Why do you need a noseband for dressage?

Surely there is no "contact" as such in a bitless bridle? Or certainly of a very different quality to that sought in a bit? Why would you not compete Hors de Concours if you want to prove your point?

FWIW I think there should be only one standard bit and noseband combination allowed, for the purposes of a level playing field. Retrospectively adding all sorts of weird and wonderfull new bit types is not the way forward.
 
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Cortez said:
Surely there is no "contact" as such in a bitless bridle? Or certainly of a very different quality to that sought in a bit? Why would you not compete Hors de Concours if you want to prove your point?
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There is a contact, I can assure you! I can feel my horse reaching for the contact and I can feel his lightness when he works properly. Likewise I can feel when he is leaning and not using his body as he should. To me I feel very little difference between the contact in a bitted and bitless bridle. Likewise the type of contact alters from bridle to bridle, as it alters from bit to bit. Some horses like certain types of contact and dislike others.

I certainly will be competing Hors de Concours when I can. Currently I have no transport so am somewhat stuck but I will be partaking in online classes throughout the winter with the aim to going out to a local venue in the summer.
 
Taliesan said:
I certainly will be competing Hors de Concours when I can. Currently I have no transport so am somewhat stuck but I will be partaking in online classes throughout the winter with the aim to going out to a local venue in the summer.
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Would be interested in how you get on.
 
Cortez said:
FWIW I think there should be only one standard bit and noseband combination allowed, for the purposes of a level playing field. Retrospectively adding all sorts of weird and wonderfull new bit types is not the way forward.
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I'm not sure I'd like a one size fits all with bits as horses mouths do vary in size and shape quite a bit, not just their width if you see what I mean.

My competition horse has very little room in her mouth and her overall mouth conformation means that it's taken a little while to find something she finds comfortable (thin Myler, so double joint with some tongue relief).

I can see your view though, as a lot of problems we've had as she was very contact/bit shy have been eradicated through correct schooling, but having the option to find the best bit for her has made the process much easier!

With you on nosebands though.
 
I have a memorable dressage score on my record-33%. I'm sure if that was FEI scored id have been thrilled but sadly this was an unaff Novice test. The test was pretty abominable but I didn't get collective marks because he was wearing no noseband. This was due to stitches in his chin (vet happy for him to be ridden but only without a noseband). Had I got a noseband to hand id have stuck it on for the 4 minutes we were in the arena but he has one of those bridles where the noseband attaches each side and the owner had taken it home.
So yes, loose cavesson all the way just to stick with the rules.
 
chaps89 said:
I have a memorable dressage score on my record-33%. I'm sure if that was FEI scored id have been thrilled but sadly this was an unaff Novice test. The test was pretty abominable but I didn't get collective marks because he was wearing no noseband. This was due to stitches in his chin (vet happy for him to be ridden but only without a noseband). Had I got a noseband to hand id have stuck it on for the 4 minutes we were in the arena but he has one of those bridles where the noseband attaches each side and the owner had taken it home.
So yes, loose cavesson all the way just to stick with the rules.
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Then you should have been eliminated.
 
We spoke to the venue and the judge beforehand. As we were already entered on a HC basis they were happy for me to still compete (not that with our score we were going to trouble anyone anyway, even if noseband had been on!)
 
I hadn't appreciated that I could go out HC without noseband. May be the way to go while I experiment for a suitable option. I'm at the stage of just getting her used to going out so happy to be HC.

I'm not sure that just one bit for all would be fair as that would be like saying all runners all have to wear the same shoe in a race. Size and fit have to be right, we at least owe our horses that much. Also it would stop the current research and development for new better fitting kit.
 
