Why can’t I just do stuff with my horse? Is there a good calmer to help?

[eahotson]

Have been talking about this with a few people recently. The natural horsemanship style of groundwork doesn't, in my admittedly limited experience (being a vaguely interested but non participatory observer) explain very well what you are teaching or why. Its patterns and games applied bluntly that might work for many horses and produce generally favourable results but the owners will be none the wiser about the psychology behind it. You have a game of telephone where the original methods may have been based on sound and clear training methodology but as it trickles down through trainers and practitioners it loses clarity at every step until you have people chasing their horses round a round pen with a lunge whip as they heard "join up is how you build a bond".

Anyway, that conversation was sparked after reading this paper, (Investigation of a potential link between UK equestrians’ understanding of learning theory, and their perception of and response to a problematic equine behaviour) and recently attending a seminar series specifically on learning theory. For my brain in particular, if I am told to do something new, and I don't know why I probably just won't do it tbh, ty probably autism, so even with some basic knowledge of learning theory already installed I found the seminar series hugely helpful. Harder to give clarity to the horse if you don't have it yourself!

A lot of NH groundwork is based in Western riding/training. It can be very helpful and I have heard genuinely experienced riders say that until they have control on the ground they won't even think about riding.You do of course have to know what you are doing.
Join up I loathe.I had a horse that did it with a cheeky young colt to put him in his place.It was fascinating to watch but is at best misunderstood and at worst abused by most human beings.

 

[JFTDWS]

nope I think you are missing the people I am talking about. Exasperated posts exactly about them. You think there is background preparation that I am missing but this group of confident people just get on with it. They have the confidence, just get on with it and the horse trusts them. I'm not sure it occurs to them that it wouldn't.



There is currently a riding young horse thread, forget the name, Some on there have done endless preparation, get on and all is well. Then after a few rides the horse starts to ask questions and they either loose confidence and that is it or end up on the ground. That wouldn't happen to the confident group I am talking about. They would just get on and the horse would go well for them.
I'm not talking here about schooling a horse to a high level but simply getting on and riding it.

there was a more old fashioned person who did horse's teeth. No preparation there, hadn't even met the horse yet could walk up to any horse put the gag on and teeth done. Horse trusted him completely as he was totally confident. The owner had probably done no head handling or anything else.

To bring this back to the OP's original question (rather than other threads which I haven't commented on), I believe that anyone who is willing to take a horse out to clinics / competitions / fun rides and "do stuff" with them without any preparation is most definitely stupid and decidedly unfair on the horse. People who are experienced, astute horsemen can do it with much less prep than someone who hasn't much experience or tact with them, but it's grossly unfair to take horses out to new, potentially stressful situations without any prep at all. I'm quite happy to agree to disagree with you on that point

 

[smolmaus]

I just think some people are inherently born more more natural feel, intuition +/- confidence and that rubs off on the horse.

Absolutely but you can't install that into someone else via mind link like in the matrix so if you're not born like that, it helps to understand the theory behind what's happening I've done some work on myself untangling my instinctive responses vs trained ones and noticed a big difference not just with my own pony but any horse I handle.

My main takeaway from the study was the correlation between not understanding the theory and believing that the horse misbehaves on purpose. If even a very basic level of learning theory stopped any degree of "he is taking the piss out of you, give him a good slap" what a difference that could make!

 

[paddy555]

In the olden days, the golden days of buying a book about breaking a horse, how to prepare it to be ridden, field grazers to ridden hack. One followed simple instructions thoroughly, et voila!!!!! Within 8 weeks walk trot and canter, hacking quietly all over

Capt Elwyn Hartley Edwards from paddock to saddle. I also remember some of his articles in I think it was Riding mag. Max the coloured who I think jumped out the school. Naughty boy, obviously hadn't read all about the theory.

 

[tristars]

Capt Elwyn Hartley Edwards from paddock to saddle. I also remember some of his articles in I think it was Riding mag. Max the coloured who I think jumped out the school. Naughty boy, obviously hadn't read all about the theory.

