of study might help you argue your case for working horses unshod; I do agree that for SOME horses it can be a good idea, and am always disappointed by the bad science spouted as evidence.

S :D
 
Actually i think your wrong there,her use of grammer is perfect. Big deal she used a e insted of a o (yawn)...

There is masses of exact science on barefoot on the internet.

You give it another few years..... and i seriously smell the winds of change.....

Barefoot will become the way of the future.

But because so many vets and farriers are stuck in a timewarp, and can't move outside the box, at the moment people are sceptical.

My own belgian warmblood was completely written off last year, as was told by numerous 'top vets' he was finished for ever and pts.

He is back in work, showjumping and competing again all barefoot.

Unfortunately until something goes wrong with something people don't really want to discover what really could be happening.

I really don't need a degree or need to be a qualified vet to realise the only way to have a horses hoof functioning truly normaly, bending flexing and finding its own natural wear pattern to assist in balancing its own skeleton. (im not talking about a horse whose out at grass which feet are allowed to get deformed and out of shape).
 
Personally I would be perfectly happy to rasp and tidy - in agreement with the horse's regular qualified farrier or barefoot trimmer, however I would not feel comfortable trimming with a knife.

I reckon many people who trim their own horses (not professionally) do so in between visits by their farrier or barefoot trimmer, in agreement with the said professional. I don't think this is a problem.

It may also depend a bit on the needs of the horse - surely a barefoot performance horse or one under remedial care may of course need more expertise than one retired, at grass, with uncomplicated feet.
 
I trim all my horses feet, and have done now for 4 years, it was not really by choice, but finding a good farrier out here in Spain where I am, was a nightmare, they were either very bad, (ended up with very upright boxy odd sized feet) but reliable, or fairly decent but very unreliable..

got to the point that the 2 mares shoes were dangling.. and I was just being given excuses why he could not come, in the end, as the 2 mares were in-foal, I decided to removed their shoes and tidy up their feet... well 4 years on, and they have stayed barefoot, and ive not had a farrier since, I trim them as and when they need it, which is not that often on my land.

Now my big mare Freckles, went to Newmarket once to the vets as she was lame and was told that she would need the egg bar shoes forever and that she would always be lame... (though they never really gave me a deffinate reason for the lameness) well since she has been barefoot she has been only lame once, and that was because she got a stone jammed in her foot (its very stoney here)

so personally I will carry on trimming my own.. (though if I was still in the UK, I would probably still be using a farrier...)
 
to the vets as she was lame and was told that she would need the egg bar shoes forever and that she would always be lame... (though they never really gave me a deffinate reason for the lameness) well since she has been barefoot she has been only lame once,
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How often have we heard that - eggbar and heartbars used buit with no real clear vision of why they are being used, or the problem they are attempting to resolve being clearly articulated.

That's part of the whole problem I have with shoes - adding more shoe, wedges, offsets, extensions, or other techniques to a foot that is compromised - is ift not better to allow the hoof to recover naturally and grow what it needs to grow to support the needs of what is above it?

P.S. The knife thing is straightforward _CJ_ - I almost never trim sole or frog - the only exceptions are where the bars are getting overlaid, or there is a lump at the seat of corn. Generally I leave the frogs well alone - any cushioning is good cushion!
 
Daisychain said:
Actually i think your wrong there,her use of grammer is perfect. Big deal she used a e insted of a o (yawn)...
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Oh, I defer to your clearly superior skills in the evaluation of her grammar and spelling.
I was referring to her lack of comprehension of proprioception, and I gave the correct spelling to assist in googling...
If she understood how proprioception works, she would never have made the point that shoes prevent proprioception (whilst simultaneously advocating the use of boots).
S :D
 
brucea said:
How often have we heard that - eggbar and heartbars used buit with no real clear vision of why they are being used, or the problem they are attempting to resolve being clearly articulated.

That's part of the whole problem I have with shoes - adding more shoe, wedges, offsets, extensions, or other techniques to a foot that is compromised - is ift not better to allow the hoof to recover naturally and grow what it needs to grow to support the needs of what is above it?

