Why are there no good livery yards?

[Shilasdair]

YOs - just curious - do you work out your costs (fixed and variable) for each stable - how do you calculate your prices?

 

[ycbm]

Just to cheer some of you up, I had yet another 'drive by' popping into my yard this evening to enquire about DIY livery.
This time I said, 'of course I have space, cost is £15 per day'. Enquirer looked at me as if I was a nutter and said, surely you mean a week? Nope I replied, I've decided to come in line with inflation, I was charging £25 per week in 1995, so have put an increase in as that was 25 years ago. Still cheaper than putting a dog in day care
She told me I wouldnt get anyone, so I smiled cheerfully and said, 'how lovely'

I hope you are all proud of me

How lovely! ?

 

[Caol Ila]

I think the point that the YOs on this thread are missing is - many liveries are actually willing to pay a reasonable rate for facilities and services, which would enable the business to make a profit. We don't expect people to break even or run at a loss.

However, very often we move to a yard on the strength of the facilities and services offered when we view - only to find out that they were mis-sold/oversold.

Yeah, I don't think many people on this thread were kvetching about the cost of livery. My current one costs more than my last one, but the facilities are 100 times better and the people running it 100 times saner. The latter alone is worth its weight in gold. People were kvetching about the weird sh*t that happens at yards. It doesn't cost anything to not be crazy.

And yeah, I know horse owners are also batsh*t but as just another pleb horse owner, fellow liveries being batsh*t has less bearing on my welfare (usually) than crazy yard owners. I appreciate that if you're the YO, you have to deal with these people. And maybe you have to be crazy to want to deal with crazy people. Maybe it's like Yossarian in Catch-22, and anyone who's sane would not run a yard.

"I'm nuts. Cuckoo. Don't you understand? I'm off my rocker... They've got a licensed physician up at the hospital who examined me, and that was his verdict. I'm really insane.

"So?"

"So?" Yossarian was troubled by Doc Daneeka's inability to comprehend. "Don't you see what that means? Now you can take me off combat duty and send me home. They're not going to send a crazy man out to be killed, are they?"

"Who else will go?"

 

[Bernster]

Brilliant !

 

[VioletStripe]

My apologies for the title - it was a sweeping statement, and as I have said in my OP, there are wonderful yards and wonderful YOs, and I understand a lot of clients can be very difficult.

The suggestion earlier in the thread regarding making a post about why horse people are all so nutty pretty much hit the nail on the head! I certainly didn't mean to cause offence to any of the current or previous YOs/YMs - from a lot of their posts that I have seen on this forum over the years, I would count myself very lucky to have some of them running a yard that I was on.

I believe Cortez has hit the nail on the head, regarding the fact it would probably outprice a lot of average horse owners, and is very much to do with this tiny, expensive, over-populated island we live on. Following Shilasdair's question re how pricing is worked out, I would be very very interested to hear this myself - not in a judgemental way, purely because I am so interested in how people do run this business!

Where I am now I pay a lot more compared to where I was before, which I am very happy to pay as the care, facilities, and horse welfare is fantastic. Where I was before was definitely cutting corners, and probably as they weren't charging enough and wanted the cash flow. That being said, in other ways I pay less -
- There are fewer vet bills and it's easier to have your call out fee split as they purposefully group all the horses together for jabs in rotas so you pay as little as possible for the visit
- My stuff never goes missing (this was a huge problem at the old place - headcollars, lead ropes, numnahs, brushes, hay nets feed bowls... you name it)
- I don't constantly have to buy extras for my horse to ensure he's getting fed properly
- I don't need to have a farrier come out every couple of weeks to refit shoes due to the huge herd turnout
- Don't need to buy endless rugs as they aren't getting ripped as much from the numerous bullies in the field, and they are hung up instead of ripped off and thrown somewhere on the yard

 

[VioletStripe]

This is so true.

