Why are half bred horses ok but half bred dogs aren't?!

[ycbm]

I'm not launching an attack But you did mention a bitch that was bred every year which isnt recommended and probably isnt responsible. Anyone who wants a crossbred dog can find one without buying one thats been bred on purpose.

I echo the person who said that labradoodles etc always seem to be the ones running riot when out on walks!

But nobody has explained to me why it is irresponsible to have one litter per year from a bitch. She would be in pup eight weeks, mothering eight weeks, and eight months of the year pup free. So why is that unethical? It surely can't be compared with puppy farming? This is a serious question. I don't understand.

Yes you can find a cross breed if you want one, but if it's a puppy and you don't see its parents, you've no real idea what the dog will turn into, have you?

Puppy farming is evil, but they are farming 'pedigree' dogs as well as 'designer' crosses. It's not a problem which has been created by demand for labradoodles and cocker poos, is it?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

But then the point to breeding a horse is that it will have a 'use' to us. How many dogs are bred, via what ever route, with an intended purpose beyond being pets, or ornaments? Few, I'd suggest.

I'm with you in that the obscure and sometimes weird crosses, seem to be rather pointless, beyond creating trinkets. If it hasn't happened, in time someone will AI a Dachshund dog to a Great Dane bitch.

Alec.

arguably dogs have a use too-even as family pets we want them to be healthy, long lived, sound and not mental although they cost a little less to keep than the equine equivalent.

obviously some pedigrees are mental and not healthy but people possibly buy the half breeds because they think they are getting guaranteed hybrid vigour.

 

[Dobiegirl]

So if I understand you, then in your view it's impossible for anyone to ever ethically breed a cocker spaniel crossed with a poodle?

Do you have the same problem with people breeding horses, and if not, why not?

For the person who said if they wanted a poodle coat they would buy a poodle, my friend's miniature and standard KC poodles don't 'do it' for me at all. I don't like their characters or the way they look. But I love cocker poos and if I wanted a dog I'd certainly consider one from a home that breeds ethically. Different folks for different strokes

I never said that as well you know, if people have to breed then it should be ethically done as others have said umpteen times on this thread. You also didnt read my post as regards the horses either and its laughable although you dont like the character of Poodles but love Cockerpoos which are half Poodle and will have some of their character, it doesnt make sense and neither do you.

 

[ycbm]

I apologise that I misunderstood you. I really did think you were saying that it was always unethical to breed a cocker poodle cross.

I'm sorry if that offended you.

 

[CorvusCorax]

It's not as simple as eight months pup free, bitches can take a long time to come back after breeding. Which has been explained by MurphysMinder.

Also, a bitch has two seasons a year. Breeding once a year is only one less than breeding the bitch back to back, which I find abhorrent.

 

[splashgirl45]

But nobody has explained to me why it is irresponsible to have one litter per year from a bitch. She would be in pup eight weeks, mothering eight weeks, and eight months of the year pup free. So why is that unethical? It surely can't be compared with puppy farming? This is a serious question. I don't understand.

Yes you can find a cross breed if you want one, but if it's a puppy and you don't see its parents, you've no real idea what the dog will turn into, have you?



Puppy farming is evil, but they are farming 'pedigree' dogs as well as 'designer' crosses. It's not a problem which has been created by demand for labradoodles and cocker poos, is it?

they may do some purebreds but unfortunately the designer dogs are the majority as these people are in it for the money and designer dogs are sold for much more than pedigrees as was shown on the puppy programme last night when the man bought a poo type dog for a huge amount of money, I think it was about £800.

 

[{97702}]

I see that as always your paranoia is alive, well and articulating itself on this thread YMCA - just to let you know, not everything has to be about you.....

 

[ycbm]

I see that as always your paranoia is alive, well and articulating itself on this thread YMCA - just to let you know, not everything has to be about you.....

Well thank goodness for that Apologies for having misunderstood you.

 

[Alec Swan]

Generally, and not just on here, those who wish to establish their own point will concentrate on the extremes, and all so often taking their arguments to the point of offering insults. To accuse ycbm of paranoia is offensive and serves no purpose and an apology would be in order, though unlikely to be offered. Few on here are qualified to judge the mental state of anyone, very few, despite their own experiences.

The argument which has been offered that bitches cycle twice a year makes for little sense. I've had a great many dogs over the years and many of them females, and I've yet to have one which cycles, once mature, any more often than annually. I've also had collie bitches which have been out and working with pups of 5-6 weeks, so given a suitable exercise regime, there is no earthly reason why any bitch shouldn't give birth on an annual basis. I should add, that I've only ever bred to produce the pup that I want, and then the surplus are sold. Have I shown a profit over the stud fee and the cost of rearing the pups? Of course I have, and I'm not ashamed of that.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

All of our females have had two seasons.