P.S. The knife thing is straightforward _CJ_ - I almost never trim sole or frog - the only exceptions are where the bars are getting overlaid, or there is a lump at the seat of corn. Generally I leave the frogs well alone - any cushioning is good cushion!
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I have to agree.. I think the best thing I ever did was take mines shoes off, yet I remember when I moved here, saying that my horse would never be barefoot as its so stoney...I did take them a while to adjust to the ground and were footy for a while, but nw I can hack out without boots, though I am careful where I ride as the ground is quite bad..

And as for the knife, I was told by one farrier how thin her soles were then proceded to trim lots of it away, I do exactly the same as you regarding frogs and soles..

My land is very terraced, rough in places, grassy in others, (typical spanish land) yet the horses have become so foot sure on it, and im sure being barefooted has helped.
 
The problem I have with the 'Barefoot' movement is the fanaticisism, which led to the whole Strasser mess. I am also a little tired of hearing how farriers do not watch how a horse moves, show any interest in feeding etc. etc. What a load of rubbish! Over the years I have heard more lectures on the horses way of going, its nutrition, anatomy and goodness only knows what else from successive farriers, who have all shown an incredible interest and enthusiasm for their job. The only farrier we have used whose work we were not happy with, we stopped using, and just out of interest, he was the only one who actually rode himself.
If the barefoot groups were to have a register similar to the farriers registration council, and were not able to set up, with or without training of any kind, I may give them a little more credence. As it stands, a trimmer can be thrown off one groups list and simply set up on their own and as an owner, you have little or no come back. If a farrier gets it wrong, is negligent, you have some recourse,and as one farrier in our area discovered, they will indeed strike off the bad ones (provided owners complain).
So no I wouldn't trim my own, I will pay the person who has proved their ability.
 
Daisychain said:
Actually i think your wrong there,her use of grammer is perfect. Big deal she used a e insted of a o (yawn)...

There is masses of exact science on barefoot on the internet.

You give it another few years..... and i seriously smell the winds of change.....

Barefoot will become the way of the future.

But because so many vets and farriers are stuck in a timewarp, and can't move outside the box, at the moment people are sceptical.

My own belgian warmblood was completely written off last year, as was told by numerous 'top vets' he was finished for ever and pts.

He is back in work, showjumping and competing again all barefoot.

Unfortunately until something goes wrong with something people don't really want to discover what really could be happening.

I really don't need a degree or need to be a qualified vet to realise the only way to have a horses hoof functioning truly normaly, bending flexing and finding its own natural wear pattern to assist in balancing its own skeleton. (im not talking about a horse whose out at grass which feet are allowed to get deformed and out of shape).
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LOL - thanks daisychain. You know when someone's losing an argument when they have to seize on someone making a typo to use against them. But you can never have a reasoned debate with that particular poster. Congrats on your horse - you being brave enough to ignore the people who'd written him off. I hear it time and time again - they take your money (lots of it) and then get nowhere and say there is nothing more they can do. The poor owner is then left with a still lame horse and an empty bank account.

It's heartening to see more and more people on this forum realising that barefoot can work for them - I've noticed a change even in the last six months, much more support and far less poorly informed opposition. It's great to hear that there are farriers out there offering nutrition advice - it's not something I've ever experienced but if farriers really are recommending low sugar/starch diets then fantastic. The only nutrition advice I ever got from a farrier was to get some Formula 4 Feet - not one has ever told me to read the small print on the ingredients list of my feed bags to check for hidden nasties like molasses. Or warned me that the growth ring in my horse's feet was actually from LGL.

I do agree that you need to make sure your trimmer is well trained and part of one of the respected organisations - the two longest standing ones AANHCP and IAEP both founded by farriers btw. The horse owner can very easily check the credentials of their trimmer. As we all know there are good and bad farriers - yes some are kicked off the FRC but there are still many farriers out there doing bad work that get away with it year after year.

YorksG - I don't really understand what you mean about barefoot fanaticism leading to the Strasser mess... can you explain further?
 
If the barefoot groups were to have a register similar to the farriers registration council, and were not able to set up, with or without training of any kind, I may give them a little more credence.
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YorksG - I think you will fins that ALL of the hoofcare organisations including UKNHCP, AEP, FRC etc., are currently working with LANTRA to put standards in place, and are working towards recognised certificaiton.

Yes, I agree with you, the Strasser thing was a bit of a mess, and it is a great pity that the barefoot movement had that reputational setback when it did and focussed everyone's attention on a minority practice, rather than on the wider messages of natural hoof care in general.