Time was given in Parliament a few years ago and the Livery Act bill was partially written, it did get quite a good way through the system before falling off the edge as other business took over.

If livery yards were licensed along the lines of riding school legislation and using the Animal Welfare (activities involving animals) 2018 Act, the average cost would be circa £1000.00 for a one year licence. An application fee, followed by an inspection fee with the inspection being done either by a listed vet or an experienced licensing officer, followed by the licence fee itself. The premises would then be randomly visited during the life of the licence which would be between 1 and 3 years. If standards were high enough to achieve a longer licence the costs would go up to near £1800.

I am expecting livery yard licensing to be revisited when DEFRA have to review the 2018 Act, dog walking businesses will also be looked at.

I would welcome livery yard licensing, it would help yard owners who want to operate well and it would also close down the bin end yards with bedsteads for fencing.

That is really interesting, I wasn't aware it had gotten that far... I wonder what the future will hold.

 

[VioletStripe]

Yeah, I don't think many people on this thread were kvetching about the cost of livery. My current one costs more than my last one, but the facilities are 100 times better and the people running it 100 times saner. The latter alone is worth its weight in gold. People were kvetching about the weird sh*t that happens at yards. It doesn't cost anything to not be crazy.

And yeah, I know horse owners are also batsh*t but as just another pleb horse owner, fellow liveries being batsh*t has less bearing on my welfare (usually) than crazy yard owners. I appreciate that if you're the YO, you have to deal with these people. And maybe you have to be crazy to want to deal with crazy people. Maybe it's like Yossarian in Catch-22, and anyone who's sane would not run a yard.

"I'm nuts. Cuckoo. Don't you understand? I'm off my rocker... They've got a licensed physician up at the hospital who examined me, and that was his verdict. I'm really insane.

"So?"

"So?" Yossarian was troubled by Doc Daneeka's inability to comprehend. "Don't you see what that means? Now you can take me off combat duty and send me home. They're not going to send a crazy man out to be killed, are they?"

"Who else will go?"

Love it

 

[teapot]

YOs - just curious - do you work out your costs (fixed and variable) for each stable - how do you calculate your prices?

I think for my old job at least, it was done by total number of horses on site. So grazing/feed/hay/maintence/electricity/water/admin costs/insurance etc. Livery income never ever touched the monthly outgoings!

Funnily enough the the BHS has brought this all into the new Stage 4 exams, not the old BHSI/Stable Manager. The new SM requires proper business planning, finally!

 

[Northern]

I have not read all the posts but I think I am very lucky. My yard is probably run a bit unconventionally but it seems to work for both the owner and the liveries. It is owned by a knowledgeable horse owner with a farming background. She provides the fields, the stabling, individual storage space and an outdoor school. The owners pay for individual fields, many with a field shelter, some with a stable. The fencing is mostly run down old stock fencing and we all provide our own electric fencing, maintain our fields, organise and pay for muck heap removal, and hay and straw deliveries. It never advertises and I got in through a friend who was already there. We also have direct access to miles of off road riding and the owner is a consummate diplomat who mostly leaves us to our own devices. Many of the unused farm buildings are very run down but the essentials get done on the ones that need to be safe and water tight. Not a pretty yard but a fabulous one. It can be done but it needs a very cost cutting approach and a lot of common sense and good will from all parties. Happy horses do not need solariums, drying rooms and horse walkers. Everybody here rides and many compete. I guess the set-up would probably put off the average novice owner though. You would not fare well if you did not know a fair bit about horse and land management.

This is the closest example of how my yard (in Aus) is run. We have our own paddocks and are allowed to improve them as we wish (with management approval), including building stables and sheds. It is completely up to the liveries to maintain these buildings, paddocks and any internal fencing, management are responsible for the boundary fencing between paddocks. Unfortunately many people don't have a clue about how to rest and rotate paddocks and basic land management, so more often than not the paddocks look quite sad.

