Why do you need a noseband for dressage?

[McFluff]

This is probably a daft question, but I'm wondering why you need to have a noseband to compete in dressage? Is it for presentation or is there another reason?

To me (as someone relatively new to competing, although I have ridden for years) it seems odd that you can have really strong/tight nosebands, but you can't choose to have none. I suspect there will be a perfectly sensible explanation, just can't seem to find what it is.

 

[MrsMozart]

Good question. I await the answer with interest

 

[milliepops]

The tack rules are pretty basic really, the requirement is simply for an english style bridle and traditionally an english bridle includes a noseband of some kind. You can choose to just have a normal cavesson and fasten it loosely, plenty of us do Apart from saving on the tack cleaning, I don't see why anyone would object to using one like that.

I guess it's about standardisation - same as you have to have a bit of some kind, and you have to have a conventional english style saddle, not a western one etc.

 

[Cortez]

'cos them's the rules.

 

[McFluff]

Fair 'nuff

Just wondered if I was missing something

Thanks

 

[SpringArising]

it seems odd that you can have really strong/tight nosebands, but you can't choose to have none.

Doesn't it just.

 

[ycbm]

I think there may be some purpose to it. It does help the judge decide whether the horse is tilting its head, which is particularly useful on horses with skew wiff face markings.

 

[BBP]

I still don't really understand why you need a bit for dressage (now that I'm a hippie!), surely if your horse is working properly it's working properly, regardless of its tack. But I accept those are the rules of dressage, I think of it as being like showing which has its own turn out standards, I think it's quite outdated and old fashioned and so I choose not to compete (well that's one of the reasons). But I do try to work my horse correctly at home, just as I would if competing, because it's all about developing his athletic ability.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I still don't really understand why you need a bit for dressage (now that I'm a hippie!), surely if your horse is working properly it's working properly, regardless of its tack. But I accept those are the rules of dressage, I think of it as being like showing which has its own turn out standards, I think it's quite outdated and old fashioned and so I choose not to compete (well that's one of the reasons). But I do try to work my horse correctly at home, just as I would if competing, because it's all about developing his athletic ability.

I have my tin hat at the ready, as I think my opinion might not sit with others

The majority of bitless options work on exerting a tightening pressure around the nose, and indirectly the poll which I think is then seen as an unfair advantage almost - rightly or wrongly.

I don't think it is old-fashioned. Having limited tack options makes it more of a constant when faced with many combinations of horse and rider in the same class.

I guess maybe there should be classes for people that can ride a horse correctly with no bridle at all - natural carriage and all that.

 

[milliepops]

wheeee! Leaping off the deep end :lol:

Yes I agree with Nugget, I think the bit is needed for standardisation and consistency. How does one judge acceptance of the contact, on a horse that does not wear a bit? It's mentioned on every test sheet. You can have a horse working forward with a swinging back to a particular 'outline' but you do not have the final element which is acceptance of the bit, or connection from hindlegs to bit, however you like to phrase it.

There are many other things we may not use in dressage - one being you can't use a bit or noseband that transfers the pressure from the rein from the bit to the nose. You may not use a curb below elementary. etc

Some online dressage comps are now running bitless classes. I know of at least one place that runs actual shows which allow bitless and bareback for those people who want to ride that way... it's unaff, I'm not sure if the classes are mixed or if the bitless is separate. Must be a bit tough to judge all together.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Adding to the above ^

Bitless cannot have the same contact as with a bit, which is one of the fundamental scored aspects of the tests. As much as I dislike certain dressage rules, as soon as I pay my membership and compete I have to accept them and do the best I can within them.

Nosebands are a bit of an oddity to me and I would happily see cranks banned, I see no purpose for them in modern dressage. I see them as far worse than any grackle or drop, due to the intense discomfort (when fastened tightly!) on the cheeks pressing into the teeth of the horse...

Another musing (please educate me on this as it is only my wonderings!) I have about bitless and if it were potentially allowed and then seen all the way up the levels, would be that although bitless is generally used in a kind and positive way I could see it being just as abused as bits if it was allowed. The forces that most bitless bridles exert on the face, nose and poll can be very severe with maybe not quite the same obvious signs of discomfort to the horse. With a bit a horse can evade (as someone who rides a horse who is bit shy I very much know about this!), but with bitless would it be as obvious? They couldn't just open their mouth to avoid it and most designs I've seen would offer little release for the horse to be able to seek (from what I've seen they seem to mostly rely on good riding and the rider releasing)?