Good thread! Milliepops has said everything I would want to say. But I would just like to remind AlexHyde that within BD you can compete in all the FEI tests upto and including Grand Prix in a snaffle, its only if you want to compete in a CDI (Inernationally) that the double becomes compulsory for the FEI tests. Also, at various tack checks I've had done, Areas, Regionals, Winters my nosebands have been checked and commented favourably on their lack of tightness, so yes, nosebands are checked as well as bits. I would also hate to see bit use standardised as horses have such a variety of different mouth conformations, its only logical that we should be allowed to use the bit most comfortable for the individual horse.
 
milliepops said:
The tack rules are pretty basic really, the requirement is simply for an english style bridle and traditionally an english bridle includes a noseband of some kind. You can choose to just have a normal cavesson and fasten it loosely, plenty of us do :) Apart from saving on the tack cleaning, I don't see why anyone would object to using one like that.

I guess it's about standardisation - same as you have to have a bit of some kind, and you have to have a conventional english style saddle, not a western one etc.
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I agree... but I also read recently you can now choose not to have a throatlash on your bridle! I know that doesn't do anything, but it does fundamentally change the look of the bridle (and was being advocated as a thing to do to help the visual 'line' of the neck/jaw) away from the traditional standard.
 
Nugget La Poneh said:
I have my tin hat at the ready, as I think my opinion might not sit with others :D

The majority of bitless options work on exerting a tightening pressure around the nose, and indirectly the poll which I think is then seen as an unfair advantage almost - rightly or wrongly.

I don't think it is old-fashioned. Having limited tack options makes it more of a constant when faced with many combinations of horse and rider in the same class.

I guess maybe there should be classes for people that can ride a horse correctly with no bridle at all - natural carriage and all that.
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I don't this a bitless bridle would be an unfair advantage, yes it works differently but you could say those that over-tighten their nosebands and use a flash would have an advantage over those who choose to use a loosely fitted cavesson. I think it is old fashioned because far more research has gone into whats comfortable these days with new ways of thinking and new tack etc. I think it should be totally up to the individual if they want to ride with no bit, no noseband etc. I don't ride bitless by the way, always ride in a dressage-legal bit though and did ride with a cavesson for a long time until now using a Micklem (which does come with a drop, couldnt use it without it so not by choice as such - I just liked the design of it not sitting on pressure points for a sensitive horse).

At the end of the day it should be about how the horse is working so surely it shouldnt matter whats in the horses mouth (bar severe bits obviously) or round its nose.
 
SpringArising said:
Doesn't it just.
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Agree.

Although our 'boy' needs a nose band to finish his face if that makes sense. Purely cosmetic - it's a fat, chunky cavesson crank version. But loose and we don't utilise the 'crank'. Never had problems with an open mouth/sign of discomfort (...plenty of other problems lol...! )
 
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Maybe in this day and age, they (BD) could change the rules regarding nosebands and bits, allowing them, would be interesting to watch riders and their horses without, prob doing a better job than those with, and proving it can be done, though I accept that not all horses would necessarily take to no bit...
 
Micky said:
Maybe in this day and age, they (BD) could change the rules regarding nosebands and bits, allowing them, would be interesting to watch riders and their horses without, prob doing a better job than those with, and proving it can be done, though I accept that not all horses would necessarily take to no bit...
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The point is that anything which is a competition has to present a level playing field, especially something as subjective as dressage. The answer is to have separate classes for people who prefer to ride their horses in non-conventional tack, or to go Hors de Concours.
 
I think non-mechanical bitless bridles should be allowed for dressage.

This kind of summarises my feelings on the issue -

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I'm not a bunny hugger but I can see why people would rather not use a hunk of metal in their horse's mouth, especially if they're still learning to keep their hands still themselves - so I think the option of bitless should be there, even if just at the lower levels. Even if you have to go HC! You can still be judged on straightness, accuracy and balance. Non mechanical bitless bridles are fairly harmless, moreso than snaffle bridles, and if it would encourage people to do dressage, why not? If horses are less connected etc as a result, so what! How many are truly through at <elem? I know mine isn't most of the time and he has a bit :p

I would certainly give it a bash, I think it would be interesting!
 