In the end of the day it is the horse owner's responsibility to chose what works best for the interests of their animal's welfare, and the "right choice" will take account of all sorts of factors.
 
mrdarcy said:
LOL - thanks daisychain. You know when someone's losing an argument when they have to seize on someone making a typo to use against them. But you can never have a reasoned debate with that particular poster.
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Equally, one might say that you know when someone is losing an argument when they don't address points made, but instead attack the one who asks the questions...
I suppose the difference between us is that I don't have any vested interest in the debate, whereas you do, therefore I can view this more objectively.
I have yet to be given any references for studies to support the 'barefoot' claims...and am forced to assume that either they don't exist, or that people misunderstand them (as happened with MrDarcy and proprioception above where the error is deeper than the spelling, lol). A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
If anyone knows of any proper studies (i.e. using controlled trials rather than anecdotal evidence) I'd be interested to read them.
S :D
 
Shils,

Have you had a look at some of the publications available from Robert Bowker and from Chris Pollitt - some interesting information in there.

Prof Bowker did a seminar tour last year for the UKNHCP, EAP and lot of Farriers there too - everyone got a huge amount out of it - he was utterly fascinating to listen to - covering everything from the results of his proprioreception studies through to changes at the cellular anatomy levels.

Keep your ear to the ground, I heard a rumour he may be running another series later this year.

B
 
And I wanted to add a comment around the original issue

With shoes horses lose preprioception - without shoes they actually know where they are putting their feet... personally I find that very reassuring.
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Bowker's research is interesting in that it demonstrates that shod horses do not have the same level of stimulation of the proprioreceptor cells in the frog and digital cusion as barefoot horses [with a natural heel forst landing - that's important beucase the MC's are located in the back of the hoof] - and that shoes do cause a loss of proprioreceptive capability.

Because these cells function as part of the whole feedback mechanism of regulating blood perfusion in the hoof - the effect of shoes removing these parts of the hoof from active use by providing a peripheral wall support will have a knock on effect into the horse's overall sensitivity in the foot. This may partly underly the reason why many horses transitioning through removal of shoes may be more sensitive for a period as these cells are stimulated and the nervous system adapts to the new level of stimulation.

It's all fascinating stuff.

I don't think MrDarcy was that far off in the original post. Certainly I find my bare horses are much more aware of where they are putting thier feet than they were shod, or even booted.

B
 
mrdarcy said:
I've ridden up to 50 miles at a time in Gloves without a problem, plenty of people have done (and won) 100 mile in a day race rides in them. If you want to know anything more about hoof boots then just ask!
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Can you tell me which horses have won 160km endurance rides without shoes in the UK?

There is quite a small pool of people competing successfully at that level and off the top if my head I cannot think of any whose horses aren't shod for 160km clases, so I would be really interested to know.
 
Times are a-changing, as with so much there is lots of accurate information with good authority behind it available on performance barefoot if you want it. Plenty of places to research are listed on this thread, and others elsewhere on the Forum. The "barefoot doesn't work in this country" argument can be successfully challenged over and over again, and those whose horses are successfully barefoot can see the evidence in front of their eyes. All horses can be barefoot, not all owners can. If you're interested do some research.
 
A very interesting debate. All above my head i am afraid. I just hope my trusted farrier does not retire whilst i have horses.
I have a horse i have owned for 27 years and has never been shod. The 'Barefoot' thing i think is quite new but going unshod has been around oodles of years.
My daughters pony competes unshod without any problems. She actually managed better on going boggy ground recently than the shod with studs did. She did not slip where as many of them did. It could mean nothing that she was unshod.
I would never dream of trimming her feet or any horses feet, i also would not feel happy going to a barefoot trimmer as i no nothing of it. My farrier who has many years experience and training gives me perfect advice. When we have had a horse that needed shoes he has said and they have been fitted. If they don't need them he also says and keeps their feet in tip top condition.
I do believe no one way is right for all.
 
Arabelle said:
Can you tell me which horses have won 160km endurance rides without shoes in the UK?