This place offers everything from community paddocks (v. basic 24/7 turnout with a water trough) to full stabled livery. Sure the arena surfaces are terrible (although they are being worked on) and the fencing isn't the absolute best (works most of the time), but I wouldn't dream of complaining because IMO we have the best of big paddocks, close to the city and comparably incredibly affordable. The place was bought up by a development company about 5 years ago, and they are noticeably improving several aspects of the property, including regular arena maintenance and replacing old water piping and fencing (think 100s of kms). Currently we are paying extra for town water - which I absolutely think is worth and and hope they will continue to provide.

I know there are plenty of people who complain though, but I just always wonder why they don't just leave and find something better than try and bully management into changing things to suit them. I regularly feel sorry for the manager, she does a great job dealing with plenty of sometimes quite aggressive people, and has in the realm of 100 liveries to manage. Wouldn't do it myself, so will continue to admire and when I can get my own place, breathe a sigh of relief that I would never need to deal with that aspect of the horse world (apart from maybe a few very close friends).

 

[sport horse]

No, you have come on here to remind everyone that you are so fabulously well off that you don't need to sully yourself with the buying or selling of livery services

Which is lovely, I'm really pleased for you

But it doesn't add anything to the debate of why such a completely unregulated industry exists with serious implications for animal welfare

My wish list consists of daily turnout, ad lib roughage, somewhere to ride, no crazies...that's it!

I'm lucky with where I am now and Ive been at some lovely places in the past but I've also been at some terrible places where I've been beaten, my horses beaten, little to no turnout, severely rationed food, filthy beds, viruses running unchecked, rotten haylage, barefaced lies...honestly the list goes on

It would never be allowed to happen in children's nurseries or similar place of care of the vulnerable

No I did not come on here to 'remind everyone that I am fabulously well off that I don't need to sully myself with the buying and selling of livery services' because I am not. I wished to point out that the buying and selling of those services yields so little profit, that by working a little extra at other business interests I can easily make it up without all the aggravation that comes with liveries.

I used to keep my horses at livery. We used to go up to the stables, ride, groom and go home. We did not take all our friends and family, we did not take a picnic and spend the day in the yard, the yard opened at 8am and closed at 6pm. If you needed access outside those hours you had to prearrange it. I have even read on here of people being upset that they woke in the night and wanted to go and 'chat' to their horse and the YO was most unaccaommodating. Really?

 

[lottiemoo]

In my experience, good yards tend to be the ones that are not the sole source of income for that person/family. E.g - it's run as a 'hobby' and so doesn't have the same financial constraints.
I now work with horses in Belgium and agree the stable management is of a lower standard, but the horses are happy, healthy and trained well. It still bothers me that the horses are only mucked out every other day on straw, but it is a full muck out and the horses are still clean, and their feet do not suffer.

 

[Caol Ila]

No I did not come on here to 'remind everyone that I am fabulously well off that I don't need to sully myself with the buying and selling of livery services' because I am not. I wished to point out that the buying and selling of those services yields so little profit, that by working a little extra at other business interests I can easily make it up without all the aggravation that comes with liveries.

I used to keep my horses at livery. We used to go up to the stables, ride, groom and go home. We did not take all our friends and family, we did not take a picnic and spend the day in the yard, the yard opened at 8am and closed at 6pm. If you needed access outside those hours you had to prearrange it. I have even read on here of people being upset that they woke in the night and wanted to go and 'chat' to their horse and the YO was most unaccaommodating. Really?

Don't know of anyone who complained about being unable to 'chat' to their horse in the middle of the night (outwith emergencies) but 6pm seems a bit early. I guess no one who had a horse there worked 9-5.

 

[JFTDWS]

Don't know of anyone who complained about being unable to 'chat' to their horse in the middle of the night (outwith emergencies) but 6pm seems a bit early. I guess no one who had a horse there worked 9-5.