A lot of the posts on this thread make no sense to me but there you go.

 

[Dobiegirl]

All of our females have had two seasons.

So have ours and have been different breeds, Corgi,Beagle,Collie,Lancashire Heelers, Dobermanns and a Battersea mongrel.

 

[Alec Swan]

It's interesting that others have experiences other than mine, and genuinely so. The simple fact is that once mature (an important point because early cycles can be all over the place!), I cannot remember a bitch cycling more frequently than annually. It obviously happens, just not with any of mine!

Alec.

 

[planete]

Sighthound/lurcher type bitches usually only cycle once a year or even every eighteen months, particularly if they are hard worked.

I agree with various points made by opposing sides but rather think that breeding responsibly, and moderately, for an honest profit is not a crime. After all, without breeders, domestic dogs would cease to exist. Greed, and disregard of welfare are crimes tough. Unfortunately, it would appear that pedigree and cross breed breeders can be equally guilty.

Buyers should also shoulder a certain amount of responsibility. I am very sympathetic to anybody who hankers after a dog, but most dogs in rescue are not there through a breeders fault but through the buyer's inadequacy. So far all of my foster lurchers have been failed by their owners. They were abandoned, given up on, got in the way, or even abused through no fault of their own.

Most dogs are bought as pets now. Should we not consider "petdom" as a new valid 'working category' perhaps and make trainability and an equable temperament a more important attribute than looks nowadays for anything that is not going to actively work? We could have 'working trials' for a pet category that would test dogs suitability as family pets, any mongrel or pedigree could take part. Just a thought! It might shift the emphasis from looks to personality eventually and help educate people.

 

[PingPongPony]

I don't have a problem with cross breeds as such if they are responsibly bred of course but then again I have a problem with irresponsible breeding, whether its of a cross breed or a pedigree.
What I do have a problem with is the common misconception that (and I am purely quoting things that have been said to me before)
1. my cavapoo is so much healthier than your toy poodle because they were bred to have the best of both breeds. *smacks head against wall*

2. my friend has a cockapoo, i'm gonna get one too because they're such an amazing BREED (lists all the amazing qualities that this ''breed'' has) and when asked if pup will be from same parents as her friends dog, nope. i then calmly explain that they're not a breed as such and they cannot expect to get a dog exactly like her friends as there is no typical ''breed'' characteristics (i know getting same dog isn't possible even when you do have a pedigree but you have more of an idea of what you can expect)

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have a problem with the common misconceptions that a lot of people seem to have, and this is purely down to how popular these designer dog names have become and the fact that more people hear about them, it has a cute unique name so it must be a breed. It's not the dogs themselves that irritate me, it's the people, as more and more people go for a designer breed because they are being told silly thing like ''they have the best of both breeds so no health problems'' bla bla bla.

As to the cross bred horses vs cross bred dogs. In the recent years there has been an increase of horses being bred for their colour eg. palomino, cremello etc. that apparently also makes that horse worth £1000 more automatically. Nevermind the fact its legs are really wonky so it's practically crippled for life, or that it lashes out at every human that comes close because well it's dad did that too, but he was a pretty colour so who cares right? Is this okay? Of course not, I don't agree with this at all just as I don't agree with breeding any animals without careful consideration as to the purpose of the offspring (be it working, pet etc) and of course health testing the parents.
I do think that half bred horses are more 'okay' because more consideration goes into the breeding, there are a lot less horses being bred to be a pet, therefore more thought goes into their characteristics and what it is that you're trying to achieve in the foal, whereas with dogs, it seems that as long as you have something that resembles a poodle and something that resembles a cocker spaniel (just as an example) then you're good to go. It's not as easy for Mr.Smith down the road to go out and breed a foal, call it a designer name and sell it for a lot of money, however if Mr.Smith wanted to breed a designer dog, it'll be a lot simpler for him to do so.

I'm rambling again! To summarise; any irresponsible breeding is bad, be it as dog, horse, cow, hamster or whatever else, an irresponsibly bred horse isn't any more okay than irresponsibly bred dog easier to breed dogs = more badly bred dogs

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Morally and ethically, I would find it very suspect to breed a dog annually-to what purpose? Purely for profit? That will wear down a bitch and as mentioned, it takes a while for a dog to recover. Equally, churning out foals annually would make me sad. I see a breeder I know do this and regardless of quality and health of parents, I don't see the point.