There is quite a small pool of people competing successfully at that level and off the top if my head I cannot think of any whose horses aren't shod for 160km clases, so I would be really interested to know.
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Hopefully me one day! But you're right in that the number of people doing endurance barefoot in the UK is still small (but growing every year). In this country barefoot horses have placed in 120k race rides and won 80k race rides but haven't got as far as the elusive 160k yet. In the USA they are light years ahead in barefoot in general and in barefoot endurance - but that's not surprising as the US is where the whole performance barefoot thing started. Just last year the American National 100 mile champion horse was barefoot and booted, has just come 2nd in another 100 race ride and is being aimed at the WEG. His blog is here: http://feiredhorse.blogspot.com/. The Glue-on boots are fantastic - you put them on just before the competition and remove them straight after. No risk of them coming off or rubbing. They've been used in extremely wet conditions as well as the dry and work just as well in either. They are the way forwards for the longer distances and so much better than shoes and pads.
 
horses13 said:
A very interesting debate. All above my head i am afraid. I just hope my trusted farrier does not retire whilst i have horses.
I have a horse i have owned for 27 years and has never been shod. The 'Barefoot' thing i think is quite new but going unshod has been around oodles of years.
My daughters pony competes unshod without any problems. She actually managed better on going boggy ground recently than the shod with studs did. She did not slip where as many of them did. It could mean nothing that she was unshod.
I would never dream of trimming her feet or any horses feet, i also would not feel happy going to a barefoot trimmer as i no nothing of it. My farrier who has many years experience and training gives me perfect advice. When we have had a horse that needed shoes he has said and they have been fitted. If they don't need them he also says and keeps their feet in tip top condition.
I do believe no one way is right for all.
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Completely agree with this, my mares are all unshod, they hack and complete (BD) normally, the farrier trims their feet every six weeks. I am lucky my horses have very hard horn so do not need shoes - it was my farrier who suggested we try the first one without shoes and it went from there. There is no way on God's earth that I would presume to know anything about trimming their feet - I have not studied for years, unlike my farrier!

I dislike the fanaticism of barefoot or indeed anything or one who shouts from the rooftops that theirs is the only way and that we poor suckers have been wrong all these years:mad:
 
stormybracken said:
If you're interested do some research.
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I am interested and i have asked for barefoot people on this thread to provide some links/info on published research but no-one seems to have any! :confused: Shillisdair has asked too and she hasnt had an answer either. Its all very well saying do some research but you (and others) know about this work, yet you still wont provide references, jus a couple of names. It would be nice if you could add some published references to this thread, as you know so much about it, rather than just telling us to go and have a look!

As no one has taken me up on my challenge from earlier, heres another clue- the distal phalanx may appear displaced laterally on the pastern axis.
Im not trying to catch anyone out- this was part of a student assessment that i did in my degree. Im just interested to know if anyone who is trimming feet knows what its about, as we learnt it and werent being trained as farriers or trimmers.

The problem I have with the 'Barefoot' movement is the fanaticisism, which led to the whole Strasser mess. I am also a little tired of hearing how farriers do not watch how a horse moves, show any interest in feeding etc. etc. What a load of rubbish! Over the years I have heard more lectures on the horses way of going, its nutrition, anatomy and goodness only knows what else from successive farriers, who have all shown an incredible interest and enthusiasm for their job. The only farrier we have used whose work we were not happy with, we stopped using, and just out of interest, he was the only one who actually rode himself.
If the barefoot groups were to have a register similar to the farriers registration council, and were not able to set up, with or without training of any kind, I may give them a little more credence. As it stands, a trimmer can be thrown off one groups list and simply set up on their own and as an owner, you have little or no come back. If a farrier gets it wrong, is negligent, you have some recourse,and as one farrier in our area discovered, they will indeed strike off the bad ones (provided owners complain).
So no I wouldn't trim my own, I will pay the person who has proved their ability.
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I totally agree with this. One of my pet hates is when trimmers continually insist that sugar is the devil and barefoot horses mustnt have any in their diet for barefoot to be a success. This is so black and white and doesnt explain the real issue that its too much sugar that is bad, not sugar itself. Now im always going on about reducing the sugar in the diet, no molasses, appropriate grass varieties, etc but i like to think i explain why rather than just saying sugar is evil. This is another example of the 'fanaticism' yorksg talks about, alongside farriers are rubbish because they dont talk about hoof boots! It puts me off!:( I have shod and unshod horses but I am not yet convinced about the trimmers worth.
 