Pigeon said:
I'm not a bunny hugger but I can see why people would rather not use a hunk of metal in their horse's mouth, especially if they're still learning to keep their hands still themselves - so I think the option of bitless should be there, even if just at the lower levels. Even if you have to go HC! You can still be judged on straightness, accuracy and balance. Non mechanical bitless bridles are fairly harmless, moreso than snaffle bridles, and if it would encourage people to do dressage, why not? If horses are less connected etc as a result, so what! How many are truly through at <elem? I know mine isn't most of the time and he has a bit :p

I would certainly give it a bash, I think it would be interesting!
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I know where you're coming from, but I do think this is something that is best pursued away from affiliated competition, which is after all what BD/FEI and their rules are for.

Taking your first point, if someone is too novice to be able to use a snaffle bit in a horse's mouth while keeping the contact reasonably still,they are out of place in the competitive dressage arena.
Saying most horses aren't through enough at the lower levels isn't a reason to change the goalposts... standards are supposed to be improving so making it 'easier' by saying connection etc no longer matters because we're bitless now seems like a bit of an odd thing to do.

As Cortez and others have said, it's something that belongs outside competitive dressage as the majority would recognise it. Some groups are organising their own shows which can be done bitless/bareback etc so why not try and support them, if posters are so keen on the idea?
 
I guess the point I was trying to make is that people are unlikely to be competitive in a bitless setup in dressage = their participation won't be game changing to the sport = why not just allow them, even on an HC basis? And if they do start scoring above bitted combinations, then perhaps re-assess if bits are the only tool that allows a horse to work in a healthy way.

I'm not necessarily advocating this for BD (though I don't think it would be detrimental to the sport if they did implement it) but most, if not all, unaffiliated venues run under BD rules, so to have a clause allowing bitless riders to enter HC might be something for them to consider.
 
Cortez said:
Dunno; I compete in Ireland and have entered HC in a baroque saddle & curb bridle at Elementary/Medium (and "won" the classes on the score :-)
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Just checked and you need to use 'legal' tack at anything run under BD rules, even if you go HC. I wonder if the more casual unaff venues would make an exception if you wrote in advance, but I guess that would be up to them.

I wish I could have seen that! Bet it was a beautiful picture!
 
I like the idea of trying a side pull bit less bridle et al, (I have tried a hackamore in the past with no qualms - it's not for the faint hearted or heavy handed either). (I have been known to have a jump in the headcollar too!).

But I do wish that you could buy bitless type things in a quality, traditional leather type "look". Sorry I just hate all the garish colours etc. Maybe it's targeted at the endurance market wher folk might want a green and purple fleck through the rope part. I want traditional! Sorry if that's boring, but I prefer that look more.

Sorry that's nothing to do with the actual OP thread!!
 
GemG you can buy normal leather sidepulls, I have one, I just use the rope one more as I can shove it in the washing machine!

I did an experiment today (not intentionally but it ended up as one). I let my sister ride my pony for the first time since he's been back up and running post injury. She rides very similarly to me so expected him to go very similarly to how he does with me. He did to a certain extent in that he walked, trotted and cantered when asked, tried to go in a 'pretty' frame and showed the same amount of muscular resistance as in the above photos, which I expected as he isn't strong yet) but oh boy could you see the extra resistance and lack of harmony in his expression! His nostrils were pulled back and he was working his mouth as if someone had too strong a contact on a bit. He was very active in his mouth, chomping and with his teeth showing. (My sister was doing nothing awful, just trying to get used to him). But it showed me very clearly that it's very easy for the horse to feel fine changes in contact etc and show either acceptance or resistance even when bitless, it certainly isn't a blunt instrument when the horse is schooled to it and it doesn't disguise resistance to flaws in riding.

I hopped back on afterwards to see if he was just in a funny mood but no, instantly his mouth closed, his jaw softened and his nostrils relaxed. I found it really interesting as I hadn't expected to see such a strong reaction when ridden bitless.
 
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