Henry wynmalen, dressage it was called i think , lost that moving house one time

I think i remember the cob max

But there was lots of books, simple, positive, easy to follow, mainly the same system, to get the horse going nicely, confidently, out and about in a natural way, then school it on later

 

[Exasperated]

It's very true. I remember buying my first 4yo when I was a lot younger, I imported him from Ireland and he'd been sat on at some point I think. One day I just took him for a hack. In hindsight I had no idea if he actually hacked or not I just kind of assumed he did

It went mostly ok other than when we met a pushbike and he spun and took off down the road with me. I thought "well that didn't go to plan", we turned around again and carried on. The next time we met a bike I kicked on a bit more. I took that horse all over - hacking, hunt rides, shows etc. with zero real preparation other than I'd deal with what I got once we got there. He actually turned into the best horse I've ever owned in the sense he was unflappable and you could take him anywhere. I do wonder if I just got incredibly lucky, or it was my 'young dumb' blase attitude to just expecting him to do stuff, so he did.

I do miss that sort of youthful confidence, these days I'm a middle-aged worrier than over-analyses everything and has to make a military plan before doing anything new

I agree, but without going all ‘good old days of golden youth’, must also recognise that many now have to hack horses on roads with more vehicles, on bridleways full of bicycles, dog walkers, etc, very few of whom have any idea about horse reactions, so the opportunity for incidents has comparatively increased.
Also, most HH posters are older, with more appreciation of possible issues, just how debilitating or expensive or upsetting horse and human injuries could be, so a protective natural caution develops. And that’s ok, since vast majority don’t dream of high risk horse sport, they’d just like to enjoy their pony. So why on earth do so many of them not get on and do just that?
I’ve read multiple posts where owners have had their horse for 6months, a year, still never been out for a ride, with answers on the lines of ‘early days yet’, ‘took me several years to get to know mine’, ‘take it steady, baby steps’ (is the infant here horse or human?), ‘more groundwork to build trust’, ‘get a professional on first’ (whatever that means), ‘must have a companion’ - and generally wasting their lives, and it is very, very sad, and very, very unnecessary. And it must be so boring for the poor horses.
(ah, but he’s in a field, just being a horse.... and all these other livery women just drinking coffee all day, agree)
Heigh-ho.

 

[paddy555]

To bring this back to the OP's original question (rather than other threads which I haven't commented on), I believe that anyone who is willing to take a horse out to clinics / competitions / fun rides and "do stuff" with them without any preparation is most definitely stupid and decidedly unfair on the horse. People who are experienced, astute horsemen can do it with much less prep than someone who hasn't much experience or tact with them, but it's grossly unfair to take horses out to new, potentially stressful situations without any prep at all. I'm quite happy to agree to disagree with you on that point

what actual prep would you have done yourself?

as I understand it the mare travelled from Europe so travelling is not unknown. If she has travelled and been handled over that distance going to a show is no great event. She is broken to ride so riding is not unknown and she has had a foal. The foal was weaned and removed so the mare was alone with the rest of her herd.

The first para of the OP says the mare was upset at leaving the herd. That appears to have been the real problem

so how would you have handled this?

 

[Boulty]

I think there are certain horses with the right life skills, training, confidence & personality that just about anyone can just get on & do stuff with. There are also people with enough skill, timing, feel and confidence (with a bit of common sense thrown in) who can get on & do stuff with just about any horse. There are also horses who need such careful management for various reasons that very few people will be able to have them safely and happily doing a lot & definitely some riders who need a very specific type of horse / for whom the spectrum of horses they will be safe and happy with is quite small.

I think most of us (horses & people) are somewhere in the middle. Most horses that are not a total neurotic mess can be gotten to a stage where they can go on outings quite happily but if you don’t want initial outings to be a bit of a disaster then it’s wise to put at least SOME prep work in at home.

I’ve had precisely one “easy” horse (& even then he taught teenage me a lot about forwardness & erm catching… lots about catching!) He covered for a lot of holes in my own knowledge at the time because he was so willing to crack on with the job even if I got things a bit wrong. The next horse who expected more human input & needed quite a bit of convincing that the world was not in fact out to get him was a bit of an awakening as getting on, having a go and assuming all would be well definitely didn’t work for him as a strategy! (I did actually do quite a lot with him (on his terms) once I’d improved my own competence and figured out how to arrange the universe to his liking!)

