Why are there no good livery yards?

[Frumpoon]

I am afraid that you must be in the wrong yards. Certainly here, I looked after my liveries as I do my own competition horses and youngstock and as these compete up to international level that is a pretty decent level of care. My first 3 liveries were with me for over 20 years each and are still great friends. However one or two later ones were not so great and when my 'oldies' gave up horses I gave up liveries.

My staff, who are all paid well and have a 8.30 to 5 pm day 5 day week(why should they work every hour under the sun and have no life?) are covered by myself - I feed at 7.30am and do late hay at 9.30 to 10pm, 7 days/week/52 weeks/year. I would say that is pretty dedicated and frankly for the odd £10/week profit you might make putting up with the attitudes that are prevalent on here if is not worth it.

I have a lovely yard, brick boxes, fantastic hacking, arena, loose school,
walker, wash box, show jumps etc etc. as well as over 50 acres and apart from my staff horses I own every single animal on site and that is how it will stay.

So you don't have liveries then?

 

[Kat]

I have been on the same yard for over 9 years. When you find one with a sane yard owner, daily turn out AND a floodlit school you don't leave.

 

[sport horse]

So you don't have liveries then?

Not any more - not a chance in hell!! Regularly get people asking but no no no! Happy to do livery for horse but do not want the owners 24/7 moaning. Just re read this thread as if you were thinking of starting a livery business and I guarantee you would find a better way to earn some pocket money or to keep your horses.

 

[sherry90]

The best yards I’ve ever been in have been the strictest tbh. One was a small private yard and one was the biggest yard I’ve ever been on, 20ish horses and a mix of full and DIY. Both quite different yards in terms of the way they ran things, and I made different compromises to be at both depending on what I prioritised as mine and my horse’s needs at the time. Both owners were knowledgeable, but in different ways - one BS family, one traditional hunting farmers. I didn’t necessarily agree with either of them on everything, with regards to horse care. But what both those yards had in common was that the owners ruled with a rod of iron! Rules were rules, break them at your own risk. Everyone knew the rules, and everyone was treated exactly the same regardless of who they were or whether they were full or DIY. Nobody stepped out of line, nobody dared ?. If you don’t like the rules, leave. People who didn’t look after their horses properly were spoken to, then if no immediate improvements, asked to leave. And they left. Was I scared of those yard owners? Yea definitely ? But there was no bitchiness, and no nightmare people. And most of all, no stress! Let’s not forget here, nightmare liveries actually affect decent liveries on the yard too. It’s quite upsetting seeing horses treated badly and not looked after, or being bitched about by the yard clique. I’ve experienced both of those situations, the latter more than once as I tend to keep myself to myself and am not one for standing around chatting all day when I could be riding.

The worst yards have been the most laid back, where there are no rules. Great for liveries who are responsible, respectful and capable of looking after their horses independently. But unfortunately then you get those who will take advantage and treat the place like they own it, in the absence of any input from the yard owner. Also yard owners trying too hard to be friends with their liveries can cause problems, I’ve seen favouritism and little cliques of YO friends forming, to the detriment of relationships with other liveries on the yard. I know lots of people on here have said about they are on lovely yards like this and I’m truly envious as this would be my ideal, so I can do my own thing and look after my horse without being bothered by anybody. But certainly in my old area the yards I was on like that were not fun places to be.

So for me strict yards win, if I don’t like the rules I’ll go. Yard owners, just remember to tell me what the exact rules are, and what you are or are not prepared to accommodate, before I commit to coming please!

This - coming from a relaxed DIY yard whereby the YO had no set rules as such but certain friends had better treatment to the rest, to a yard where everyone is treated the same with the same rules, is so much easier.

 

[Frumpoon]

Not any more - not a chance in hell!! Regularly get people asking but no no no! Happy to do livery for horse but do not want the owners 24/7 moaning. Just re read this thread as if you were thinking of starting a livery business and I guarantee you would find a better way to earn some pocket money or to keep your horses.

Ok I'm just confused because you talk about being a super hard working Livery owner...but you don't actually have liveries soooooooo ??‍

 

[sport horse]

Ok I'm just confused because you talk about being a super hard working Livery owner...but you don't actually have liveries soooooooo ??‍

I think if you re read my post it says 'I looked after' ie past tense!

