Why are horses so cheap?

A horse is only worth what a buyer will pay.

Breeding is not cheap but you cut down on what is going out of your wallet if you have your own stallion, good land and live where the weather allows them to live out most of the year. However it has to be remembered that often what people think is profit isn't really if you look at the hidden costs such as a return on the investment of buying the land, building stables etc, if you were renting it would be a different picture. Also factoring the cost of your time looking after the mares, foals and youngsters would be substantial even if it was costed at NMW. I think amateur breeders often enjoy having youngsters and don't take into account the time taken to produce them as they do it for pleasure.

Also a lot depends on what you consider makes a horse valuable, we can all agree that healthy with correct, or at least not bad, conformation is a must but after that the rest is often down to personal choice. When you try a horse you often feel you have clicked with one, like it's way of going and can see, perhaps with some work, it fitting in with your lifestyle and riding aspirations. Another person may try the same horse and not like it at all and feel because of that it's overpriced. I have bought horses and ponies from a wide variety of sellers, professional and amateur. Some I would consider overpriced, some absolute steals but I bought them because they fitted the bill for what I was looking for at the time. The more expensive horses I have bought have all be purchased for their potential, not the stage of training they were at at the point of purchase - if I had considered that was as far as they would go I would have considered them overpriced. However I considered they had the ability and, more importantly, trainability and temperament to fit in with our yard, rider and the way we worked. Don't forget too, horses are often advertised at the price the seller would like to get but they know in reality they may not achieve it and are open to negotiation, sometimes reducing the price substantially. The difficulty with horses is no two are the same, we don't have the equivalent of the motor trades guide to prices based on mileage and condition of a particular model.

The only way forward to protect horses is to constantly keep up the drive for responsible breeding and then for those breeding to be selective in the stock they are breeding from and to breed the types that there is a market for, be that a happy hacker or a potential Badminton winner. If such horses were then sold at prices reflecting the financial input to them we could get away from cheap horses being sold to owners who cannot afford to keep them properly. However regardless of their destiny, good conformation and temperament should be essential but from then on much is down to the way they are produced - you can't legislate for bad handling or riding. All these thoughts are idealistic and I don't know how they can be enforced, the current state of affairs in this country highlights the difference between us and our European counterparts - I could be wrong but I haven't heard of a crisis like this in say Germany where breeding is much more regulated.
 
I think people have got their backs up on this post because it's about money.

For the wanting to spend 5k on a decent young horse I do think thats reasonable. If someone wanted my youngster, I'd laugh if I was offered anything less. (And would need perhaps a bit more...) He's never going to go and win HOYs, but locally 1st and 2nds, and a 5th out of a very big class, with a very respected judge who rode, and simply said keep on what your doing next year you'll at least be in the top three. He has strong conformation, he is a big, well bred sports horse, good hunter type. Slight dish due to negligent foot car as a 4yo by someone who spent 5k on him. It may straighten even more with time. Its hardly noticeable. Bold XC, will jump anything in a group, will lead over XC fences, a bit dithery and young at times in an area with fences, but balanced pleasant horse to ride, attractive, and bit bonus 120% bomb proof. This horse has seen it all, barges, trains, buses, motor way bridges, had to cross dual carriage ways, been in a big arena with a hundred people in the stands, had people walk into him at crowded shows, had horses canter into him at fun rides. ALL of this with calm understanding riding to make him confident, and educated so it know takes a lot to make my 6yo worry. He escorts older horses past things that scare them, or in situations we're unsure of a horse in traffic, you can lead children off him. SO in fairness is someone were to come and say I'll give you 2k, would seem like a joke, because while I'm not being paid by the hour doing this, a lot of my time, blood, sweat and tears have gone into his production, not even accounting money!

And I'm not well off by any means, I bought him off a friend on a payment scheme, lived off a £5 a week for groceries, and cycled everywhere some months when money was short! I have to keep him on a cheap livery yard, which makes my life harder so I can feed him the best, take him out every week in the summer, and work for a quality horse, whilst working a full time pub job. So if I were to part for him I'd want the money!

Even if he wasn't well bred from a respected stud I'd still want similar money! It is a hobby for most, but it doesn't change facts, you want a product, you've got to pay for what its made of, even if that is just effort and quality end product!
 
Interesting comments. I didn't actually state that you or anyone else is wrong and I did not recommend any of the horses be purchased. On the subject of sires, regardless of what breed, it is always worth looking at a pedigree and understanding it in relation to the requirements you may have from the potential horse you may be looking at. There is no 'may be a good stallion' in regards to the sire of the horse that you deem to be lacking in bravery and hesitant. No need to take my word, Kayf Tara needs no introduction as leading NH sire. There is nothing wrong in a young horse having a look at what he is doing and working out the problems in front of him. Intelligence v ignorant and careless, you decide. Out of the three, the Kayf Tara would be the most likely to event and/or team chase.

