Why are welshies so sharp?

[FlyingCircus]

ive experienced the exact same thing. Once something is learnt repetition twice is doable, but ask 3 times and they can get flustered for the reason you give - they start questioning if they got it right....if so, why repeat it....they must have it wrong. So repetition of anything over and over in the same session i avoid for purely that reason. I’ll repeat later on in the session, ask once, but never do drilling.
(Unlike dogs - drilling cements in their mind the ask...they seem to like repetition, it usually comes with food reward, so inversely they thrive on it)

If they keep getting something wrong due to not getting it i dont repeat more than 3 times trying to show, the frustration sets in for them, so i move onto a move they know, they then feel relieved, then i move back to the move they didnt get and ask again while adding an extra component to help them understand better what im asking.

The welsh seem to thrive when several moves are known and i string them all together too, like they are testing themselves to see how quickly they can perform the ask, and they like the interraction, the gelding with more arab in him than welsh positively thrives on fast succession asks...he gets really into it, really chuffed with himself...can i even say he’s capable of self-pride?!
But they both certainly like that we ‘speak the same language‘ when training is learnt, and seem to really enjoy doing as asked, having a linked language through training.
When unsure the fluster frustration is evident and perhaps thats what gives them the reputation of being a bit firey, as i can imagine if someone asks slightly differently what they want to their usual training, they could misunderstand what the ask is.

One thing ive learnt with my 2, theyre my only indepth examples i know, so unsure about other welshies, i can’t force an issue, i cant use more and more pressure to aid their understanding, i have to figure out another way to ask, or just move on, then ask again later with same pressure and technique. They usually get the ask with very little pressure/release. They fire up with too much pressure, and the fire brain doesnt learn, that brain just learns training is stressful.
Theyve taught me to become very light with training. As the saying goes, you cant fight fire with fire!

10000% on the self-pride thing! Luna absolutely loves me telling her she's the best thing since sliced bread. It really encourages her to try things. A little shoulder in? Omg! Well done, so clever! Then she almost seems to go "ha, you think that is good, hold my beer" ?

 

[SpeedyPony]

SpeedyPony, I was hoping that the Ds were not so silly.

It depends on your definition of silly, I love the drama, if you find it funny they are wonderful horses to work with.
They learn incredibly fast and, as PurBee says, they like that interaction and connection with the handler. Get one onside and you'll have the best ride of your life, they often predict what you'll want and do it before you need to ask.
But they're not for someone that wants a horse that does what he's told and no more, immediately and unquestioningly. Plus they'll always be prepared to voice an opinion- which I think is why they get a rep for not being easy, you have to make them want to do something, or they'll fight you every step of the way.

 

[FlyingCircus]

SpeedyPony, I was hoping that the Ds were not so silly.

Think it depends what you want them for and your own personality. I enjoy the challenge of almost playing mental chess with my D. I'm also very patient and not easy to fluster (anymore..!). And because I'm chilled, she only slightly has a nervous breakdown at things rather than going OTT.

I got bored of my lovely, easy Connemara who would jump the moon if I asked. So ended up with the welsh to er...provide some entertainment to my life! When I ride the Connemara, I end up thinking about work and life. When I ride the welsh, sometimes I'm concentrating so hard on being a step ahead i probably couldn't tell you where I work!

 

[SEL]

I knew a trekking centre that used a lot of Ds. Doing 4-5 hours a day for 5 days a week kept a lid on the most neurotic behaviours but the owner was always careful about who she retired them to.

I think most of them need to really, really work and if they don't then they find other ways to entertain themselves.

 

[2ndtimearound]

I knew a trekking centre that used a lot of Ds. Doing 4-5 hours a day for 5 days a week kept a lid on the most neurotic behaviours but the owner was always careful about who she retired them to.

I think most of them need to really, really work and if they don't then they find other ways to entertain themselves.