 

[Frumpoon]

Not any more - not a chance in hell!! Regularly get people asking but no no no! Happy to do livery for horse but do not want the owners 24/7 moaning. Just re read this thread as if you were thinking of starting a livery business and I guarantee you would find a better way to earn some pocket money or to keep your horses.

I've re read the thread and all I can see are people who want a service, are happy to pay for it, are concerned with animal welfare and have simple requirements such as daily turnout and adequate roughage for their horses

If that is so offensive to you then you are definitely best off out of it

 

[Caol Ila]

Aye, what Frumpoon said! I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that YOs behave in a vaguely professional manner. Many do... of course (I didn't give those examples). But so many don't. Including the female, New York City incarnation of Joe Exotic, who did a lot of horse rescues from neglectful situations, to be fair, but she'd gotten so high and utterly self-involved on the rescue thing that she would do whatever the hell she liked with livery horses because in her mind, she was 'rescuing' them too. And if their owners objected, she would just tell them she was 'saving' the horse and you were an uneducated/neglectful owner. Yeah, that was nice.

She showed me scars on her arm once and said that's where one of her tigers had nipped her.

 

[Arzada]

Yards are over socked to pay the bills, because horse owners frequently do not want to pay the amount per horse that would sustain the yard.

I pay the amount asked. It's not my role to check with the YO that they have costed to sustain their yard etc. How many people go into Sainsburys and say excuse me I think you should be charging more for your bananas but no worries I'll simply pay you more than you are asking?

 

[Abi90]

I pay the amount asked. It's not my role to check with the YO that they have costed to sustain their yard etc. How many people go into Sainsburys and say excuse me I think you should be charging more for your bananas but no worries I'll simply pay you more than you are asking?

Quite. I moved from one yard to another to pay more for less because my horse was looked after better! But I’m not going to quibble if people offer to charge me less

 

[YorksG]

I pay the amount asked. It's not my role to check with the YO that they have costed to sustain their yard etc. How many people go into Sainsburys and say excuse me I think you should be charging more for your bananas but no worries I'll simply pay you more than you are asking?

An awful lot of horse owners will not pay a realistic amount for livery, some will, but if the majority want cheap the cheap ones will take the business. We often see on this forum people complaining about vets bills, farriery charges etc and indeed livery charges and a sense coming across of others should subsidise a very expensive hobby.

 

[sherry90]

An awful lot of horse owners will not pay a realistic amount for livery, some will, but if the majority want cheap the cheap ones will take the business. We often see on this forum people complaining about vets bills, farriery charges etc and indeed livery charges and a sense coming across of others should subsidise a very expensive hobby.

But if they don’t have a choice - ie. the price of average livery was increased across the board then they’d be priced out of ownership (which wouldn’t be a bad thing in some situations)

There are always going to be budget versions of any service. There just needs to be a minimum standard for welfare reasons - of which some yards (even expensive ones) wouldn’t meet the minimum requirements, I’m sure.

 

[skint1]

Finding a good DIY livery yard is certainly hard, I feel lucky with mine most of the time but perhaps a lot of people wouldn't find it ideal as it is quite an informal one. It's not necessarily pretty but it is functionally safe and relatively tidy. The turnout is generous and not overstocked, the school is not great but passable most of the time, the hacking is very good if you don't mind open countryside over road work. They supply straw and haylage in the winter months. The fields and stables are maintained to a reasonable level, the drainage on the yard could do with some attention I guess.

We have had liveries who complain a lot and expect the earth for what we are paying. There are places with nicer schools and just generally more posh but most people who have left for pastures greener have wanted to come back at some point, not all, but most.

When I moved there 12 years ago there were around 30 horses but that's dwindled down now to about 17 as the farmer's son wants to build a wedding and conference venue. I was extremely fortunate to be spared, I don't know where I would go if they got rid of livery completely. Most of the yards near my town are ok, but not as good as my yard, I might have to go further out to get something on a similar par, and pay more for it, which is no problem. It's not about the money, I would always be happy to pay for my horses to be happy and safe in their home.