If you look at the skeletal structure of the horse, you will find that he does need to lower his head to allow the shoulders and forehand to lift and to enable the engine to engage. The structure of the skull is interesting as well, the horse cannot see the fence from a stride away. The horse you are saying 'drops his head over the fence' is on his forehand, that is a rider error, the horse has not been schooled or prepared to do what is being asked of him. You could test this out, jump a gate, if the horse has not dropped his head prior to take off, ring an ambulance.

What is your definition of a hacking horse ?

Well first off, you said my opinion was ridiculous so forgive me for thinking that you were saying I was wrong.

Oh it is definitely worth looking at pedigree before buying a horse. I stupidly didnt do that on buying mine, but I managed to luck out in that respect. Either way, his movement was what won it for us so pedigree was just an added bonus. I dont personally know of Kayf Tara, its the first time I've seen his name mentioned. Plus as everyone knows, even a good sire can throw out a bad foal, even if you use a good mare. Its less likely, but genetics are a lovely quirky thing. I dont view that horse as confident enough and brave enough to manage XC, or at least I certainly wouldnt trust him. I need to trust a horse when allowing it to travel fast at a solid fence, and that horse isnt one I could trust.

The first one, maybe you are right and he is on the forehand, but he looks ok up until he gets to a fence and then suddenly his head goes down. It doesnt look right at all, and its not just me that thinks that, it looks weird. Dunno about anyone else, but I dont often have a horse drop its head like that when going over a jump before, and when it has we've both ended up on the floor. Again, its something that puts me off that particular horse, it doesnt look natural at all. I know and used to ride a mare that was always on the forehand, I mean she would pull your arms out in canter she was so strong. Jumping, it got worse, if she got sight of a jump, you were going over it. But it never felt unsafe, and it never looked unsafe like that horse. I even felt safe doing cross country with her, which for me that doesnt happen often. I knew though that she wasnt going to hesitate and not jump, and nor was she likely to get it wrong and end up dropping me on the floor.

Hacking horse to me is just a pleasure horse, its schooled enough to know the basics and some lateral work although not necessary, can probably jump a bit, but really its just a relaxing horse to ride and you can go on long hacks with it feeling safe and not thinking 'what will happen if it sees a butterfly/its own shadow right now?'. Its nothing special, nothing extraordinary, its just nice and comfortable. I love horses like that in their own way, you can sit back and not worry about a thing and just go into your own thoughts. I'm not talking about your hacking horses for shows and that, it is just your average horse. I would love to own a Highland pony like that, or a cob like that. I cant relax on mine out on hacks because I always wonder what he might do, plus he is not comfortable at all. Ridden highland ponies before with canters that you could sit to forever. That would be just perfect to me for a hacking horse. But I wouldnt pay 5k for a horse like that when its just a pleasure horse. Its just not worth the money to me.
 
I buy good quality horses, but when they are on the cheap after numpty owners have had them. Best bargain I've ever had was a £15k horse for £1.5k
 
Interesting thread - especially from this side of the world.

We have a really big gap in our middle market. There are lots of people breeding for the Olympics (or so they think!), so they are using Warmblood stallions and producing horses for experienced riders and asking prices for youngstock accordingly, not to mention anything that is started or has some experience. Not so great if you are an average Joe rider!

Then we have a lot of retired and failed racehorse both Standardbreds and Thoroughbreds which are sold cheaply for a few hundred dollars. SB's are great happy hackers, TB's can turn their hooves to just about anything, but a lot come with issues which take an experienced eye to avoid in the first place and to deal with later.

What we seem to lack is medium sized horses that are safe, sane and sound that can trek this weekend after doing an ODE last weekend and off to the local Ag show next weekend. They need to live out all year around (as most do here) and might not get ridden every day. It is quite normal for horses to run on a hill country stations (Tb/Clydie crosses mostly, originally used on the stations for stock work), with minimal handling, until they are three years old and then sold on to be started under saddle. So they are not vaccinated, hard fed, covered or anything else prior to that and they are ideally suited to the Kiwi equestrian world. However, these are a dying breed as of course, not so much mustering is done by horse these days.

However, people want those horses broken and going, five or six years old with competition experience for about NZ$5000, which still won't cover expenses never mind turning a bit of profit.
 