The amount of dogs in rescue would make me query constant breeding and using pet animals to fund your income strikes me as abhorrent. The whole designer thing has seen many dodgy breeders who are in for profit churn out pups to puppy farmer standards. There's a particularly foil bloke in The UK who uses the dogs he boards as studs and produces bassets X sharpeis with Queen Anne legs, horrific conformation. Of course he charges stupid money.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

It's interesting that others have experiences other than mine, and genuinely so. The simple fact is that once mature (an important point because early cycles can be all over the place!), I cannot remember a bitch cycling more frequently than annually. It obviously happens, just not with any of mine!

Alec.

Possibly silent seasons. It would be very unusual for a bitch to only have one season annually.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I'm not going to comment further on someone breeding a litter every year purely to make money. However ycbm you say you love cockerpoos and would consider having one - can I ask what sort of cockerpoo ? The cross is quite popular in agility because they are often active , intelligent dogs. They compete across the size range, some in small, some in medium and I have seen a couple who are standard height. Some have poodle like coats, some soft wavy coats and some wiry terrier like coats. So my point is how can anyone choose this and similar crosses because they like the "breed", its a complete gamble in my experience how the dog will turn out, even from the same litter.

 

[paddi22]

i just don't get the point of breeding unless you've an absolutely spectacular dog or need it for a specific purpose. Same wth horses.

I alwasy wanted a retriever but wouldn't justify paying a breeder when there are so many dogs in rescue shelters. Waited round for a few months and eventually got a fantastic 2 year old retriever from a rescue. Gorgeous dog, exactly what we want. Of course I would have loved a puppy to train, but the benefits of saving a good dog outweigh the losses of having a cute puppy. We have beautiful family pet now and i'm delighted i didn't go an spent 400 quid and instead saved a good dog.

 

[Alec Swan]

I believe that dogs are bred for one of two reasons, discounting accidents!

Firstly, to promote the breed or type and so test the breeder's beliefs or theories, which will be tested or promoted, and/or ……..

Secondly, to make money with no thought to anything other than that.

Over the years I've had others ask for an opinion, and I've asked them why they're of the opinion that they are, and generally they've come back with the reply "Because that's what the breeder told me". Pointing out that the quote and so the breeder are quite wrong, sometimes comes as a surprise. The stories and quotes which I could offer would astound you!

It's my belief, and I accept that it's a generalisation, but perhaps 10% of those who breed dogs actually know what they're doing, or even care. The remainder have bought a bitch, put her in pup and are suddenly elevated to the lofty position of being a 'Breeder'. They are of course, just that, a 'breeder', but any success will be a case of luck, and little else, with failure being the more likely result.

**As a disclaimer** Those on here who've bred a dog or two, one in particular, simply by their presence here, would have opinions which should be considered. Sadly though, in the wider world, be their products pure bred or not, most breeders do the dogs which they promote a grave disservice, and certainly in the pedigree market, their offerings are the evidence. Considering the pedigree market, the Kennel Club are not fit for purpose.

Alec.

 

[MagicMelon]

I'm really struggling to understand what is wrong with breeding from good parents for colour and cuteness. The cocker poos and labradoodles I know are all delightful dogs utterly adored by their owners.

Many of the pedigree dogs, on the other hand, look to me as if they are approaching being deformed.

Nothing should be bred just because they are cute and lovely? All horse cross breeds have a job to do? Tell that to my completely loved and cherished miniature paint Shetland. Shock, horror, she's my toy as far as I'm concerned.

Price is only an indicator of demand. These dogs aren't overpriced, they sell at that price because people want them

There is so much snobbery in dog breeding, thankfully it isn't the same level in cats, where most of us own moggies.

Whilst I'm not really into colour, I couldnt care less what colours my animals are or how particularily cute they are But saying that my labradoodle is just the perfect family dog. I decided to go for one because I liked the general temperaments of labradors and poodles so the mix is great. I agree, surely pedigree dog breeding is worse as they are PURELY breeding for how they look and move and not at all on their temperament. I think people need to remember that people also have other requirements - we went for a labradoodle (and pedigree Bengal cats) because they are far better for my other half who is allergic to them! He couldnt cope with our previous moggy cats and his own family dogs whereas with these he is far better. I would never have chosen to buy a cat if he hadnt had his allergy (my mother worked for the CPL for years so we've done our fair share of taking on rescues!).

I just think there's a place for all and people shouldn't be so snobby about these half breeds calling them "mutts" in a derogatory fashion.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If the mentioned bitch is bred every year, the litters are of average size and the pups are sold locally, and they're not registered, no proof of who is who, is there not a worry about quite close interbreeding down the line? That's often a criticism of 'pedigree' breeders, is it not....

Ps There's only a 50/50 change that a first cross will be hypoallergenic.