Coming back to the present I know I’m never going to be one of those people with an endless well of confidence & I don’t necessarily have the stick ability for large acrobatic displays so I do probably do more prep work on the ground than some people as a result so that I can trust in the horse being sufficiently well set up for what’s being asked that violent objections are unlikely. (Although as I want to do TREC with him eventually really good groundwork & experience being led in a variety of environments is a definite advantage as it makes led obstacles easy more or less guaranteed points)

 

[paddy555]

Have been talking about this with a few people recently. The natural horsemanship style of groundwork doesn't, in my admittedly limited experience (being a vaguely interested but non participatory observer) explain very well what you are teaching or why. Its patterns and games applied bluntly that might work for many horses and produce generally favourable results but the owners will be none the wiser about the psychology behind it. You have a game of telephone where the original methods may have been based on sound and clear training methodology but as it trickles down through trainers and practitioners it loses clarity at every step until you have people chasing their horses round a round pen with a lunge whip as they heard "join up is how you build a bond".

Anyway, that conversation was sparked after reading this paper, (Investigation of a potential link between UK equestrians’ understanding of learning theory, and their perception of and response to a problematic equine behaviour) and recently attending a seminar series specifically on learning theory. For my brain in particular, if I am told to do something new, and I don't know why I probably just won't do it tbh, ty probably autism, so even with some basic knowledge of learning theory already installed I found the seminar series hugely helpful. Harder to give clarity to the horse if you don't have it yourself!

I have no idea what natural horseanship is. It seems to be many different things to different people. A blanket description covering just about anything anyone wants it to.

Ii started reading that link but it was beyond me. Give me a horse and I can probably find a way round a problem but I just fall into the category who don't understand learning theory. I'm not sure horses do either. Riding/training a horse is a practical skill. Rather than spend time learning all this theory and still being no further forward with the practical application I would think there was far more benefit of actually working hands on with different horses.

Some people are born very confident with horses, some less so but are still very effective riders but it seems to me that these theory learning courses are simply the alternative to actually having to push yourself and get past the fear and get on, ride many miles and enjoy their horse.

I can see that there is more need for more training of the horse than in the past. He needs to be trained to bikes, bigger tractors with loaders etc. That is valuable practical training but it doesn't seem to be t he thing covered in theory courses. .

In the past people learnt to understand the horse because they worked hands on with a horse. That is how they got to understand him.
We seem to have moved on from those people to the current ones who need a course for everything. Courses of course are great. People running them make lots of money.
The bottom line is probably are the horses any better and the answer may well be no. They have gone from people/riders who didn't have the theory but who did get on with the job and thus gave them the confidence to riders who now do courses, ask about their problems on here and may well leave the horse lacking in the confidence/leadership he needs.

 

[rhino]

Coming back to the present I know I’m never going to be one of those people with an endless well of confidence & I don’t necessarily have the stick ability for large acrobatic displays so I do probably do more prep work on the ground than some people as a result so that I can trust in the horse being sufficiently well set up for what’s being asked that violent objections are unlikely. (Although as I want to do TREC with him eventually really good groundwork & experience being led in a variety of environments is a definite advantage as it makes led obstacles easy more or less guaranteed points)

Trec training is brilliant for building general skills as the obstacles give a context that most horses understand. It really teaches them to ‘think’ and develop proprioception skills.

I have used Trec to teach my youngster a lot of groundwork skills, e.g turn on forehand, lateral work, rather than teach the movements discretely first, if that makes sense?

There are some online Trec challenges that are fun and provide some structure and useful feedback. Most of the winter leagues are finishing off about now but Trec UK and AEC both run summer competitions which can be done at all levels, in hand or ridden.

 

[feesh]

Henry wynmalen, dressage it was called i think , lost that moving house one time

I think i remember the cob max

But there was lots of books, simple, positive, easy to follow, mainly the same system, to get the horse going nicely, confidently, out and about in a natural way, then school it on later

I have Henry Wynmalen's Equitation, which must have been my mom's originally, because I grew up reading it. So much "just getting on with it" and very useful information about backing. Although there are some bits that seem to gloss over the actual work. Something like "have your youngster stand while your helper canters past. He might fuss at first but will soon learn to stand quietly." So much happening in those last six words!

 

[tristars]

I have Henry Wynmalen's Equitation, which must have been my mom's originally, because I grew up reading it. So much "just getting on with it" and very useful information about backing. Although there are some bits that seem to gloss over the actual work. Something like "have your youngster stand while your helper canters past. He might fuss at first but will soon learn to stand quietly." So much happening in those last six words!