The trekking centre I currently ride at has a lot of Ds (wonder if it’s the same one?) and I’d definitely agree with that. One is pretty much rock solid and most of the others are fine apart from the odd moment, but there is one who can be a twit if he’s in the mood (and you never know when that will be!), but he definitely seems better with the riders who just laugh at his antics and stay relaxed if he’s in one of his silly moods.

 

[rara007]

Many are bred for the show ring not for temperament.
(We’ve mainly had fantastic ones! About 5 section As, 8x Bs, 4x Bs and 1x D over the years and only 2 of the As were sharp though most of the Bs needed jobs, the Cs have been easy and the D was just a bit backwards.) Our current C stallion is probably the most laid back pony on the yard tied with the 29yo Shetland gelding.

 

[scats]

My friend has a registered D who she has owned since he was 4 and he’s the most placid chap. I would say he is in the minority though, and interestingly he is very line bred (grandsire the same on both sides).

It would be interesting to try and work out which lines tend to produce more ‘hot’ horses and which don’t.
I have a part bred, Nebo Magic lines, and sometimes it’s like a switch goes and she loses her brain.

 

[palo1]

I have a Maesmynach Welsh D (mare) and I understood that whilst not especially tricky that they (the Maesmynach lines) can be hot/sharp. My mare has been incredibly easy in fact - we joke here that she either has just a sleepy dragon or a kettle sized one!! However, she can certainly be the very definition of 'Welsh' - for no apparant reason...Her pedigree is pretty 'open' (ie not lots of close relatives on either or both sides). Having said that, she has a pretty relaxed lifestyle - I am not sure how she would cope with a livery yard situation as she is always keen to get involved with 'other' activities (horses being turned out, people walking down the lane etc etc). She is and has always been very bold and forward and I LOVE that I also feel really lucky that from the day I chose her (deffo heart over head) I have felt very comfortable with her and she has always seemed to equally like and trust me. With some other horses I have had to work a bit harder for that but with her we 'clicked' really quickly and I credit her sweet nature and good handling from the stud to have given her that openness and confidence. She has plenty of 'attitude' but absolutely no malice whatsoever. I think Welshies are certainly an acquired taste tbh - a bit like other very 'specific' breeds: Arabs, Spaniards - part of their make-up is a degree of sensitivity, reactiveness and even on occasion 'athleticism' that is belied by their physical appearance. There definately seem to be some lines that are harder work than others too!!

 

[cauda equina]

Interesting that the Arab blood is being mentioned as accounting for 'Welshness'
All the (admittedly few) Arabs I've known have been brave, sensible horses with none of the Welsh-like histrionic tendencies

I read somewhere not to buy Sec Ds that have been shown inhand as youngsters as all the whizzing around is hard to undo

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

That's interesting someone's comment about the absolute no malice what so ever, mine is the same, just hysterical!

Personally I'd never get another, too much drama for me! I don't overly mind the spooking at random things as you find yourself looking for random things to pre empt it. Its the unpredictability of "will he go over the jump" and day to day tasks of him being stupid over that gets irritating.

Does else find theirs an absolute stickler for routine? And if out of routine the hysteria ramps up?

 

[milliepops]

I knew a trekking centre that used a lot of Ds. Doing 4-5 hours a day for 5 days a week kept a lid on the most neurotic behaviours but the owner was always careful about who she retired them to.

I think most of them need to really, really work and if they don't then they find other ways to entertain themselves.

I had a trekking reject that was delightful but had been started badly and so went a bit wonky-headded, that place had lots of hard worked sensible ones too. Mine is always horrendous after time off, i have to remind myself that the first few days will just be knocking the edges off and not to expect anything remotely sensible.

Having said that, she has a pretty relaxed lifestyle - I am not sure how she would cope with a livery yard situation as she is always keen to get involved with 'other' activities (horses being turned out, people walking down the lane etc etc).

oh god yes. "FGS don't get involved!" is something I find myself saying A LOT. Kira is like the most irritating nosy neighbour, always in everyone's business.

Does else find theirs an absolute stickler for routine? And if out of routine the hysteria ramps up?

actually no not particularly. Mine is easiest away from home because she looks to me for security then and as we have a good understanding that works fine. She does notice any change immediately but seems quite adaptable in that way.

