Who went to Hartpury?

lesleypg said:
I was there for the dressage part of the day, proably a bit boring fir you jumping and eventing types
;-) so very interesting horses , some I though a little ordinary , not sure what they would have to give in terms of type and movement but others were outstanding.
Temperament is to me vital and there again were some really special ones.
I'm afraid I'm not a fan if the stallions that stand at Hartbury , for reasons above
I was disappointed not to see Future Illusion under saddle?
Especially when the three year old Super Tramp was ridden having only been broken a few weeks!
Click to expand...

I own a stallion that stands at Hartpury and while I realise this is your personal opinion I don't think you should discredit stallions that have been approved for breeding on a public forum.
My young stallion (Sandro's Dancer) has an outstanding performance record for anyone to look up on the BD website. He is 8 this year and will be making his PSG debut later in the year. His oldest progeny are 3 this time so are as yet unproven but are looking very exciting with his excellent hindleg and uphill way of going. As for temperament, my 7yr old daughter can groom him and has also sat on him bareback in the stable, he has travelled in a trailer alongside a gelding and I have ridden him in a field with only a strip of electric tape between a mare and foal in the field next door. I think that makes for an outstanding temperament.
 
For those questioning Future Illusions temperament. I've met him on a few occasions, both at events (one of which I had a mare in season) and at Jeanette Brakewells. Every time he has been pleasant and well mannered, he is pretty laid back about things, on more than one occasion he was on the lorry with another stallion.

He accident was very unfortunate (he got badly cast) and has possibly terminated his career as an eventer.

I used him on an event pony mare and have produced what seems to be a nice colt (should make 15.2/3). He seems quick to learn and knows his boundaries, although the mare does have an exceptional temperament.

I chose FI, mainly because I wanted to refine the mare (she is largely native) and I wanted to add height but not too much. I wasn't too worried about his event record (he was only 6 when I chose him) as I felt I was buying his genes rather than the stallion himself. His bloodlines are familiar to me as I also have an Opposition mare.

I'm hoping to get to SSGB this weekend, starting the process of window shopping for something to suit said Oppy mare as unfortunately the pony mare developed ligament problems in the very late stages of pregnancy despite retiring from eventing aged 16 fit and well. It's unlikely her legs will cope well with the additional weight of a pregnancy, coupled with the slackening affect of the hormones prior to birth. Shame really as she has given un a great foal and is a good mum.
 
Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
 
lesleypg said:
.

Frankly Sugar is a nice dressage horse not enough 'stallion' about him for me.
A good stallion must clearly be that , he can be pretty but he must stand out as male and a few didn't do that for me
Sad about Future Illusion because that showing did him no good. It would have been better to not show him in that situation as he looked unsettled and not very compliant. With his excellent but often unpredictable bloodlines I would worry as to temperament , no doubt he is a lovely stamp , I hope he had a better time at Addington!!
Click to expand...

Mmmm - those two remarks would appear to be rather contradictory! So Franklyn Sugar had not enough 'stallion' (I assume that means he was behaving beautifully rather than standing on his hind legs displaying his 'charms'.) But Future Illusion can't be forgiven for being 'unsettled and not very compliant' when he was obviously uncomfortable with an allergic reaction!!

Me - I'll go for a stallion that is mannered enough to be mistaken for a gelding every time! Temperament is THE most important trait - and from everything I've heard of the horse, his temperament is superb!
 
So Lesleypg a stallion that performs, looks great and has excellent manners is not "man" enough?!

You also mentioned other stallions being too hot?! ...confused by your post. what are you looking for exactly?
 
lesleypg said:
Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
Click to expand...

Yes, you're entitled to your opinion - but it would help if it was grammatical!

And what IS this obsession with 'masculine'? What does it MEAN (other than that the horse has two testicles and can 'rise to the occasion'?

In my view, a very masculine stallion is one who is randy, high spirited, possibly aggressive - NOT traits I select for!
 
LilMissy said:
I couldnt go unfortunately, family emergency just as I was about to leave :(

Anybody got any opinions on Mr Big Cat and Wish Upon A Star?
Click to expand...