 

[YorksG]

But if they don’t have a choice - ie. the price of average livery was increased across the board then they’d be priced out of ownership (which wouldn’t be a bad thing in some situations)

There are always going to be budget versions of any service. There just needs to be a minimum standard for welfare reasons - of which some yards (even expensive ones) wouldn’t meet the minimum requirements, I’m sure.

Customers also have the right to move, I would not stay on a yard where I felt that my horses welfare was compromised. This is a two way street, surely?

 

[skint1]

I pay the amount asked. It's not my role to check with the YO that they have costed to sustain their yard etc. How many people go into Sainsburys and say excuse me I think you should be charging more for your bananas but no worries I'll simply pay you more than you are asking?

Exactly this. I don't know what their costs are, and I certainly wouldn't expect someone to subsidise my hobby or go to a yard and then spend the whole time complaining about the facilities or the costs either, you pays your money and makes your choice

 

[Goldenstar]

I've re read the thread and all I can see are people who want a service, are happy to pay for it, are concerned with animal welfare and have simple requirements such as daily turnout and adequate roughage for their horses

If that is so offensive to you then you are definitely best off out of it

But are they willingto pay ?I can’t see how I could offer the package my horses get here for less than £ 25 a day .

 

[Cortez]

I've re read the thread and all I can see are people who want a service, are happy to pay for it, are concerned with animal welfare and have simple requirements such as daily turnout and adequate roughage for their horses

If that is so offensive to you then you are definitely best off out of it

Ah, if only that was the case. You may have noticed that there are a fair few people, myself included, saying that they would never again countenance having liveries. Presuming that we did indeed provide good animal welfare, daily turnout and adequate hay, why do you think that might be?

 

[ihatework]

I can see both sides.

It frustrates me that liveries can’t appreciate how much good horse care costs.

But it frustrates me more that livery owners whinge and moan about bad liveries and how they can’t make a living. The answer is pretty simple. Cost your business out appropriately, charge for what you are offering, provide what you are charging for, and manage your liveries professionally. Get a dodgy livery - then hand them their notice!

If you still can’t make a living because people won’t pay then perhaps you don’t have a viable business and should look elsewhere.

 

[be positive]

But are they willingto pay ?I can’t see how I could offer the package my horses get here for less than £ 25 a day .

That is about the going rate for full livery, no riding, with all needs met, decent facilities in my area, a few are higher but it is the lower end of the market where prices plummet, the last schooling livery I took on I priced at £40 per day as it was short term, that was well above normal and is about right for the time put in if done well, not many people would pay that for full livery including a decent amount of exercise daily but there are also not many that want that level of service now.

 

[Cortez]

I can see both sides.

It frustrates me that liveries can’t appreciate how much good horse care costs.

But it frustrates me more that livery owners whinge and moan about bad liveries and how they can’t make a living. The answer is pretty simple. Cost your business out appropriately, charge for what you are offering, provide what you are charging for, and manage your liveries professionally. Get a dodgy livery - then hand them their notice!

If you still can’t make a living because people won’t pay then perhaps you don’t have a viable business and should look elsewhere.

It's not just about the money. Livery prices in the UK seem crazily low to me. I ran a livery business in the US, nearly 30 years ago I was charging $1,200 a month/$277 a week for full non-training livery. I had a full barn, paid staff, and still didn't made enough to make it worth the hassle. So I did as you suggest and turfed them out. I won't go into the detail of why I disliked having 30 insecure, inept, neurotic, destructive, vindictive, downright nutso privacy invaders on my property at all hours, but I was providing a horse boarding facility, not a holding area for a psych unit.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I can see both sides.

It frustrates me that liveries can’t appreciate how much good horse care costs.

But it frustrates me more that livery owners whinge and moan about bad liveries and how they can’t make a living. The answer is pretty simple. Cost your business out appropriately, charge for what you are offering, provide what you are charging for, and manage your liveries professionally. Get a dodgy livery - then hand them their notice!

If you still can’t make a living because people won’t pay then perhaps you don’t have a viable business and should look elsewhere.

I rather thought the point was that several people have said that they have found other means of making a living/funding their own hobby and have no intention of ever having liveries again, because of bad experience(s).

There are very few people who actually *need* to take liveries for any reason.

 

[bluehorse]

Perhaps that is in response to the tone of the thread title?
That gives the impression that all yards are impossible to keep horses on, so, of course, YOs will answer with their own experiences of impossible liveries.