I'd be concerned that if it became common place then it could be easier for the less educated rider (or more ruthless to go up the levels), a bitless option could be miss-used as it could potentially be easier to 'pin' the horse in without as obvious a reaction. Who knows I'd hope that I would be wrong on this, but sometimes in the horsey world things which start off for the greater good have a habit of not turning out quite as expected.

 

[milliepops]

I'd be concerned that if it became common place then it could be easier for the less educated rider (or more ruthless to go up the levels), a bitless option could be miss-used as it could potentially be easier to 'pin' the horse in without as obvious a reaction. Who knows I'd hope that I would be wrong on this, but sometimes in the horsey world things which start off for the greater good have a habit of not turning out quite as expected.

yes, you said it better than I though I was hinting at it as we can't put pressure on the nose nor use a curb until introduced as the double bridle (which requires greater positive acceptance of the bit first, because otherwise it looks REALLY ugly).. many bitless configurations are in fact nose or curb pressure or both.

I am more easy going on the crank, knowing how I use them which is no tighter than a standard cavesson I wish they were renamed!! After fairfax published their research I felt better still as they found there were pressure-releasing elements in crank vs standard cavesson

 

[HufflyPuffly]

yes, you said it better than I though I was hinting at it as we can't put pressure on the nose nor use a curb until introduced as the double bridle (which requires greater positive acceptance of the bit first, because otherwise it looks REALLY ugly).. many bitless configurations are in fact nose or curb pressure or both.

I am more easy going on the crank, knowing how I use them which is no tighter than a standard cavesson I wish they were renamed!! After fairfax published their research I felt better still as they found there were pressure-releasing elements in crank vs standard cavesson

Haha I admit I also use a crank (whispers and flash ) but know that although many of us out there use them sensibly and kindly many more don't! Mine is loose, as is the flash but I am tempted to go back to the grackle which she loves as a noseband and we used before our dressage forays.

It is sad that items cannot be trusted to be used or used within rules, as a minority of people cannot be trusted to use them correctly , maybe I should rethink my ban on cranks to a proper enforceable tack check in all BD competitions and all too tight nosebands should result in the elimination of the rider...

Sorry just a bug bear of mine seeing horses in either unintentional or intentional discomfort from badly fitting tack, I shall remove my soapbox now .

 

[milliepops]

Right there with you. dunno about you but at my tack checks at recent AFs they did indeed check tightness of the noseband

Most day shows are self stewarding though so not sure how they would get the manpower to do it every time... but if you're relying on over-tight tack then it will come unstuck at champ shows.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Now I didn't say it was a feasible suggestion and you are right about champ shows, though they didn't check noseband on mine but then you can generally see daylight between leather and face they probably thought it not needed .

 

[smja]

I think there may be some purpose to it. It does help the judge decide whether the horse is tilting its head, which is particularly useful on horses with skew wiff face markings.

Or you can adjust a noseband to be slightly wonky, to help a horse that constantly tilts one way to look more straight...

I just see a noseband as part of the 'outfit' for dressage. Same as I can choose which stock I wear and how tightly I tie it, I can choose which noseband my horse wears and how tightly I fasten it.

 

[McFluff]

Good to see all the views - I hadn't thought of the judges perspective, but can appreciate that a noseband will help them see levelness (assuming of course that the noseband is level!). I do appreciate that there needs to be standards and rules in place. And I don't envy those responsible for keeping up with research and trying to keep rules up to date from both a horse welfare and standardisation for judging point of view, it isn't an easy call to make (or to police).

I always work to try and make my mare as comfortable as possible (turns out she is more sensitive than my TB was!). I have a padded caveson, and it was on very loose, but it seems to rub her where it goes behind the cheek pieces. I took noseband off and have a much happier horse. Now need to find one that doesn't rub so that we can get out and about... It was just as I was researching options (and preparing self for the cost of options!), that I wondered why I had to put one on at all. Sadly current bridle doesn't have a flat noseband option (it buckles on both sides of headpiece), so I suspect a new bridle will be on my shopping list...

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Can you not just buy a new noseband that buckles both sides? Either a flat cavesson or something which doesn't touch the sensitive part that's getting rubbed? Plenty our there which do have buckles both sides, though as I love spending money I think a new bridle is still reasonable .

I'm debating trying the grackle again due to it sitting on a less sensitive part of the face (now they are BD legal and wayyy cheaper than some of the very fancy new nosebands ), but worried it may look like I'm trying to strap her mouth shut...

