Who trims their own horses feet?

ester said:
teddyt/shils, I believe that liverpool is doing a study with nic barker which they hope to publish (I think it might be navi based iirc). I will be very interested to read it if/when they do.
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Yes, i am interested in it too. The basis looks very good


There are also a LOT of case studies, logical arguments and pretty pictures out there. It is easy to see that things are different and that (to me at least) a lot of the basics are logical. Matching pedal bone angle to hoof wall angle and supporting it with the sole and frog reducing strain on the laminae for example seems logical and there are case studies to support it. However I have found it very difficult to find any peer reviewed Research with a capital R in EVJ or similar with published results not just published conclusions from what someone has 'seen'.
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I agree. And im a nerd, so i want proper evidence. :p
 
I have a farrier out to mine, and a properly trained and qualified farrier not someone who has done a weekend course on trimming feet :D

My horses feet had been ruined by someone thinking they were an expert and trimming the feet themselves just to save a bit of money. Nearly 3 years on my farrier is still having to work hard on them. When he first saw her feet he said that it is a problem that is getting increasingly common and he is having to fix all these mistakes. It was even commented on when i had her graded for my horse.
 
mrdarcy said:
Hopefully me one day! But you're right in that the number of people doing endurance barefoot in the UK is still small (but growing every year). In this country barefoot horses have placed in 120k race rides and won 80k race rides but haven't got as far as the elusive 160k yet. In the USA they are light years ahead in barefoot in general and in barefoot endurance - but that's not surprising as the US is where the whole performance barefoot thing started. Just last year the American National 100 mile champion horse was barefoot and booted, has just come 2nd in another 100 race ride and is being aimed at the WEG. His blog is here: http://feiredhorse.blogspot.com/. The Glue-on boots are fantastic - you put them on just before the competition and remove them straight after. No risk of them coming off or rubbing. They've been used in extremely wet conditions as well as the dry and work just as well in either. They are the way forwards for the longer distances and so much better than shoes and pads.
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Thank you for answering my question - please can I add a couple of follow up questions:

What were the rides that unshod horses won at 80km and were placed at 120km? I think US and UK endurance are quite different, but some UK tracks may be more similar to US routes, which is why I am interested in the names of the rides. (I am using the term 'unshod' rather than 'barefoot' as I noted the horse in your blog link used hoof boots to compete, so couldn't be described as barefoot - if any of the horses were successful without shoes or boots, pleasedo add that information).

Also, who were the riders/horses? UK endurance at a high level is a village, really, so if I bump into them on the circuit I'd like to be able to ask them about it.

Thanks.
 
May I clarify something.

The abusing of farriers that some people have mentioned - are you sure those guilty of that are actually professional trimmers?

I use UKNHCP trimmers (with success) because I was not happy with the service the local farriers provided. That is my choice.

I have never heard a UKNHCP trimmer be disrespectful about any other professional, including farriers. (However, I have witnessed the reverse happening).

I strongly agree that allowing anyone to touch any part of your horse after a weekend course is a huge mistake!

If anyone wishes to use a trimmer - please ensure they are registered with a governing body (therefore fully trained and insured) and that they have a good reputation.
 
If anyone wishes to find answers to their questions, then go forth and Google!

Why should forum members provide research evidence on their own time?

The info is all out there - go find it.
 
lillith said:
Nerds forever :)
Maybe we should start a clique? the I like the concept but need to see the numbers clique.
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yup like the concept, get the theory would like someone else to check that its not all just made up ;)

tbf I am actually quite surprised that it seems to have take so long for any sort of 'proper' ... by that I mean intended to be peer reviewed and published research to be carried out on this though I have only dipped in and out of it and am still not sure what I think about it tbh.

*nerd goes back to attempting to compose own paper that she is thoroughly fed up with!*
 
I tried, I was a student at the time (6months ago) and had access to elsevier, EVJ, the american version and many other publications, I really did try. I was even told not to do my dissertation on the subject due to a lack of published material by my natural horsemanship, holistic horsemanship, equine massage therapist lecturer.

I was wondering where people were getting their 'proof' from as they keep posting that they have it.