I had his book on breeding which featured the anglo arab stallion basa, one of my favourite book it also had pics of bascar son of basa but bigger, almost like my stallion part anglo 15.2 and his son more tb, 16.2 ive only just realised that!!! Never dreamt i would get near to replicating the wynmalen horses, all greys of course

 

[JFTDWS]

what actual prep would you have done yourself?

as I understand it the mare travelled from Europe so travelling is not unknown. If she has travelled and been handled over that distance going to a show is no great event. She is broken to ride so riding is not unknown and she has had a foal. The foal was weaned and removed so the mare was alone with the rest of her herd.

The first para of the OP says the mare was upset at leaving the herd. That appears to have been the real problem

so how would you have handled this?

What I would've done isn't relevant to the OP at all. I don't know what I would've done because I'd be speculating wildly about a horse I haven't seen and don't know. And, just as the OP's horse isn't one of mine, the OP isn't me - she hasn't spent 30 years doing stuff with horses and learning how to read and handle them, firstly as a fearless youth, latterly as a more horse-conscious adult. I didn't actually comment on the OP's behaviour, but I tried to answer the title question and make some comments about stepping back and re-considering how she's doing things. That's never a bad thing to do. But, as ever, you seem to be missing my point

 

[KikiDee]

I agree, but without going all ‘good old days of golden youth’, must also recognise that many now have to hack horses on roads with more vehicles, on bridleways full of bicycles, dog walkers, etc, very few of whom have any idea about horse reactions, so the opportunity for incidents has comparatively increased.
Also, most HH posters are older, with more appreciation of possible issues, just how debilitating or expensive or upsetting horse and human injuries could be, so a protective natural caution develops. And that’s ok, since vast majority don’t dream of high risk horse sport, they’d just like to enjoy their pony. So why on earth do so many of them not get on and do just that?
I’ve read multiple posts where owners have had their horse for 6months, a year, still never been out for a ride, with answers on the lines of ‘early days yet’, ‘took me several years to get to know mine’, ‘take it steady, baby steps’ (is the infant here horse or human?), ‘more groundwork to build trust’, ‘get a professional on first’ (whatever that means), ‘must have a companion’ - and generally wasting their lives, and it is very, very sad, and very, very unnecessary. And it must be so boring for the poor horses.
(ah, but he’s in a field, just being a horse.... and all these other livery women just drinking coffee all day, agree)
Heigh-ho.

I see it with my own eyes every day as well. I'm going off on a tangent away from the original topic but the never-ending lungeing is a new-to-me phenomenon also. I might lunge a very fresh horse for 15 minutes before getting on if I think I'm going to get catapulted into orbit, but there seems to be a rising trend around me of having to lunge your horse for 30 minutes before you even consider getting on it... because it has had 2 days off in the field. Going to a show? Better lunge it for 40 minutes before you load it up first, then give it a good 20 minute walk around the car-park when you get there just to be sure. These aren't youngsters, they are established horses that have done lots of stuff in their lives. Personally I expect my adult horses that have been under saddle for several years to know their job well enough to be able to get on and ride without doing a week of lungeing first, if not then I've over-horsed myself. But they seem to psych themselves up so much to getting to the actual 'riding' bit that it becomes a huge ordeal, then of course when they do get on - the horse is fine - which just convinces them that a week of lungeing is required before every 20 minute plod down the road and back in order for it to be a success. If a minor blip occurs on said hack, instead of dealing with it, better go back to another week of lungeing until you're really 'ready'.

I'm not criticising these riders but honestly where is the enjoyment? and why is their support network endorsing this and feeding into the whole charade?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I very much doubt that any rider who has the confidence to just get on and do stuff, with or without the experience to base that confidence on, would have been likely to post asking for advice about a calmer. They would simply have got on and done their stuff.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

And a lot of horse handling just needs to be black and white.

I’m not dissing ‘groundwork’ but a lot of less experienced people do ‘groundwork’ with the absolute best of intentions but just end up confusing and frustrating the horse. This then translates to ridden work.

On the whole horses are compliant and trainable creatures. They just like consistency and to know where they stand!

This is so true.

I think a lot of people use groundwork to mitigate a lack of confidence, rather than approach groundwork confidently.

In my view, groundwork can't be tentative and vague, nothing with horses really can. I really rate working a horse from the ground but when I do it's with really clear objectives, similar to schooling from the saddle.

I also don't think that getting a horse to work for you is necessarily about experience.