Yep, for horses on DIY, I expect to be able to access them at all times of day and night if necessary - not for a chat, but for emergency checks as required. Not to mention working odd hours.

That's not to say that yards with opening times shouldn't exist, just that they should be upfront about their rules so anyone moving on can choose to avoid that yard if it doesn't suit their requirements. Personally I pick yards where I can access my horses without disturbing anyone if I need to.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Stated opening hours sounds good to me, as long as owners can see to their horses outside of these hours by prior arrangement for reasonable reasons - sick horse, early start for a show etc. As a responsible yard owner, I’d want to know who was switching the lights on/clattering round the yard at 4am.

 

[sport horse]

Don't know of anyone who complained about being unable to 'chat' to their horse in the middle of the night (outwith emergencies) but 6pm seems a bit early. I guess no one who had a horse there worked 9-5.

Actually I worked in the city full time 8.45 - 5.30pm, 5 days/week with a 1/12 hour train journey each way. In those days no one had arenas let alone flood lit arenas or indoor school but amazingly the horses went out in field every day and at weekends we hunted, show jumped up to Grade A level etc and the horses were never sick or sorry! Weird isn't it?!

 

[JFTDWS]

Actually I worked in the city full time 8.45 - 5.30pm, 5 days/week with a 1/12 hour train journey each way. In those days no one had arenas let alone flood lit arenas or indoor school but amazingly the horses went out in field every day and at weekends we hunted, show jumped up to Grade A level etc and the horses were never sick or sorry! Weird isn't it?!

So presumably your horse wasn't on DIY, as I doubt it was left without care from weekend to weekend. I'd hope it was exercised for you mid-week too. Hardly comparable to owners wanting access to their horses on DIY...

 

[sport horse]

So presumably your horse wasn't on DIY, as I doubt it was left without care from weekend to weekend. I'd hope it was exercised for you mid-week too. Hardly comparable to owners wanting access to their horses on DIY...

My horse was mucked out, turned out and brought in. No riding, as was the norm in those days. Horses all went out together in large herds and there were rarely any accidents and the hrses were much sounder. I was in a huge yard with over 40 liveries and 60 horses in a riding school. Care was basic but the horses thrived and everyone hunted/competed at weekends. DIY did not exist in in the early 1960's and frankly it is not possible and/or sensible to do DIY if you work full time in a smart office environment with a long commute. Something must give be it job, family horse etc.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I was on a yard once that decided to close on Sunday afternoon's, even if you wanted to go to a show you were allowed a pass but had to be back by 6pm else padlock was on. You also had to pay for horse to be fed and hayed on the Sunday pm but had to catch in by 12. They were quite surprised when only a couple of liveries remained as it was a competitive yard.

 

[JFTDWS]

I quite simply don't believe that horses were hunting hard or jumping grade A on the weekends with no work midweek and no soundness issues. There's a reason "Monday morning sickness" was a thing back in the day...

And I think it's up to the individual to decide if they can balance a horse around a full time job / commute if they can find a yard without restrictive opening hours.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Perhaps owners should take more responsibility for the animals' welfare and remove them from anywhere that doesn't provide what the horse needs. I do wonder why you have left yards which were lovely places, although, of course, I have of idea of your personal circumstances. We spent 8 yrs at one yard, had a break, then spent 6 weeks at a new yard, which was not safely fenced it turned out and moved to a yard where we spent 10 years until buying our own place, via a friend's farm for 3 months.

And where are you supposed to magically find such a space, especially if you have more than one horse. If you live in a congested area it can take an hour to drive 5 miles and if you finish work at 6pm and the yard shuts at 7pm but the place your at closes at 9 then what do you suggest ? Leave the job that pays for the horses, move house if you can afford a 500k house and you in a 250 k band. It is quite offensive to say that we should take more responsibility and move when the very fact that we are concerned about our horses welfare is the very reason we are in this dilema.