Don't get me wrong I really like the idea of barefoot and the logic sits well and feels right to me I just can't make myself a proponent of such things without seeing the research first myself.

And for those who say there is no reseach that horses need shoes, I have found that too, but I would like to see some non-bias research with a decent sample size that offers conclusions either way.
 
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teddyt said:
One of my pet hates is when trimmers continually insist that sugar is the devil and barefoot horses mustnt have any in their diet for barefoot to be a success. This is so black and white and doesnt explain the real issue that its too much sugar that is bad, not sugar itself. Now im always going on about reducing the sugar in the diet, no molasses, appropriate grass varieties, etc but i like to think i explain why rather than just saying sugar is evil. This is another example of the 'fanaticism' yorksg talks about, alongside farriers are rubbish because they dont talk about hoof boots! It puts me off!:( I have shod and unshod horses but I am not yet convinced about the trimmers worth.
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No one says barefoot horses should have no sugar in their diet - unless they are insulin resistent horses of course - we say exactly as you have here... reduce the sugar as much as possible by not feeding molasses, being careful over turnout etc No trimmer I know says sugar is evil and leaves it at that - I, and my colleagues, advise on reducing sugar in the diet and tell our clients the reasons why.

I certainly didn't rubbish farriers for not talking about hoof boots. What I said was that hoof boots are advised for all transitioning horses and whoever is taking you through the process - farrier or trimmer - needs to know about the latest designs, how to measure and fit and ideally experienced in using hoof boots themselves. A farrier can fulfill all those things as well as a trimmer if they chose to learn.

Ultimately these arguments just go round and round - the same arguments rear up when the EDT v old school horse dentist v vet debate gets going. There are many very well trained trimmers out there now - if you've had the misfortune to come across one that isn't well trained then I apologise. I've happened upon a lot of poor farriers in my time but I don't tar all farriers with the same brush. One farrier I came across a couple of years ago was recently qualified and frankly shouldn't have been let anywhere near a horse, he couldn't balance a foot to save his life - yet someone had examined him and judged him competent. That scares me a little. But a good farrier is a very skilled person - I've done the nailing shoes onto feet bit (cadavar feet TG!) and it's not something I would ever want to attempt on a live horse. The margin of error is so tiny and how many times do you see a shod horse with nail holes a little too high up so you know the sensitive tissue will have been invaded? One time is too many IMO. But I don't rubbish good farriers - why would I... I have no wish to shoe horses and I don't hold a gun to anyones head to go the barefoot route or to use my services. Each to their own and all that.
 
Oberon said:
If anyone wishes to find answers to their questions, then go forth and Google!

Why should forum members provide research evidence on their own time?

The info is all out there - go find it.
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this has come up before I remember a v long post which cptrayes was involved in and perhaps yourself.

Google tends to provide anecdotal evidence/books which isnt really what the nerds are after (we can't help it it's ingrained!)

At the time I did a search of scientific papers but iirc nothing really came up.
 
yup, I have been out of the circle for a few months now as I no longer have the college subscription to EVJ or the other publications but books of opinion, logical arguments and case studies are just that, anecdotal evidence. Peer reviewed papers (not that some aren't abysmal) are required offer scientific and/or statistical evidence and at least have to show you the group sizes and actual results so you can judge for yourself whether creative stats were used.
 
Arabelle said:
Thank you for answering my question - please can I add a couple of follow up questions:

What were the rides that unshod horses won at 80km and were placed at 120km? I think US and UK endurance are quite different, but some UK tracks may be more similar to US routes, which is why I am interested in the names of the rides. (I am using the term 'unshod' rather than 'barefoot' as I noted the horse in your blog link used hoof boots to compete, so couldn't be described as barefoot - if any of the horses were successful without shoes or boots, pleasedo add that information).

Also, who were the riders/horses? UK endurance at a high level is a village, really, so if I bump into them on the circuit I'd like to be able to ask them about it.