The first one, maybe you are right and he is on the forehand, but he looks ok up until he gets to a fence and then suddenly his head goes down. It doesnt look right at all, and its not just me that thinks that, it looks weird. Dunno about anyone else, but I dont often have a horse drop its head like that when going over a jump before, and when it has we've both ended up on the floor. Again, its something that puts me off that particular horse, it doesnt look natural at all.

Apologies if I am incorrect, but your comment suggests to me that you haven't done a lot of jumping, and not on a truly athletic horse.
A decent jumping horse will drop it's head a little as it approaches a fence. This is because he needs to do so in order to judge his takeoff. When he takes off, a horse that jumps correctly will lift his withers and drop his head, which allows him to make a curved shape over a fence and to get his back end in the air- it's called bascule. A horse with a well developed bascule can be difficult to sit on if you're not used to it - first the withers come up and hit you in the chest, then the back end flicks you forward. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to jump a horse that jumps flat ever again!
 
Hacking horse to me is just a pleasure horse, its schooled enough to know the basics and some lateral work although not necessary, can probably jump a bit, but really its just a relaxing horse to ride and you can go on long hacks with it feeling safe and not thinking 'what will happen if it sees a butterfly/its own shadow right now?'. Its nothing special, nothing extraordinary, its just nice and comfortable. I love horses like that in their own way, you can sit back and not worry about a thing and just go into your own thoughts. I'm not talking about your hacking horses for shows and that, it is just your average horse. or a cob like that.. Its just not worth the money to me.

Here is the horse that you describe above, an average cob.

100% in any traffic in front of the leg, nice mouth, 8 yr old. 15.2h, Cubbed and done 4 days this season, sound, will jump a log if she has to. Laterally supple which is a necessary to be safe on the road and extremely comfortable. Parks and coffee stops without question and you won't spill anything as she stands rock still.

What do you think she would fetch on the open market ?

Marthajune13002_zpsfc83f037.jpg
 
Apologies if I am incorrect, but your comment suggests to me that you haven't done a lot of jumping, and not on a truly athletic horse.
A decent jumping horse will drop it's head a little as it approaches a fence. This is because he needs to do so in order to judge his takeoff. When he takes off, a horse that jumps correctly will lift his withers and drop his head, which allows him to make a curved shape over a fence and to get his back end in the air- it's called bascule. A horse with a well developed bascule can be difficult to sit on if you're not used to it - first the withers come up and hit you in the chest, then the back end flicks you forward. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to jump a horse that jumps flat ever again!

No you are correct, I havent. I dont do a lot of jumping as I know basically what to do, but it terrifies me and I forget everything on approach to a fence, which isnt helpful.

What you've described for the motions sounds like what my current horse does, because he throws me forward nearly everytime. But even when I watch a professional jump him he doesnt look like what that horse did. Is that horse exaggerating what a horse is meant to do? I have ridden other horses that are more experienced than him at jumping, and they still dont look like that. I have honestly never seen a horse do what that horse did when jumping, thats why I find it weird.
 
Apologies if I am incorrect, but your comment suggests to me that you haven't done a lot of jumping, and not on a truly athletic horse.
A decent jumping horse will drop it's head a little as it approaches a fence. This is because he needs to do so in order to judge his takeoff. When he takes off, a horse that jumps correctly will lift his withers and drop his head, which allows him to make a curved shape over a fence and to get his back end in the air- it's called bascule. A horse with a well developed bascule can be difficult to sit on if you're not used to it - first the withers come up and hit you in the chest, then the back end flicks you forward. Once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to jump a horse that jumps flat ever again!

This. 100% Agree it is VERY odd the first time you feel a really good jump, but later it becomes totally thrilling :)
 
Is that horse exaggerating what a horse is meant to do? I have ridden other horses that are more experienced than him at jumping, and they still dont look like that. I have honestly never seen a horse do what that horse did when jumping, thats why I find it weird.

The horse in question is FOUR. He's a baby and he's doing his job carefully and with v little fuss. I like him. He reminds me of my Fortinero who has turned out to be a lovely horse (ets; he has always been lovely, but now he's really really lovely and fun AND safe)
 
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Here is the horse that you describe above, an average cob.

100% in any traffic in front of the leg, nice mouth, 8 yr old. 15.2h, Cubbed and done 4 days this season, sound, will jump a log if she has to. Laterally supple which is a necessary to be safe on the road and extremely comfortable. Parks and coffee stops without question and you won't spill anything as she stands rock still.

What do you think she would fetch on the open market ?

Marthajune13002_zpsfc83f037.jpg

If I was looking for just a hacking horse, like what I've described, I doubt I would pay more than £1500.