 

[BBP]

Interesting perspectives, thank you. is a flash or grackle or cranked cavesson not equally a way to disguise evasion and lack of acceptance of the bit? (honest question - don't want to come across as a bit basher cos im not!) As I said I do accept that those are the rules, as you have to standardise certain things to create fairness in competition, and so i choose not to play. I can certainly see some bitless bridles being incredibly severe and misused so I understand that perspective (and am happy to hear that checks are done on noseband tightness). I do try to work my horse properly, just minus the acceptance of the bit part I suppose. I'll post a couple of photographs below and would be interested to hear thoughts on any observations you have on whether my horse would not be considered to be working at a level that would be expected by a dressage judge at Novice level. (this is an absolutely genuine post as I am in no way anti bit, its just that this horse in particular seems a much happier chap since I switched, perhaps I had the wrong bit, who knows!, but I would like to think I am not causing him harm by doing so)

He is working in a sidepull with gel padded nose in a nice contact so as far as I can tell there is no poll pressure, but I could be wrong?

Sorry to side track the post, I just found the responses above interesting and hadn't thought about all of them before, so wondered what the view would be on my horse and whether this particular set up would advantage or disadvantage me against horses ridden in kit as standardised in dressage rules?

(edit, my left hand seems to have a mind of its own...apparently being bitless doesn't cure bad riding!)

 

[milliepops]

Kat I'm absolutely sure you're not doing anything your horse is unhappy with! I don't believe anyone who has ever read any of your posts would believe that you would do so either Below is my honest answer which I hope you take in the manner intended, that is with no criticism - I know how long and difficult your journey has been and I'm so pleased for you that you're finding a way though it

Very very hard to say from photos , video is much easier. For me, as a moment in time, it looks like he is a little braced in the underneck in your photos, though otherwise it's a sweet picture.
If he was bitted, I'd expect that to feel a little ungiving in the mouth. I'd also probably expect to feel the back had stopped swinging or, generally, a loss of throughness.

Because you don't have that connection to the mouth, (which as riders tells us so much about how much of the mind and body has truly given itself to us) you perhaps don't feel that last bit of resistance? He's popped his head into what we would traditionally have called an outline, so he look submissive and sweet. But that last bit, the way the underneck muscles are not soft, gives away that he's still not quite using himself the way we aspire to with the scales of training. (you can feel free to disagree with those principles, but that's what dressage calls the gold standard so relevant here).

I expect my weirdo cob would stop napping about the outside rein if I took her bitless, so it would feel happier to us both, but I'd actually be sidestepping the basic training issue that holds her back, IMO.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Yes flash, grackles, etc are used to disguise bit evasion so yes it is still possible but only up to the point of needing to use a double and once you hit advanced and want to do any FEI tests (admittedly this is a very small number of people), you have to use a double even if you'd rather use a snaffle (see above where I said I disagreed with some of the dressage rules ).

I think your pictures show a lovely picture and, as much as you can tell from a photo, you look like you'd not be out of place at novice level to me. It would be interesting how you find the lateral work in the sidepull, as for us it has been a big step up to elementary and one huge leap into medium , so it's really interesting to think how bitless could be better or worse (who knows lol) for the sideways stuff.

I've found as much as getting a bit that Topaz found comfortable was definitely a big part of advancing our dressage, really for us it came down to training and the fact she had never been taught how to be ridden into a contact but instead had learned how to evade one (she's a very sensitive horse). It's been a super long road for us and we've had none of your physical/ veterinary issues to deal with on top of the contact issues.

 

[BBP]

No, you are absolutely correct in your observations, and funnily I do feel all those little things when I ride, including that brace and the subtle resistances, which I hadn't expected to pick up in a bitless bridle. My plan had been to hack bitless and school bitted, but he showed so much more relaxation in his mind without the bit that i thought I would persist for a while bitless and see what we could achieve. I shall have to get a video of him now and before as what the photos don't show is that he has gone from being completely resistant and massively tense under his neck and over his back, to these shots which show a massive improvement and a willingness to try (don't get me wrong, I credit the change in saddle for this improvement rather than the bridle!). We are both still working on changing that resistance musculature that he has had for 8 years so it is one step at a time at the moment. I would expect in a dressage test for a judge to pick up the same things that you did, as you can clearly see what is correct and what is not from the images, let alone without the video. I guess that is why I wondered why I couldn't compete with this set up, as any good judge ought to be able to say the sort of things that you just said and I wouldn't be at an advantage, it would be for me to decide how to improve on his work, either to reintroduce a bit or not.

 

[BBP]

Yes flash, grackles, etc are used to disguise bit evasion so yes it is still possible but only up to the point of needing to use a double and once you hit advanced and want to do any FEI tests (admittedly this is a very small number of people), you have to use a double even if you'd rather use a snaffle (see above where I said I disagreed with some of the dressage rules ).