Mr Big Cat is a lovely stamp of horse, like a refined warmblood type, didnt wow me jumping but after seeing the sjumpers 1st it was a tough act to follow!!
 
LynneB said:
there is a post on FB from Future Illusion's owner saying he had an allergic reaction to something and came out in spots all over. They had the emergency vet to him who gave him a jab but it didn't work in time, so they had to show him inhand instead of ridden as the rash was also under his saddle and girth areas. He is at SSGB this coming weekend though and hopefully all cleared up. Such a shame when you drive them that far to be seen though.
Click to expand...

I saw him the stables, bless him he was covered from head to toe in spots!!! such a poppet in the stable though.
 
Wow.. Surely the fact a stallion has such a superb temperament and is trainable is one of the most important factors when choosing a sire.
So tbh i realy dnt see where you are coming from!!
Also some Stallions dnt always compete due to other circumstances, however their progeny can speak high volumes for their ability to become top class sires.
So just think before you post comments that are actually quite offencive and upsetting to owners and breeders.
I have only ever commented twice in this forum, and sadly both times have been to very disheartening comments. Please praise the stallions we have in this country and as owners of british bred horses, we should be proud, and I for one hope that we keep producing level heading trainable horses, not ones that can noy be handled but look pretty!!!
 
Frankly Sugar is a nice dressage horse not enough 'stallion' about him for me. A good stallion must clearly be that said:
He looked stallion enough for me when i saw him in the stable, i would also prefer a stallion who came out of the stable with manners and know he is out to be ridden and worked rather than jump around and be hung onto and lunged to settle him?? I know he would be on my list if a bred dressage horses.
Click to expand...
 
There were stallions that exhibited 'type' and managed to be well behaved rideable and have proven offspring !
Stallions have to be outstanding as they genetically have a huge influence , there are too many stallions that are good sport horses but not necessarily good progenators
 
starryeyes said:
Mr Big Cats stud fee is £500 LFG.

I'm seriously considering using him on my 3/4 bred mare this year but i'm browsing to see who else is out there before any decisions are made.

I think if you're looking to breed an eventer he will add the speed and injection of TB into the mix. My only doubts are that he isn't "stallion" enough and is quite an ordinary horse, nice but nothing overly special that really makes you go 'wow'.

I didn't see him in stables & i have to confess i couldn't overly remember him the next day, but thats possibly because nothing majorly stood out that would suit my mare.

===================================================================

Mr Big Cat made me stop outside and look back, he was impressive coming out of the lorry, i love my warmbloods and i thought he was untill i saw who was on him, didnt overly shine once he was in the ring, to me he just settled to the job at hand and that was to work?
Click to expand...
 
I filled in for Sandro's Dancer's usual rider last minute and only sat on him twice before and thought what an absolute smashing stallion he is. He took to a different rider instantly and he was a joy to do. Yes, we did have some problems in the arena as he is usually worked in there without trade stands, lights etc and we all know what horses make of 'their' arena's being different...and they are not machines. As much as I do agree with everyone having their own opinions, I also second that we should appreciate the talent we have in this country. Not every stallion will suit every mare or 'owner' (for that matter) but I think we should look at the good in each one rather than JUST the negative. As a foreigner (from Germany) I am used to and was always told to look at positives in horses/stallions and I sometimes find that here in England a lot of people will only look at the negatives rather than the big picture
 
I was thinking of organising a bonkathon, we could have all the stallions booked for a collecting slot and judge how masculine they are! What do you think?
[Might be hard to work out the timetable, mine vary between 12 seconds and 15 minutes!!!
 
shirleyno2 said:
I was thinking of organising a bonkathon, we could have all the stallions booked for a collecting slot and judge how masculine they are! What do you think?
[Might be hard to work out the timetable, mine vary between 12 seconds and 15 minutes!!!
Click to expand...

Oh thankyou for that laugh!!!!

I am so very glad its not only me that's been getting confused about just what is being looked for.