Like someone else put (cant remember who now), it depends on what the buyer is willing to pay isnt it? My price probably (well more than likely) not what you are looking for for her. But she would also suit someone who wants to do a bit of hunting, and maybe do some showing from the looks of her. Going on that basis, not being well versed in pricing, maybe £3500-£4000?

She is totally the type of horse I would love to have for hacking though. I like going on hacks in forests, but my horse is too wired to be calm the whole time. I love the big bulky cobs as well, my horse is so narrow in comparison.
 
Absolutely agree.

The feel of a quality and educated horse is a privilege and it really hit home to me when I lost mine and started looking to buy.

Agree 100% with this. I am looking right now, and not finding quality horses easy to find. Poor conformation IS easy to find. Rushed schooling and tense horses again easy to find. Choppy horses abound.

I have had some great horses in my time, and even though I have a bad back now and won't go above BE90/100 any more, I still want one to make me think "wow" every morning.

Pre bad back I could "make" them, and tended to buy ones that were fab, but had issues. Now I am looking for one not as taxing on my body, half done at least, and I don't expect to find one at less than 5K, or more. Not with good conformation, manners, and the basics of good schooling that has had a trip out to parties, and is good to hack.
 
Just some thoughts about 'hacking horses'. I owned once an absolutely super trail horse, which I think is a better description than hack. He was fine with all traffic, would go alone and in company and stand for ages if needed. All basic requirements, I'd say.

He would also cross any sort of terrain from moorland to deep mud to mountain paths. He was lateral enough that you could let yield / shoulder in around things and open all sorts of gates from him. He'd rein back on paths that were too narrow to turn on and jump logs and ditches with ease.

In addition to this, he was well balanced enough to work up and down step hills, would lead in hand if needed and let you remount from a gate or whatever. You could ask him to walk over wooden bridges, up and down steps and through running water.

That, to me, are all things I'd expect my hacking horse to be able to do, as well as being sound enough for 3/4 hour rides. He had no breeding or papers, but 4k was a bargain for a horse that could do all that.

I'll never understand why this thing of 'just a hack' exists. It you want to ride out, you want a horse that can do it all and they're rare and therefore expensive if you buy them ready made.
 
From being on yards over the years, most riders only need bog standard nice characters who are happy to pop over a small course and are quiet. Confirmation wise, they mightn't be perfect but never get pushed hard enough to cause issues. From what i can see, 98% of horses potential isn't tapped by the rider. It's lovely (and rare) at say, riding club shows, to see an 'average' plain horse jump a lovely round or do a nice test. Where you can see someone has made the absolute best out of that horse. It's much more common to see flashier horses ridden badly.
 
If I was looking for just a hacking horse, like what I've described, I doubt I would pay more than £1500.

Like someone else put (cant remember who now), it depends on what the buyer is willing to pay isnt it? My price probably (well more than likely) not what you are looking for for her. But she would also suit someone who wants to do a bit of hunting, and maybe do some showing from the looks of her. Going on that basis, not being well versed in pricing, maybe £3500-£4000?

She is totally the type of horse I would love to have for hacking though. I like going on hacks in forests, but my horse is too wired to be calm the whole time. I love the big bulky cobs as well, my horse is so narrow in comparison.

I woul pay £3000 plus for her strictly because of my brother needed that type of horse.

Saying that we have got a male version of her for £1500 direct from breeder so it's all swings and roundabouts on were in the country you are and I think what the breeder set up is.
 
I'll never understand why this thing of 'just a hack' exists. It you want to ride out, you want a horse that can do it all and they're rare and therefore expensive if you buy them ready made.

IME a really good hack is a wonderful, comparatively rare creature. It's not (IMO... I could be wrong) about just going out round the block once a week. A good hack is a proper allrounder :)
 
By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.

Not really, most people are just saying they don't want a Mercedes horse, they don't need a Mercedes horse, why would they pay for a Merc when they'll be happier with the Fiesta?

I do understand there's a lot of angles to this, here's a few points…

I do think that breeders are horse owning, bloodlines, baby raising enthusiasts the same way some people are competition or old pet pony owning enthusiasts and the idea that they should have the costs of that hobby covered is dubious. Wouldn't everyone have a stud farm full of lovely baby horses rather than going to work if it actually MADE money?

I don't think good, safe, useful leisure horses need to have pedigrees, often crossbreeds are tougher and sounder. I think if you want a performance horse you usually do have to pay more and I think the price range is pretty reasonable. There are horses for most pockets.

The over supply of coloured cobs with bad conformation must mean they barely make anyone any money, I've no idea why those breeders bother other than they enjoy the number of their horses multiplying!
 