Thanks.
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I disagree - a booted horse is still barefoot as at the end of the ride his boots come off and he is au naturale again. There are barefoot supporters who disagree with the use of hoof boots but I strongly disgree with them. It is possible to do a huge amount of work without boots but equally even the wild horse does not travel 100 miles in a day at the constant speeds done in endurance races. The horse in the blog does plenty of training without boots and if you look at the CU photos of his feet they are clearly healthy, barefoot hooves... meaty DC, strong frog, thick hoof wall, concave sole etc.

The 80k ER at Barbary Castle was won barefoot in 2008 - if you've ridden Barbary you'll know that it is very stony in places and considered a pretty tough ride. The UK doesn't have any rides as tough as the Tevis where barefoot/booted horses did extremely well last year (much higher % completion rate than shod horses). If you're a member of EGB log into the forum and you'll find the barefoot threads where we compare our achievements.
 
Ah, I see.

In my experience - there is very little scientific, peer reviewed, double blind test etc evidence out there.

Not many people have done that level of research and it is currently, mostly anecdotal.

I know I have tinkered with my horses and seen changes and therefore acted accordingly.

Not scientific - but then I wasn't using scientific evidence when I was shod, I was just doing what my peers did.

Scientific evidence is only as good as the belief I have in it. I prefer to keep an open mind.
 
Oberon said:
If anyone wishes to find answers to their questions, then go forth and Google!

Why should forum members provide research evidence on their own time?

The info is all out there - go find it.
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Ooo and there was me thinking we were a 'culture' of sharing.
 
Are there enough nerds out there for us to join forces on this one ....hmmmm

I have written up a questionaire type pro forma to put case studies into/send to people for information on lameness treatments whether barefoot or shod, I have had a few responses but generaly I am finding a complete lack of people willing to take part is my biggest problem. If anyone wanted in on the project I would be happy to send them the questions (feel free to criticize) and see if they could get any contacts willing to fill it out from either RL or the internet considering they will probably move in different circles to me. Any barefoot trimmers that would put in case studies of horses they have treated or farriers the same would be awesome. Then I would be happy to share the data and analyse it though if anyone else wants to play with it theres no problem there. See what we can come up with?

So far the postings on forums whether general or specificaly for barefoot people has yeilded little interest for me :( not enough nerds out there.
 
Not suprised at the direction this post has gone.

Anyhow back to the original question, no I dont and wouldnt, I pay a proffesional farrier so I can have confidence in their work.

Wouldnt attempt it myself wouldnt know how.
 
mrdarcy said:
I disagree - a booted horse is still barefoot as at the end of the ride his boots come off and he is au naturale again. There are barefoot supporters who disagree with the use of hoof boots but I strongly disgree with them. It is possible to do a huge amount of work without boots but equally even the wild horse does not travel 100 miles in a day at the constant speeds done in endurance races. The horse in the blog does plenty of training without boots and if you look at the CU photos of his feet they are clearly healthy, barefoot hooves... meaty DC, strong frog, thick hoof wall, concave sole etc.

The 80k ER at Barbary Castle was won barefoot in 2008 - if you've ridden Barbary you'll know that it is very stony in places and considered a pretty tough ride. The UK doesn't have any rides as tough as the Tevis where barefoot/booted horses did extremely well last year (much higher % completion rate than shod horses). If you're a member of EGB log into the forum and you'll find the barefoot threads where we compare our achievements.
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I don't want to get too caught up in semantics, but how can a horse wearing boots possibly be described as competing 'barefoot'? Yes, he is barefoot in the field, but during the ride he is wearing boots, so can accurately be described as 'unshod' but not 'barefoot'.

This may seem trivial, but actually, it isn't. It is important to describe things truthfully and accurately if you want your statements to have credibility.

I am a member of EGB, which is why I was suprised at your statement that barefoot horses had won 100 mile rides. I now realise these rides were in the US and the horse was wearing either boots or glue on shoes. Thank you for confirming this.
 
Oberon said:
Ah, I see.


Scientific evidence is only as good as the belief I have in it. I prefer to keep an open mind.
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yup thats the one thing I found diff as a postgrad..... never blindly believe what is written anyway... question everything. But at least if there is a paper it should have sufficient info in it for you to make some attempt at analysing the details yourself and forming your own conclusion as to the quality of the work.

ages ago there were some papers quoted on the rolkur threads with some seriously dodgy methodologies and stats when you looked at them.