 

[milliepops]

I've had a few frustrated tantrums too- I wonder if it's because they're usually so quick on the uptake, I can imagine it must be intensely irritating for them to not understand what you want when they're used to always being two steps ahead.

i think this is spot on, mine has mostly been very trainable because she's so bright and she likes getting things right so will try hard. we hit a mental block last year over something and the wheels came off, well and truly. I've had that before too with a different one, I think they are super smart but now and again there will be something that they just don't understand and they aren't used to the feeling!

 

[Tiddlypom]

I love D's, but as an older person and after owning a D and two D/tbs, my spec for my next horse included 'no welsh blood, not even a teeny bit' .

I love 'em really.

Ability to laugh at them and to sit the spook/spins is essential.

 

[palo1]

I have found with our high %arabs and my Welsh mare that plenty of work and 'tasks' help enormously and that makes sense to me; they are working breeds and have a good brain. I like the quick learning aspect too but you have to stay on the ball so as not to allow the wrong kind of learning lol! Of our 2 current pb Arabs one is of Egyptian breeding and he tends to be much hotter and more of a drama queen than the Bahraini bred horse who is almost irritatingly laid back. The Bahraini lines are more traditional 'working' types than the narrow egyptian types in my experience. I know Welsh cob showing has a name for hysteria and certainly all the razzmataz, bag waving etc is a bit questionable but I do always think that it is a testament to the Welshies character that on the whole they put up with that - similarly the way that Arab horses put up with certain showing practices in their world!! I am not lumping all showing practices or activities together but I think folk will know what I mean.

 

[Spottyappy]

SpeedyPony, I was hoping that the Ds were not so silly.

We have had several. Still have a pure D who is utterly safe as houses. He doesn’t have a spooky or silly bone in his Body. You can put a toddler on him and he wouldn’t do anything even vaguely bad. Backed him very easily,
i lost my own pure bred 18 months ago. She was a stress head, got laminitis when she left her breeder aged 6 at mine, as she was so distraught. We never did manage to long rein her, had to back her with lunging only, as she was too upset by the reins against her side ? However, once backed, she was perfect and you could put your granny on her.
my current girl is Section d x gypsy cob, and she is quite spooky, but otherwise safe.
They can be opinionated. But, my gypsy cob x is far worse than any of the pures we have had…..

 

[NinjaPony]

That's interesting someone's comment about the absolute no malice what so ever, mine is the same, just hysterical!

Personally I'd never get another, too much drama for me! I don't overly mind the spooking at random things as you find yourself looking for random things to pre empt it. Its the unpredictability of "will he go over the jump" and day to day tasks of him being stupid over that gets irritating.

Does else find theirs an absolute stickler for routine? And if out of routine the hysteria ramps up?

Mine loves his routine. Like millipops, if you take him away from home he is much more chilled about it, it’s just on home turf that everything must be exactly his way at the same time. He is actually a lot easier away from home, I used to joke there was so much at a show to upset him that he couldn’t make up his mind and therefore didn’t bother! It’s that strange mix of bravado and cowardice that is hard to explain until you’ve had a Welsh. One minute he’s marching past a whole ring full of carriage horses flying around, the next minute he’s having a meltdown because a fly has landed on him and he can’t flick it off, or someone’s left a rug on the ground that wasn’t there before. He’s a stunning little thing, full of fire and intelligence so is rewarding to work with, but god over 15 years he has really tested me at times. I’m always grateful he’s only 11.2hh, makes the hysterics much easier to deal with. I absolutely adore him, never met a pony with so much character and spark before, but think I’ll stick to a ‘fun size’ version rather than a ridden one…
Would also echo that once someone messes with their head through bad handling, it can be very difficult to undo. Mine came to me in a state, and it’s taken him years and years to stop being incredibly defensive and liable to have a meltdown over small things. He’s much more level than he used to be, and more inclined to stop and think first, but you still have to handle him with a bit of respect and caution, particularly if he doesn’t know you.