 

[Chianti]

It would actually be very interesting to do a study on YM and YOs in relation to what percentage of their time is spent actually looking after horses v dealing with people. People who are fantastic horse people don’t necessarily make a success of running a yard because they aren’t necessarily good people people.

I would also be interested to see the results of a survey of people’s main livery yard gripes and, of those, which ones actually require spending money to put right. I used to be a secretary in an NHS trust and my boss dealt with all the patient complaints arising from a particular hospital. Only a very few of those formal complaints concerned the clinical aspects of care: diagnosis, timely treatment, correct treatment etc. The overwhelming majority were about communication, lack of kindness, not treating people with dignity and respect, not involving patients in their care plans, that sort of thing. Not one of those costs a Trust money to implement, but by god did they cost us a lot of resource to put right when they weren’t there. Same with livery yards - basic communication, care, kindness and good management are free but if they are not there even the most incredible facilities would struggle to mitigate their absence.

I agree absolutely. To me the most frustrating thing is poor communication- not being told what is or has happened leads quite quickly to a lose of trust. I always think that on livery there's always that 'who's horse is it anyway?' factor. Just because someone works on a yard that doesn't mean they know more about how to care for my horse than I do. I know I can't possibly know everything about horse care but after doing it for 30 plus years I have picked up the odd snippet of information. If I ask for something to be done a certain way it's because that's how I prefer it to be done. I recall a livery being on holiday and the yard having to call out the vet for her horse. Vet visited and gave advice- when I asked the owner what the outcome was she quite blatantly told me that she wasn't going to do as the vet asked because she knew her own vet wouldn't have given the same advice!

 

[sport horse]

I quite simply don't believe that horses were hunting hard or jumping grade A on the weekends with no work midweek and no soundness issues. There's a reason "Monday morning sickness" was a thing back in the day...

And I think it's up to the individual to decide if they can balance a horse around a full time job / commute if they can find a yard without restrictive opening hours.

It is a FACT. Are you accusing me of lying? Sorry I was there and I do know. We never had one single case of Monday morning sickness or azoturia. Maybe the diet was better with no compounded foods covered in molasses? Maybe the daily turnout in a good group of horses in a large field rather than single turnout in a miserable electric fence 'patch'? I have no idea but it is the truth and I think quite a few of my generation will bear that out.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Then again new rather brash lady, very loud very bragging about her own business where she has just moved from, and how amazing it was but she was asked to leave as the were refurbing the yard and she will be going back as soon as it's been done, as long as the prices have not gone up ! She only moved to yard yesterday, she is already pushing for someone to move their horse so she can have her friend move in next to her (she is in the far block) spoke down her nose to me as I was mucking my 4 out and told me she pitied us d I y'ers (I am on 5 day full livery) and has walked off leaving her horse to be done by yard tomorrow because it's only a couple of extra poos to take out and she's covered them up. (She is on 5 day too and is supposed to have done her horse today.) Horse in by 1pm with lord knows how much hay to drag round stable and poo on. Yard will have to deal with this mess tomorrow. So one egit can cause all of us to get tarnished with the same brush. She won't last long here as yard will not accept the waste, the mess in the stable and more importantly a stabled horse being left from 1pm until 7am, especially when the yard offers afternoon stable duties but these are chargeable. So pony could have been caught in rug changed and fed, or even just fed and hayed, but to save a couple of quid she,in my opinion, has behaved appalling to the yard and her horse.

 

[YorksG]

It is not offensive to say that people should take responsibly for the animals they own. If yards are so unsuitable people may need to reconsider if horse owning is viable for them

 

[helffrich]

Not read the whole thread, but here is what it's like in the South West of FRANCE where I live:
- Like anywhere else, some are better than others but I know many of them and except for a couple with low standards, the vast majority of yards in my area are pretty decent.
- No DIY in France
- 2 different types: Full livery open only to horse owners and full livery combined with riding school or poney club. (I experienced both).
- Good turnout, good facilities but this is the countryside, so plenty of space
- Lots happening around the yard besides riding: festive meals, "aperos", good wine with great food etc... (this is southern France after all !!!)
- Much cheaper boarding down here than up north, especially around Paris where it costs double what it does down here.
- My take is that the french equestrian community has improved significantly over the years, especially regarding horse welfare, horse management and generally about improving service.