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It's sad isn't it. Honestly though looking at some sites (especially facebook) the quality is dire. It all comes down to breeding I guess. Everyone thinks their own mare is special....
 
From being on yards over the years, most riders only need bog standard nice characters who are happy to pop over a small course and are quiet. Confirmation wise, they mightn't be perfect but never get pushed hard enough to cause issues. From what i can see, 98% of horses potential isn't tapped by the rider. It's lovely (and rare) at say, riding club shows, to see an 'average' plain horse jump a lovely round or do a nice test. Where you can see someone has made the absolute best out of that horse. It's much more common to see flashier horses ridden badly.

See thats what I am meaning and what I see a lot of up here. Yeah the horses arent the most beautiful, but they are to their owners. They dont need to be perfect, just rideable. A nice character to me is more important than looks if I were to get a horse like that. My two favourite horses for hacking were both pretty ugly mares to anyone else, one of them actually had a really long head that was so disproportionate to her body. But I loved them and felt very safe on them. They were worth pretty much nothing though to anyone else, but I would have happily bought them.
 
I was one of the posters who said on the other thread 5K is expensive. However if I was to breed one of those horse and produce it, sell it for 5k I know for a fact that I would not have much change (or any!).
I work with horses, and I am currently looking for ANY job away from them. They are far to replaceable, too cheap, few people are willing to invest any sort of money, pay for things. I work over 60 hours a week and some weeks I cannot afford to even go food shopping for myself. Its an awful depressing reality.
 
By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.

Yes, but also by the logic of some people car manufacturers should only make Mercedes and Range Rovers because they are so nice to drive and well made. Personally I'm quite happy with my old, muddy, Toyota Grand Vitara (and my old, muddy, happy hacker cob who's breeding is unknown but I've had him 6 years with very few health or soundness issues).

I'm not saying there aren't issues with over-breeding and over supply at the low end of the market, but I do hate this attitude that some posters seem to have that only pure-bred registered horses or sports horses should be bred. Not all of us actually want something like that, as a working mum my priority is a horse that can be left in the field for a fortnight and then hopped on and taken for a quiet hack (or even after 9 months once). If it also doesn't need hard feed or shoes, and tends to not injure itself, get sick, get colic etc. then that is also helpful. At the moment at least, and probably for several more years, I don't compete at anything (and I tried showing once and hated it).

Just out of interest, if you were to buy a new car, would you think it was fair to charge a purchase price that covered the cost of materials, the rent for the factory, the tools needed to build it, and the staff time to put it together?

Yes, but that is why I would never buy a new car. I buy them a few years later at auction..

I think the problem with comparing this to the horse market is that away from the top end there isn't really that distinction between a breeder and any other seller, you don't generally get a 3 year warantee or exemption from the annual vet check after all.
 
The first one, maybe you are right and he is on the forehand, but he looks ok up until he gets to a fence and then suddenly his head goes down. It doesnt look right at all, and its not just me that thinks that, it looks weird. Dunno about anyone else, but I dont often have a horse drop its head like that when going over a jump before, and when it has we've both ended up on the floor. Again, its something that puts me off that particular horse, it doesnt look natural at all.
He is WAY on the forehand and doing everything he can to sort himself out. That, in itself, I LOVE. The rider isn't setting him up at ALL (perhaps intentional to show you how genuine the horse is) and he's only four. His knees are WAY up, so he's never going to tip up over a fence. For 3k I'd have him :)
This is my own baby (not so much of a baby any more, and much more forward going than horse in video), second time in jumping lane, checking jumps out with a magnifying glass ;)
You'd better not tell me he can't jump ;) :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0NV3VPghU
 
Why? Are we wrong???
How do you do the multi-quote thing?

I was being seedy!

To multiquote - click the litle black thingie next to "reply with quote" on both the posts that you want to quote, then hit "reply with quote on one of them
Do one now so that I can be sure you've got it!!
 
I can never understand why horses are so expensive in england?

This is one of mine - jumps anything in front of him, does a lovely dressage test, hack like a angel, not great conformation, but handsome..and was 1500 euro. Which i'd consider a fair enough price.

11193334_10152747511206296_6550534073431284595_n_zpszdevofjg.jpg
 
You two need to get out more!

I was being seedy!

To multiquote - click the litle black thingie next to "reply with quote" on both the posts that you want to quote, then hit "reply with quote on one of them
Do one now so that I can be sure you've got it!!

You two need to get out more!

Ta daaa. Oh. Wait. That's not quite right.

What if I just want to quote your quote and the quote you quoted without going back 1,2 or however many pages??
 
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