 

[Reacher]

I knew little about the welsh reputation when I bought my current ridden horse who is an unregistered welsh x Arab and I wouldnt call him anxious / spooky / whatever.
He is bold, tries his best for me, loves hacking- he is my (2nd) horse of a lifetime.
I’d love another like him but would worried by the stereotypes which is a shame .
He is a bit of an over excitable twerp when doing exciting stuff like XC I have to admit ?

 

[pansymouse]

Its the dragon in them.

I have to say I’ve not met any that are anxious.
Every on ive had has been as bold as brass, a total diva and a drama queen but i just laugh at the dragon impressions.

That's mine to a T. She 28 and showing no signs whatsoever of mellowing.

 

[milliepops]

It’s that strange mix of bravado and cowardice that is hard to explain until you’ve had a Welsh. .

this is exactly it! It comes out in so many ways. Fierce and timid at the same time. Weird isn't it! I do wish mine was one of the big sporty models sometimes but on the other hand 14 hands of furious welsh rhino is quite enough when there's an eruption going on.

 

[Bernster]

Following with interest having recently bought what is thought to be a Welsh X. He does have quite a Welsh look and action but no recorded breeding (not even his mum oddly). I’m not great with sharp diva horses, oops, but will take on board this thread in case I need to adjust how I handle him. He doesn’t seem at all sharp though, he seems like a chilled and happy chap, although we’re only 2 weeks in. He is buzzy to jump and I suspect there’s a bit more go in him which I haven’t really seen yet.

 

[Hackback]

I have an Arab but am on a yard with a lot of Welsh Ds and part breds. I have observed that both Arab and Section Ds are great drama queens when something upsets them. The difference seems to be that my Arab gets over it given time, but the Welshies just can't let it go ? They also seem to have that clever manipulating pony brain which keeps you on your toes all the time (is he undoing the bolt in his stable/untying himself/wrecking something etc) whereas Arabs are intrinsically 'good' people, if somewhat over sensitive lol.

My Arab still thinks he's a race horse but he's grown up with age. I remember falling off over a pheasant flying up from under his feet in our early days together. A similar scenario occurred at the weekend but instead of a split second spook and spin he just looked mildly at the offending creature as if to say 'good day to you Mr Pheasant'. I don't think most Welshies ever achieve that level of maturity ?

(No offence to those who actually do have a sane one!)

 

[marmalade76]

...he gets really into it, really chuffed with himself...can i even say he’s capable of self-pride?!

Oh yes, I've had at least three that definitely have/had a smug mode (not all Welsh or Arab).

 

[Lammy]

I always joked that Welshies are still wild ponies and we’ve just managed to get near them by offering food ? I think a lot of their traits are not so long forgotten survival instincts and the welshies have just hung onto them more than other breeds. I think all the Welsh mares I’ve known, including my own, have been particularly spooky or on the alert for potential threats, tend to be lead mare in a herd and can also have a tendency to be foal proud.

I love them and can’t wait to have another but you certainly need a sense of humour because you really need to be able to laugh when your pony piaffe-snorts past a wooden bench that’s been there for 10 years but all of a sudden it’s become a problem.

 

[McFluff]

It’s that strange mix of bravado and cowardice that is hard to explain until you’ve had a Welsh.

This is my experience too. Mine is a bit of a contradiction. He's hot and forward, but safe - the first few weeks were quite scary as I didn't know how far he would go - now I know him better, and can laugh/reassure as appropriate. He is intrinsically brave, but can have melt-downs (and not at the stuff that could actually harm him!). Sometimes it feels as if he just likes to spice things up a bit, and definitely better with a (preferably admiring) audience. But it is always safe, looks much more dramatic than it feels - particularly when the dragon snorts are deployed

He's very quick and keen to learn, and thrives on praise and reward - definitely better as a partner in crime. You pick your battles and let his 'character' shine through for a more harmonious time. As others have said, I've found it is easier to praise and move on than to try and keep perfecting something. He has an amazing work ethic - the more he does, the better he gets. And as we have been learning together, he is giving me more of a feeling that he will try anything for me now.