Perhaps, but the actual post didn’t seem to have a particularly bad tone to me. Although maybe the title could have been phrased differently. If you read the post though it seemed to be more of a general musing than a finger pointy post. OP did also point out at that there are many wonderful yards out there, which to me doesn’t give the impression that they think all yards are awful. This thread has certainly rattled a few yard owners though, obviously touched a nerve!!

There’s nothing wrong with using personal experiences to illustrate a point, whoever you are. We can all relay good or bad personal experiences - we all have them after all. It is the sweeping generalisations which are creeping in, like liveries are not prepared to pay money, or the only good yards are the most expensive yards, or all DIY yards are bad, which don’t exactly relay a great tone, and how does anybody actually know those things for a fact? You can rightly argue that the thread title is a sweeping generalisation, but I don’t think the content of original post is. It seemed like a genuine question to me.

 

[ihatework]

It's not just about the money. Livery prices in the UK seem crazily low to me. I ran a livery business in the US, nearly 30 years ago I was charging $1,200 a month/$277 a week for full non-training livery. I had a full barn, paid staff, and still didn't made enough to make it worth the hassle. So I did as you suggest and turfed them out. I won't go into the detail of why I disliked having 30 insecure, inept, neurotic, destructive, vindictive, downright nutso privacy invaders on my property at all hours, but I was providing a horse boarding facility, not a holding area for a psych unit.

Well you obviously did what more people should do! If you aren’t cut out for dealing with people then it’s perfectly ok to get out of the game!

Ive seen plenty of examples of YOs who are great people managers, and are happy to manage liveries personalities/foibles. That doesn’t make them all psych cases ?

 

[JFTDWS]

y I disliked having 30 insecure, inept, neurotic, destructive, vindictive, downright nutso privacy invaders on my property at all hours, but I was providing a horse boarding facility, not a holding area for a psych unit.

A better question for a thread might be "why are all horse people so bloody bonkers?!"

 

[bluehorse]

An awful lot of horse owners will not pay a realistic amount for livery, some will, but if the majority want cheap the cheap ones will take the business. We often see on this forum people complaining about vets bills, farriery charges etc and indeed livery charges and a sense coming across of others should subsidise a very expensive hobby.

But how do you actually know this for a fact? Unless you know every single horse owner in the UK, you’re making assumptions!

Edited to add, having had a further thought:

So is the problem then just that more expensive yards can’t compete with cheaper ones? Given that we seem to have established that cheap does not necessarily mean bad (either full or diy), providing welfare standards are in place and the cheap yard meets the owners needs? If it’s got everything required why wouldn’t the cheaper yards win the business? That‘s just normal competition isn’t it?

 

[sport horse]

The title of this thread is 'Why are there no good livery yards'. There are several Yard Owners who have come on here and quite honestly, explained why they no longer offer livery services.

Has anyone taken any notice? No. The YO's have been criticised and told that heir attitude suggests they are best out of the business. Actually we are out of the business!

Maybe, just maybe, that is why some of you cannot find 'good livery yards'?

 

[Cortez]

The title of this thread is 'Why are there no good livery yards'. There are several Yard Owners who have come on here and quite honestly, explained why they no longer offer livery services.

Has anyone taken any notice? No. The YO's have been criticised and told that heir attitude suggests they are best out of the business. Actually we are out of the business!

Maybe, just maybe, that is why some of you cannot find 'good livery yards'?

Precisely. I ran a very good livery yard, when I stopped taking liveries I had people begging on their knees (I told you they were psychos) to keep going, but there isn't enough money in the world to put up with all that crap.

 

[Smogul]

Because you sometimes need to "have to" go if your juggling work, sick or injured family, your elderly confused mum, house work it's too easy to drop the one you think has been sorted when you run out of energy or time.

Totally get that but if I only ever went because I "had to", I would sell the horse! Life is too short just to be doing chores.

 

[Shilasdair]

Look at all the YOs outing themselves as nutters.

 

[Smogul]

He's retired and prior to lockdown, I was only going up a few times a week due to my amazing sharer/her friend and it taking an hour to get there from work. I'm glad to say that this has changed and I'm going up daily. I had also been very wary of going into the field after a rather gruesome accident.

Ah, makes sense!