 

[Alec Swan]

Sighthound/lurcher type bitches usually only cycle once a year or even every eighteen months, particularly if they are hard worked.

…….. .

I don't and never have had dogs simply as pets, so you may well have a valid point in that bitches which are truly 'fit' would be less likely to cycle twice yearly. I'm not sure, but I can only speak from my own experience.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

There's another aspect to consider; Not all, but many breeders know, all too well, that the buyer of a pup will 'fall-in-love' with the pup and when the problems arise, as they often do, then the owner/buyer is highly unlikely to return the pup and demand a replacement or their money back.

Whilst many consider puppies to be household appliances, they aren't, except of course, we don't fall in love with a fridge (the contents possibly), do we?

Returning a defective fridge is a simple matter. Not so a puppy, and upon that point, many breeders are reliant.

Alec.

 

[Crackerz]

Whilst many consider puppies to be household appliances, they aren't, except of course, we don't fall in love with a fridge (the contents possibly), do we?

Alec.

I fell in love with a mug i got for Christmas, smashed it last week and was so distraught, OH ordered me the same mug which arrived yesterday - does that count??

 

[Dobiegirl]

Unfortunately these designer breeds are fuelled by the puppy farming trade, if anyone had watched the Panorama programme on Monday you will have seen this. Dealear buy these puppies and sell to unsuspecting buyers with claims they are home bred, they even loan a bitch from the puppy farm to complete the deception.

Im not being snobby about these half breeds its the trade that fuels them I hate. Magic Melon did you read the link to the guy who first thought of this cross breed, its a real eye opener and he regrets it very much.


Unfortunately and in my experience people who pay huge amounts for these dogs are in complete denial about the origins of their dog, they may well have a lovely pet dog as a result but some poor bitch and stud dog are paying a terrible price for that privilege.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Another observation is that no one really wants to think or be told they've spent too much money on something. Some tend to vent at the people who suggest that, rather than the person who charged it or themselves for not shopping around. Same goes for fridges.

 

[Luci07]

My very strong dislike of the DD label for these dogs is that people are frequently paying a premium for these dogs and assume they have the attributes they want from each breed. The first breeder who started this was specifically breeding for a purpose with healthy dogs. This has been lost by unscrupulous people jumping on the bandwagon. The animals who lose out are the dogs who become bigger/more energetic/shed hair than their owners thought and get dumped. These "breeders" are no better than the pedigree breeders who kept breeding for show over health. As for looking down on these dogs, I don't. I have Staffords...try having these as a pet if you want to know about having dogs people look down on.

 

[Alec Swan]

I fell in love with a mug i got for Christmas, smashed it last week and was so distraught, OH ordered me the same mug which arrived yesterday - does that count??

Only if you managed to interact with the said 'mug'.

Alec.

 

[splashgirl45]

Unfortunately these designer breeds are fuelled by the puppy farming trade, if anyone had watched the Panorama programme on Monday you will have seen this. Dealear buy these puppies and sell to unsuspecting buyers with claims they are home bred, they even loan a bitch from the puppy farm to complete the deception.

Im not being snobby about these half breeds its the trade that fuels them I hate. Magic Melon did you read the link to the guy who first thought of this cross breed, its a real eye opener and he regrets it very much.


Unfortunately and in my experience people who pay huge amounts for these dogs are in complete denial about the origins of their dog, they may well have a lovely pet dog as a result but some poor bitch and stud dog are paying a terrible price for that privilege.

I totally agree. I also saw the panorama programme and felt more upset for the breeding animals, what an awful life they have and how on earth do these breeders get away with what they do...at least the puppies get to see a bit of fresh air although many don't live for long according to the programme....this is the sort of thing the rspca and other organisations need to focus on and prosecute these people rather than focusing on prosecuting hunting people...the fox may have a short while of being chased these poor animals have a lifetime of bad treatment....no comparison IMO...

 

[Clodagh]

To me a cockerpoo is a mongrel, and I don't say that in a derogatory way, I have a lurcher, who is a true mutt from a travellers camp with about 50 different breeds in her genetic make up, she is fab. My OH is a retired terrierman and he has had all shapes and sizes of terriers, mostly mutts, over the years, and they have been absolutely fit for purpose.
Several of my friends have got cockerpoos, one experienced dog woman who has several other dogs,and two people who got them as subsitute children. They look alike, the siblings, and behave as you would expect any dog to behave allowing for their upbringing. I really like them, good fun sensibly sized dogs. I wouldn't want the grooming bills which are astronomical and I like dogs to have a job but as for being 'fit for purpose', they really are, they are fun active little dogs who make their owners very happy. Would I pay more than £100 for a mongrel? No. If someone else would who are we to argue?