As far as I can see these stallions are, with the possible exception of some of the youngsters, competition horses who are used to having to work and to concentrate on the job in hand - often in close proximity to other horses. I would expect them, while under saddle and being asked to work, to concentrate on the job in hand. And the ones I saw did just that.

Nor did it surprise me that some of the stallions who were shown in hand for their various reasons tended to be more on their toes. They were not in quite such a clear cut "work" situation.

I don't see that as being a reflection on their masculinity. And I'm not especially interested in overt machismo, in any species!
 
Without jumping on any bandwagons, I saw Franklyn Sugar last year at Addington, he was far from ordinary. He & Spirit were on my short list, both very very nice horses. I felt that a stallion should have the wow factor, but that is only any good if he then passes on decent genes. A stallion that lacked the "Wow" appeal to me that day, has had some very nice offspring, that is what counts.

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but sometimes we have to be prepared to eat our words!! I will find out in about 6wks if I will be doing just that!
 
I went to hartpury this weekend and i have to say how well behaved all the boys were and happy to say hello when we were walking around the stables. Not sure why people are putting stallions on a pedestal and expecting them to misbehave. Had a great day, lovely to chat to people and i think i have found my boy but i am not going to mention as i dont really want to hear peoples opinions or putting off.
We have some amazing stallions these days and i think we should support the breeders/owners not slate them!
 
shirleyno2 said:
I was thinking of organising a bonkathon, we could have all the stallions booked for a collecting slot and judge how masculine they are! What do you think?
[Might be hard to work out the timetable, mine vary between 12 seconds and 15 minutes!!!
Click to expand...

I think you just made me waste a mouthful of VERY nice red - not what I'd normally use to clean my computer screen!:D
 
Harriephebs said:
I went to hartpury this weekend and i have to say how well behaved all the boys were and happy to say hello when we were walking around the stables. Not sure why people are putting stallions on a pedestal and expecting them to misbehave. Had a great day, lovely to chat to people and i think i have found my boy but i am not going to mention as i dont really want to hear peoples opinions or putting off.
We have some amazing stallions these days and i think we should support the breeders/owners not slate them!
Click to expand...

That's what it should all be about...a shop window for breeders choosing the right stallions for their mare....not other stallion owners or riders putting others down. Congratulations, Harriephebs, I am pleased you found the right one, whoever he may be :)
 
Harriephebs said:
I went to hartpury this weekend and i have to say how well behaved all the boys were and happy to say hello when we were walking around the stables. Not sure why people are putting stallions on a pedestal and expecting them to misbehave. Had a great day, lovely to chat to people and i think i have found my boy but i am not going to mention as i dont really want to hear peoples opinions or putting off.
We have some amazing stallions these days and i think we should support the breeders/owners not slate them!
Click to expand...

Well said Harriephebs, I too saw lots of lovely stallions, would be very happy to have them in my stable and only wish I had a few more mares to cover!
 
lesleypg said:
Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
Click to expand...

I'd just like to make it clear that Franlyn Sugar was 'manly enough' to cover both of my mares last year. They were both maiden mares and both took first time. I'd say that's quite 'manly'. My mares are fat, healthy and happy with foals due in April and May. Well done Frank!
 
smccullo said:
I'd just like to make it clear that Franlyn Sugar was 'manly enough' to cover both of my mares last year. They were both maiden mares and both took first time. I'd say that's quite 'manly'. My mares are fat, healthy and happy with foals due in April and May. Well done Frank!
Click to expand...

Again smccullo...well done for making a choice right for you and your girls...good luck and a much appreciated comment :)
 
Last edited:
If I am being honest when I am choosing stallions or helping other people choose stallions the bit that I always try and remove from the equation is the "something extra" or masculinity if you like of the stallion. Stallions will often look somehow more than they are because of this and it easy to overlook glitches in so many areas because of the presence and shine. I didn't go to Hartpury but for my money it is positive that these stallions seem to be able to come out and show the performance horse that mare owners get for their money as in reality most foals will not be kept as entire stallions so will not have that Xfactor passed down from their sire so they had better be passing down a trot for a 10 or massive, clean jump or the canter your mare really needs, solid joints or the whole package. The shiny stallioness is just there to help you spend your money and I don't really think is any indication of what else the stallion brings to the table in terms of progenation.
 