I'm so glad I don't have this problem, mine see the farrier every 6 months for a RASP , they don't need any more... Mickey's not been trimmed in 18 months.

But I'm a huge believer that barefoot is the way in 90% of cases. I believe shoes have their place with horses who have 'bad' (for want of a better word) feet but that the majority would do better barefoot.
As for the removal of shoes, people have the shoes taken off, the horse is a bit sore for a few days and they have the shoes put back on... why? If you were wearing little platforms on your feet 24/7 wouldn't you be a little sore through the leg and back after you took them off (because the shoe would change the way you walked naturally). Give them time.

I would rasp myself, but I don't know how or where to learn. I know mickey's feet inside out (not the little un's so well as we've only had him a few months), but a tidy up I'd do if I had the confidence and know how. Not trimming though.
 
If you have a look in the book "Feet First" by Sarah Braithwaite and Nic Barker, you will find an excellent set of references. You can look it up on Amazon. It's a good backgrounder.

It is interesting to see the polarised opinions on trimmers and the comments made by folks like TeddyT - they don't really relate to my experience of (UKNHCP mainly) trimmers whom I have always found to be knowledgeable and very balanced in their approach.

These guys do invest a lot of personal time and money and effort in getting trained, and it always seems a bit unfair to have the labels "fanatics" or other similarly perjorative terms applied to them - even more so when they seem to be applied by folks who may not have used a good trimmer.

alongside farriers are rubbish because they dont talk about hoof boots! It puts me off!
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I have never heard any of the UKNHCP trimmers refer to farriers in this manner.
 
teddyt/shils, I believe that liverpool is doing a study with nic barker which they hope to publish (I think it might be navi based iirc). I will be very interested to read it if/when they do.
 
There is a study being done on navicular syndrome and barefoot, http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/Rockley_Farm/Research.html

There are also a LOT of case studies, logical arguments and pretty pictures out there. It is easy to see that things are different and that (to me at least) a lot of the basics are logical. Matching pedal bone angle to hoof wall angle and supporting it with the sole and frog reducing strain on the laminae for example seems logical and there are case studies to support it. However I have found it very difficult to find any peer reviewed Research with a capital R in EVJ or similar with published results not just published conclusions from what someone has 'seen'.

I was actually trying to do some questionaire based research myself to draw together the case studies people always come up with in threads like this into some sort of statistical information but have found very little interest beyond about 6 people.
 
brucea said:
These guys do invest a lot of personal time and money and effort in getting trained, and it always seems a bit unfair to have the labels "fanatics" or other similarly perjorative terms applied to them - even more so when they seem to be applied by folks who may not have used a good trimmer.
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As have farriers! You only have to look through this and other threads to see examples of farrier bashing from people who trim. e.g.-

I pay an awful lot more attention to foot balance than any farrier I have ever given £20 for a trim, who will completely gut out the foot by removing half the frog and sole callous, and trim the foot as if he were going to put on a shoe...... he will not watch the horse move unless asked to but certainly not for the benefit of the trim.
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I have had some bad luck with farriers over the years and in particular with their attitude/egos. There are few round here that i would let near my horses. But they have still had many years training and are regulated. With trimmers, they have much less training, unregulated etc. I have called trimmers fanatics because tbh thats how they come across to me. I have an open mind but i wont just take someones word for something if they make strong claims, i want proof! And, whether you believe it or not, trimmers do tend to say that farriers cant trim unshod horses because they are used to dealing with shod ones. Ive heard it many times. Unfortunately by making claims with no firm evidence and by always saying farriers dont know what to do with barefoot horses, trimmers lose credibility in my eyes, even if there are one or two good ones about.

Again, people on here have said they will rasp but not trim. Well you can still unbalance the foot with a rasp! Yes, you can take more foot off quicker by trimming but 'just' using a rasp doesnt make it ok in my eyes to go near a horses feet unless you are well trained. And by well trained i dont mean a few hours guidance from someone else and reading one or two books, as has been suggested is ok.

Still no one has answered my challenge. To an educated trimmer the answer should be easy! I will have to eat the cake myself :) The answer to anyone who's interested is address the mediolateral imbalance- a common problem. ;) Theres learning about feet and theres learning about feet :)
 
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