I think my boy was started well - but even then, if you reacted to him with fear, force or pressure, I think it could go wrong pretty quickly. He's not at all nasty, he's one of the kindest and friendliest horses I've ever known (lovely to watch in a herd, and he is used as the new horse buddy as he is so reliable and kind), but he does have an underlying anxiety - he can look calm, but once you know him, you can see that he is a worry-pot. I use routine and reward to help manage that anxiety for him.

I'm definitely an addict now - but I would say to someone to only go there if you do have a good sense of humour and are likely to chuckle at cheeky antics - otherwise I suspect you wouldn't be a good fit.

 

[SEL]

I always joked that Welshies are still wild ponies and we’ve just managed to get near them by offering food ? I think a lot of their traits are not so long forgotten survival instincts and the welshies have just hung onto them more than other breeds. .

Anyone else have a problem with water and their welshies? I spent many happy years riding my friend's Sec C who was one of the best handled and bravest ponies I've ever had the pleasure of riding - unless he needed to go through a puddle and then the full ridiculous welsh side came out I AM GOING TO SINK IN THAT BOG. Normally we could manage to avoid puddles (or bribe with food) but there was one time and the end of a looooong circular ride where the toys massively came out the pram 10 mins from home and led to a 30 min detour while I tried to find a non-puddled path.

Obviously he then splashed through his under-water gateway as soon as we were home to get into his field.

 

[palo1]

I suspect that no-one really wants to breed out that particular 'Welshness' and that is why it stays...they are naughty but nice lol!!

 

[palo1]

Anyone else have a problem with water and their welshies? I spent many happy years riding my friend's Sec C who was one of the best handled and bravest ponies I've ever had the pleasure of riding - unless he needed to go through a puddle and then the full ridiculous welsh side came out I AM GOING TO SINK IN THAT BOG. Normally we could manage to avoid puddles (or bribe with food) but there was one time and the end of a looooong circular ride where the toys massively came out the pram 10 mins from home and led to a 30 min detour while I tried to find a non-puddled path.

Obviously he then splashed through his under-water gateway as soon as we were home to get into his field.

That is really funny - my Welsh mare is a total water-horse! I always suspected that puddles/streams etc may be tricky but from day one she has splashed through them, happily popped over them and also loves the hose pipe. She has a charming habit of putting her face in water and blowing bubbles for fun too; I haven't had a horse that does that before and I find it hilarious and very sweet! She is also a horse that can pick blackberries very well...

 

[Hallo2012]

its the inbreeding and the hysterical in hand showing they do as youngsters IMO.

having ridden a whole yard of welshes for a showing producer, the B's are normally the easiest and the D's the most ridiculous especially if entire.

my B is incredibly chilled on the ground and i would only say forward going to ride,not tricky.

 

[palo1]

its the inbreeding and the hysterical in hand showing they do as youngsters IMO.

having ridden a whole yard of welshes for a showing producer, the B's are normally the easiest and the D's the most ridiculous especially if entire.

my B is incredibly chilled on the ground and i would only say forward going to ride,not tricky.

Your chap is such a brilliant ambassador for the breed (and section Bs in particular).

 

[Courbette]

I think welsh are an acquired taste. My experience with them is they are fairly willful and not the most genuine of ponies. I loaned a crafty section A that used to regularly dump me and anybody else who rode him and was very much a character. I then regularly rode a section C who was exceedingly willful and not always kind to his riders and then last year I took a Section D on loan who I was smitten with despite being a known drama queen but who also started to dump me when his workload increased and we parted ways. I have decided that despite them being absolutely beautiful ponies they are maybe not for me! I would class myself as a fairly experienced rider and I am very much at home riding both arabs and iberians but some of the antics I have seen welshies get up I would class as dishonest so while I wouldn't rule the breed out entirely if I was having a native they wouldn't be my first choice.