I think your pictures show a lovely picture and, as much as you can tell from a photo, you look like you'd not be out of place at novice level to me. It would be interesting how you find the lateral work in the sidepull, as for us it has been a big step up to elementary and one huge leap into medium , so it's really interesting to think how bitless could be better or worse (who knows lol) for the sideways stuff.

I've found as much as getting a bit that Topaz found comfortable was definitely a big part of advancing our dressage, really for us it came down to training and the fact she had never been taught how to be ridden into a contact but instead had learned how to evade one (she's a very sensitive horse). It's been a super long road for us and we've had none of your physical/ veterinary issues to deal with on top of the contact issues.

His lateral work is lovely in it in that we go sideways in all sorts of angles and directions lightly and without fuss, but I would image it is not technically correct, not necessarily because of my bridle choice but because I am not a particularly 'schooled' rider at the moment, so I am not 100% sure if we are doing it right!

I think probably if I shifted him back to a bit he would work in the same way, as he is very trainable, and seems to love his new saddle, its amazing how you don't know how badly your old one was affecting your horse until you change it! i thought he was always evasive and resistance because i wasn't a very good rider. All of a sudden I have changed the saddle and he seems so different! he has a lot of upside down musculature to gently correct now. (For example, in an average photo session with my mum she may take 100 photographs, two years ago there may have been one or two of the bunch that caught a second in time when he dropped his nose to look pretty (a little like the side on shot above) and I thought, that'll have to do. The rest would all be very obviously resistant. This time round she took 100 photographs and a couple were very obviously hollow and resistant, but at least 95 of them he was really improved - not there yet but improved!)

Sorry, have turned this into an 'all about me and the bonkers pony' thread! (Im one of those people who apparently makes everything about them!) I'll stop. back to talking about nosebands!

 

[debserofe]

I asked the question re nosebands to BHS and BRC and was told that they didn't know why (although there was a muttering about safety!). British Dressage, BHS and BRC appear to be harping back to hunting safety rules and are so out of touch with modern equipment that it is scary! Dressage should be all about harmony between horse and rider, a true partnership working together without the use of gadgets, cranks, drop (quite often overnight) nosebands but there seems to be no rule (only guidance) that states how tight a noseband can be, despite the rule (not guidance) on having one! I have cancelled my memberships and no longer take my horses to their training days or events as the only way they are going to look at changing the rules is if nobody continues to pay them money to adhere to their outdated rules!

 

[milliepops]

I would expect in a dressage test for a judge to pick up the same things that you did, as you can clearly see what is correct and what is not from the images, let alone without the video. I guess that is why I wondered why I couldn't compete with this set up, as any good judge ought to be able to say the sort of things that you just said and I wouldn't be at an advantage, it would be for me to decide how to improve on his work, either to reintroduce a bit or not.

OK, so bluntly this comes back to standardisation then IMO and creating a level-ish playing field in this one respect.
Again, this is meant in a kind way not taking anything away from you, but as an example - in order to gain control over Millie in the XC phase when we were eventing, I added a kineton noseband because she is more compliant to nose pressure than to bitting. Pressure on the bit led to ears-up-nose hooking off with me, but pressure on nose meant I was in charge and I could stop that happening.

In competitive dressage, though, it's my job to teach her to be compliant (and happy) to the bit. I could increase her compliance by adding nose pressure and using that, but that would not be taking part in the same competition as the riders who were educating their horses to the bit.

It's not just about training, it's a competition, and part of the competition is the horse's acceptance of the bit.

You are perfectly within your rights and quite correct to pursue your own path *outside of the competition arena*. Same as Classical dressage of the old skool where everything was done one handed on the curb only.. fine at home as a training or academic pursuit, but has no place in our contemporary competitive dressage scene. Again, said without judgement, but that's not what is described by the rules of our national dressage body .

 

[Cortez]

For those of you who don't want to play by the tack rules but still like to go out for a tootle around the competition arena, why not do what I do? I compete my horse in a curb, ridden one-handed, Hors Concours. You'd be surprised at the scores you can get

 

[Taliesan]

wheeee! Leaping off the deep end :lol:

Yes I agree with Nugget, I think the bit is needed for standardisation and consistency. How does one judge acceptance of the contact, on a horse that does not wear a bit? It's mentioned on every test sheet. You can have a horse working forward with a swinging back to a particular 'outline' but you do not have the final element which is acceptance of the bit, or connection from hindlegs to bit, however you like to phrase it.