Though I understand that its difficult with normal horses, navicular horses requiring treatment at least mean you can form a hypothesis before you start and comparisons can be made with conventional treatments so I can see why they are doing that.
 
Yup, thats what I mean, it is hard to analyse a case study or an opinion, at least if someone says 'we found this' AND gives you what the claim to have drawn that conclusion from you are in an informed position to say yay or nay.
 
Arabelle said:
I don't want to get too caught up in semantics, but how can a horse wearing boots possibly be described as competing 'barefoot'? Yes, he is barefoot in the field, but during the ride he is wearing boots, so can accurately be described as 'unshod' but not 'barefoot'.

This may seem trivial, but actually, it isn't. It is important to describe things truthfully and accurately if you want your statements to have credibility.

I am a member of EGB, which is why I was suprised at your statement that barefoot horses had won 100 mile rides. I now realise these rides were in the US and the horse was wearing either boots or glue on shoes. Thank you for confirming this.
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We'll have to agree to disagree - my horses are barefoot, sometimes I compete without boots sometimes with boots but they are still barefoot horses. By your definition on the days I don't use boots my horses are barefoot horses but on the days I do use hoof boots they suddenly become unshod?!!! Or what about the rides where I do one loop barefoot and one loop with boots on? And what about the training done at home without boots - does that make him barefoot during training but unshod in boots at comps? And the Glue ons are boots not shoes - there is a difference. Glue on shoes are glued on and stay on for the same length of time a normal shoe would be in place. A Glue on boot is glued on for the day of the competition only.
 
Oberon said:
If anyone wishes to find answers to their questions, then go forth and Google!

Why should forum members provide research evidence on their own time?

The info is all out there - go find it.
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You see, its attitudes like that that spoil the debate. If you have a good point of view and keep saying there is evidence then give it! Otherwise you have zero credibility.

Barefoot is useless, hoof boots don't work, trimmers are all a bunch of cranks, lameness increases if you use a trimmer instead of a farrier..... Theres plenty of evidence out there, so i know what im talking about. just google it, i cant be bothered to give you the references that are proof of these claims. :rolleyes:

There are several people on this thread who are experienced in reviewing research and would like to have firm evidence on many of the claims. Nothing wrong with that. lillith is spot on-

Yup, thats what I mean, it is hard to analyse a case study or an opinion, at least if someone says 'we found this' AND gives you what the claim to have drawn that conclusion from you are in an informed position to say yay or nay.
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Srry Oberon but saying go find it yourself is pathetic
 
What sort of studies are you after teddyt? I'll go and have a dig through all my materials and try and find some references if you can give me an idea of what exactly you're looking for....

Equally it would be good to be pointed in the direction of studies done with shod horses to show the same things you're looking for in unshod horses.
 
I speak for myself and my horses only.

I don't need anyones approval or to have credibility.

My horses and I are happy.

And please don't become aggressive - it is not neccessary.
 
lillith said:
Are there enough nerds out there for us to join forces on this one ....hmmmm

I have written up a questionaire type pro forma to put case studies into/send to people for information on lameness treatments whether barefoot or shod, I have had a few responses but generaly I am finding a complete lack of people willing to take part is my biggest problem. If anyone wanted in on the project I would be happy to send them the questions (feel free to criticize) and see if they could get any contacts willing to fill it out from either RL or the internet considering they will probably move in different circles to me. Any barefoot trimmers that would put in case studies of horses they have treated or farriers the same would be awesome. Then I would be happy to share the data and analyse it though if anyone else wants to play with it theres no problem there. See what we can come up with?

So far the postings on forums whether general or specificaly for barefoot people has yeilded little interest for me :( not enough nerds out there.
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Lillith - you should consider reaching out to Nic Barker at Rockley Farm - she will be able to point you in the rigth direction for folks. Or go to the UKNHCP forum where you can access these folks directly.
 
Lol thanks for the directions but I have allready emailed both and though Nic replyed once I haven't heared from her since and the UK NHCP didn't reply either, I may well phone them but at the moment I only have a mobile and am a bit short on quids for credit.
 
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