I would suggest how masculine a stallion is matters little compared to what it brings to the table genetically. I suspect it is a bit of a myth that a stallion has to be a bit of a **** to be a good producer. The stallion with the right brain can differentiate for work and play and the brain is a major part of what you are looking for in producing a sport horse or all alrounder. You put any entire infront of a mare in season and I suspect they will be masculine enough :)
 
There does seem to be a lot of confusion about what masculine means as an attribute for a stallion.

Experienced stallion graders who are used to looking at a wide range of stallions across a wide range of studbooks look for masculinity expressed visually and temperamentally in a number of ways, the relative importance of which differs according the type and discipline for which the stallion is intended / is competing. They also recognise that some bloodlines -- however successful they are as sires -- do not actually look (or behave) in such an upfront macho way as others but are still very likely to have prepotence (hopefully positive) that is the real hallmark of a successful stallion.

As someone who sees rather more stallion candidates than most -- and who is asked that almost impossible question of their owners 'Will he pass?' quite frequently (to which I have to reply ' It depends on the inspecting judges on the day (plus any performance test requirements) and the current policy of the studbook' the one thing I do have to make clear to the owners is whether, bearing in mind the type / studbook / discipline of the stallion concerned he has the masculinity that the grading judges require. Bearing in mind that some breeds (esp Trakheners and their close relatives the Swedish Warmbloods) are late maturing (both physically and mentally) and tend to have 'prettier' head than other breeds, any assessment of them for masculinity has to take that into account and to my eyes Sandros Dancer (for instance) is well within the acceptable criteria, especially bearing in mind that he has Master blood in him plus a large dash of TB via Sandro Hit. Similarly, while some dressage-based studbooks place considerable emphasis on the amount of crest and well defined muscularity the stallion shows through forearm and stifle -- and TBH an great deal of huffing and puffing 'presence' -- this is not necessary for a showjumping stallion (who must remain calm in the collecting ring during endless jump offs to maintain his energy) such as a Selle Francais or the eventer, who will probably have more TB in his veins to meet the galloping demands of the discipline and will therefore certainly have less crest and less overt muscling than his dressage or showjumping counterparts.

A further complication is that many of the top TB stallions show little of the warmblood type masculinity but a great deal of hot temperament so their stallion 'attitude' is certainly not in doubt. As a result, it actually took the European warmblood studbooks quite a while to realise that TB stallions that did not conform to their existing visual concepts of masculinity could actually be very successful prepotent stallions. However, once they did take that on board they began to accept exactly the sort of TB stallions they needed to lighten / modernise their studbooks and that is when we all had to start to look to our laurels, especially the eventing breeders.

So the lesson is, just becuiase the stallion doesn't look like a 'traditional' warmblood stallion (whatever that is) don't dismiss it without looking at the prepotency inherent in its own sire lines -- good stallions never come from stallion lines with poor prepotency -- and always bear in mind the market for which he is intended and the criteria of the studbook from which it comes.

One final point, the Futuity deliberately does not have a section for masculinity / feminity in its assessment criteria. This is becuase this attribute has little or no influence on performance (except that an unruly colt may well need to be gelded in order to perform in competition to the best of its physical ability) and masculinity and feminity are seen as important factors in studbook assessments FOR BREEDING and should therefore be left to them. OTOH, this can lead to confusion when a highly marked animal scores much less well in its grading or studbook assessment, but in such cases the conformation, paces etc assessents are usually pretty similar (ie high) but it is the masculinity / femininity score that lets the animal down in its grading. I have no problem with this as this supports the claims of the animal as a competition horse / pony (and as agood performance representative of its sire and dam) while emphasising the difference that marks out a potentially top class breeding animal from others of equal performance talent but less merit as a member of the breeding herd.

To quite Dr Haring's words 'A stallion is a competition horse PLUS' and it is the plus (in all its different forms) that we are discussing here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top