There are many other things we may not use in dressage - one being you can't use a bit or noseband that transfers the pressure from the rein from the bit to the nose. You may not use a curb below elementary. etc

Some online dressage comps are now running bitless classes. I know of at least one place that runs actual shows which allow bitless and bareback for those people who want to ride that way... it's unaff, I'm not sure if the classes are mixed or if the bitless is separate. Must be a bit tough to judge all together.

If you are wanting standardisation and consistency then surely only allowing one type of noseband and one type of bit would be the only way? Nosebands have different effects on horses, as do different types of bits. Therefore there are little grounds for standardisation in dressage at the moment, in my opinion at least.

How does one judge the acceptance of the contact on a horse where the noseband is done up too tightly? How do you judge the acceptance of the contact in a horse that is wearing a cavesson noseband as compared to a crank or grackle?

 

[milliepops]

If you are wanting standardisation and consistency then surely only allowing one type of noseband and one type of bit would be the only way? Nosebands have different effects on horses, as do different types of bits. Therefore there are little grounds for standardisation in dressage at the moment, in my opinion at least.

How does one judge the acceptance of the contact on a horse where the noseband is done up too tightly? How do you judge the acceptance of the contact in a horse that is wearing a cavesson noseband as compared to a crank or grackle?

Well, JMHO, but seeing the way the FEI and then BD adopt different bits etc into the permitted tack, I'd say the variety allowed is to give riders an opportunity to select the best combination for their horse *within limits*. The limits being you must use a noseband (which does not have direct action on the bit) and you must use a snaffle bit (or double if competing at a high enough level.)

As for how a judge distinguishes between one set up and the next, I'd say they don't.. provided both are within the rules, it's irrelevant. There are no extra marks available for doing the test with a noseband so loose it's flapping in the wind, and a rubber snaffle, or whatever. There are marks to be gained by training your horse to go well in the permitted tack, whatever combination of that you select.

It's easy to see if a horse is resisting the contact even if it's mouth is jammed shut by the noseband, I think we have to give judges credit where it is due It's not just the mouth opening that will give it away, there might be teeth grinding, a neck set against the hand, a stiff back, hindlegs trailing, tail swishing to name a few signs.

 

[Taliesan]

Well, JMHO, but seeing the way the FEI and then BD adopt different bits etc into the permitted tack, I'd say the variety allowed is to give riders an opportunity to select the best combination for their horse *within limits*. The limits being you must use a noseband (which does not have direct action on the bit) and you must use a snaffle bit (or double if competing at a high enough level.)

As for how a judge distinguishes between one set up and the next, I'd say they don't.. provided both are within the rules, it's irrelevant. There are no extra marks available for doing the test with a noseband so loose it's flapping in the wind, and a rubber snaffle, or whatever. There are marks to be gained by training your horse to go well in the permitted tack, whatever combination of that you select.

It's easy to see if a horse is resisting the contact even if it's mouth is jammed shut by the noseband, I think we have to give judges credit where it is due It's not just the mouth opening that will give it away, there might be teeth grinding, a neck set against the hand, a stiff back, hindlegs trailing, tail swishing to name a few signs.

Could this same argument not be used for the permission of bitless bridles then? For some riders and horses a bit (or noseband, as some horses do dislike them) is not the best combination. Just because that current combination isn't in the rules at the moment doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included and the allowable limits reconsidered. What is there to lose by allowing bitless bridles or no nosebands?

A noseband can have a direct affect on the bit in my view. If it is lose, then fine, there are no problems. However, if the noseband is overtightened then the action of the bit can be made stronger through the horse being unable to open its mouth and get away from its effects.

You can see a horse resisting the contact in whatever setup it is in, be this in a bitted bridle with a noseband, without one or a bitless setup. The signs of a horse working correctly through its back and into the contact is the same regardless of what equipment the horse is in - in my opinion at least. (Just like the signs of an unhappy horse are the same!)

 

[milliepops]

well I'm not going to repeat everything I've already typed today, lol
But I do think, as described upthread, there is a fundamental difference in training a horse to accept the contact via cues to the bit (which is specified as a requirement in our current sport we call dressage) and training a horse to do its flatwork which may include dressage style movements without a bit.
Obviously the FEI and BD also think there's a fundamental difference otherwise we would have bitless dressage shows at affiliated levels.

Re the noseband directly affecting the bit. I meant you can't use a kineton (which pulls on the bit) or a worcester noseband (which pulls on the bit) etc. If the noseband is overtightened I don't consider that to give the rider a true advantage- the tension created will show elsewhere IMO and I think the bods at the top of the sport recognise that... it's trickling down.