 

[Cortez]

Sadly, I rather agree with you YorksG. The explosion of horse ownership in the last 20 - 25 years, and the rise of scrappy, non-professional places to keep horses which has enabled it, is perhaps not altogether a good thing, for the horses, nor the general standard of horsemanship.

 

[Gingerwitch]

It is not offensive to say that people should take responsibly for the animals they own. If yards are so unsuitable people may need to reconsider if horse owning is viable for them

I was at my first livery yard as an adult for 12 years, moved out of the area and was on two yards in 10 years, due to relocations, I then came back to the mids. Lord knows what happend in those 10 years but a lot of the yards are now housing estates, no winter turn out is now the new norm. I am finally back to a horse friendly and client friendly yard but it's hell of a commute. I just wish Chrystal balls were available before you move yards, as so often what you think your getting is nothing like what you really get. I have seen the stable girls throw an old horses feed away because she was taking too long to eat it and I did kick up a fuss at the time and told the owner and yard owner. We both left just after this. Good yards have waiting lists, if you can move 3 to 4horses at once that speaks volumes, unless it's a newly built block. This lot will be my last ones I have as it saddens me that good livery in this area is so scarce, if I move it may be a different matter.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Actually we are out of the business!

I can’t r

It is a FACT. Are you accusing me of lying? Sorry I was there and I do know. We never had one single case of Monday morning sickness or azoturia. Maybe the diet was better with no compounded foods covered in molasses? Maybe the daily turnout in a good group of horses in a large field rather than single turnout in a miserable electric fence 'patch'? I have no idea but it is the truth and I think quite a few of my generation will bear that out.

You seem a obsessed to be honest. Nobody made you have liveries and you no longer have liveries and to have liveries is completely optional. I really don’t understand what your beef is. You’re becoming pretty insulting to the majority of people who work hard and look after their horses well on DIY of other types of livery if they do need or wish to. If they’ve only a small “patch” then that’s probably down to what is on offer locally. Grazing or lack of is of great concern to many posters on this forum and something that causes a lot of angst.

 

[Red-1]

That is about the going rate for full livery, no riding, with all needs met, decent facilities in my area, a few are higher but it is the lower end of the market where prices plummet, the last schooling livery I took on I priced at £40 per day as it was short term, that was well above normal and is about right for the time put in if done well, not many people would pay that for full livery including a decent amount of exercise daily but there are also not many that want that level of service now.

To do a horse, with no riding/exercise, will take me and Mr Red 1 1/2 hours in total. We reckon we are worth 15 to 20 and hour (I charged £40 for teaching). So that is the labour part alone. Then 3 bales of shavings a week, riding school maintenance (just spent 2K on a simple top up) etc etc. £40 a day for you to school and care for a horse would be fair enough IMO.

To be fair, when I want to school mine anywhere other than my own, very small, arena it is £30 just for the arena hire!

Can anybody tell me, are livery yards subject to rates or council tax? Are they classed as businesses?

My arena is part of my private residence. In my area, even having 1 livery or hiring out the arena would put us into business rates. Simply not worth the hassle.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Sadly, I rather agree with you YorksG. The explosion of horse ownership in the last 20 - 25 years, and the rise of scrappy, non-professional places to keep horses which has enabled it, is perhaps not altogether a good thing, for the horses, nor the general standard of horsemanship.

So horse ownership needs to go full circle and become once again something poor minions are excluded from. Sounds like a good solution so I will just have mine PTS then as I do not have the funds to buy my own place within commute of where I work. Should be a win win for everyone.