One of our previous freelancers has years of experience, and equine sciences degree, and is a nice rider. But she's just not a very naturally authoritative person who owns her space. Mim ran circles around her. And I could never address the behavior with Mim because Mim would never present the behavior to me.

I think there a huge value in being quietly authoritative. I don't think loud authority works with horses any better than either 'loud' hesitance or quiet hesitance does.

 

[New Forests Rock]

Very eloquently put @LadyGascoyne and exactly my own thoughts. For groundwork to be effective it needs to be clear, consistent and quietly confident.

 

[daffy44]

I think the problem with groundwork is its such a broad term, in the same way "riding" can mean going for a hack round the block, or jumping round Badminton.

I am a big fan of groundwork, and I use it with my horses and I find it very effective. But because my clients know I use groundwork, they come to me knowing that I'm happy if they want to do groundwork with their horses before they get on, and I am, thats fine by me. But when I see what passes for groundwork with some people its astonishing, and when I ask what they are trying to achieve with the groundwork, I frequently get blank stares.

Its such a shame, because it can be so brilliant, but as with most things, if you dont take the time to really learn more about it, and what you are aiming for, and how to do it well, it can all become a wishy washy waste of time.

 

[ester]

I think sometimes it can be tricky to find people to teach you about it properly.
For me, even if I'm muddling along a bit mostly in walk its the thing that's really taught me how much even my particularly non reactive horses pick up on my mental state, I'm a bit of a busy headed person generally, and prone to get a bit frustrated (with myself) but I think it has improved my riding then too, and a bit more noticing how horse is feeling in its body.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I think sometimes it can be tricky to find people to teach you about it properly.
For me, even if I'm muddling along a bit mostly in walk its the thing that's really taught me how much even my particularly non reactive horses pick up on my mental state, I'm a bit of a busy headed person generally, and prone to get a bit frustrated (with myself) but I think it has improved my riding then too, and a bit more noticing how horse is feeling in its body.

It is a hard thing to find, I’d love someone really local that could give me some pointers.

 

[Marigold4]

Capt Elwyn Hartley Edwards from paddock to saddle. I also remember some of his articles in I think it was Riding mag. Max the coloured who I think jumped out the school. Naughty boy, obviously hadn't read all about the theory.

I like this book. He is so sure of himself. Based on so much experience, he presents a really useful step by step guide. No beating round the bush - this is how you do it!

 

[paddy555]

It is a hard thing to find, I’d love someone really local that could give me some pointers.

if groundwork is simply work on the ground then there are so many varieties and everything we do on the ground is groundwork for eg the young horse being led in who decides to go over the top of you and needs correction. The ground work I do is based on Tellington Jones methods but I would guess that is a very long way and aiming to achieve different objectives from the groundwork someone like Daffy would do. For people without access to a school it will also be different.

 

[poiuytrewq]

if groundwork is simply work on the ground then there are so many varieties and everything we do on the ground is groundwork for eg the young horse being led in who decides to go over the top of you and needs correction. The ground work I do is based on Tellington Jones methods but I would guess that is a very long way and aiming to achieve different objectives from the groundwork someone like Daffy would do. For people without access to a school it will also be different.

I don’t have access to a school, but do have a flat dry field now.
Horse leads perfectly and Is very easy to handle. It’s more strengthening work and introducing more lateral stuff, mainly just horse body maintenance I guess. To help keep everything strong and correct. She’s quite nappy so building confidence as well.
I’m just a bit lost as to starting!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

With our freelancer, I actually wondered whether something like acting classes would work.

It wasn't that she didn't communicate the instructions using the correct cues, it was the manner in which that communication occurred.

I sort of wanted to give her an exercise like "ask me to 'open the door'"

- as yourself
- as if you were encouraging someone to enter into a secret garden
- as if you were a police officer commanding a suspect
- as if you were a parent with an upset child
- as if you were being chased
- as if you were seducing someone
- as if you were giving instructions on a two person video game

Where you have to vary body language and voice and communicate and entire situation with only the same three words.

I think with ground work and ridden work, there really is something in embodying a level of quiet, authoritative confidence. I'm not sure how conscious people are about the fact that so much of communication is body language, and everything from the set of your shoulders, the cadence of your breathing, the length in your step is being read by horse (and humans).

You can easily think you're asking the horse exactly the same thing as the person next to you, and getting a different response. But are you asking it in the same way?