Why does a horse need shoes?

[Goldenstar]

It's not good is it?

I blame the Worshipful Company of Farriers. If they had grasped the nettle when the US barefoot movement first hit this country and changed their syllabus so that apprentices actually get to see hardworking barefoot horses and learn how to manage them, then the trimming industry would never have got off the ground.

It's not too late. If they did it now, the trimming industry would atrophy really quickly and horse owners would know where to turn to for hoof care for their horses.

I agree with this they missed the boat but the genie is out of the bottle now.

 

[cptrayes]

I agree with those that have posted that you are made to feel like a bad owner if your horse is unable to go barefoot

Nobody intends to make anyone feel like a bad owner. The problem is that one of the main reasons that horses cannot cope barefoot is that they have a very low grade laminitis. The solution to that is usually to restrict grass intake and some owners either cannot or will not do that. They will mask the gut problems that the horse has, which is showing in its feet, by shoeing. The gut problem is not resolved. The foot symptoms are.

If those owners then feel guilty, this is not the fault of the people giving the advice.

Some of the advice is also hair-raisingly inaccurate This puts people off.

Amaranta I would correct any inaccurate advice I saw and I cannot remember any of any significance recently, hair raising or not. Can you point out some that you felt was inaccurate so that we can correct it?

 

[amandap]

I must be exceptionally lucky, I moved to a completely different area (75 miles away) - made absolutely no difference, horses still shiny, healthy happy athletes

Old place was on clay (horrible) new place is on peat (lovely)

I'm on peat too. Perhaps I'm a bad owner? Perhaps I'm noticing more?

 

[Amaranta]

I'm on peat too. Perhaps I'm a bad owner? Perhaps I'm noticing more?

Noticing more what?

 

[amandap]

Regulation in itself wont help imo unless it gets better and more real teeth. There are still bad, regulated, farriers about.

 

[Amaranta]

Nobody intends to make anyone feel like a bad owner. The problem is that one of the main reasons that horses cannot cope barefoot is that they have a very low grade laminitis. The solution to that is usually to restrict grass intake and some owners either cannot or will not do that. They will mask the gut problems that the horse has, which is showing in its feet, by shoeing. The gut problem is not resolved. The foot symptoms are.

If those owners then feel guilty, this is not the fault of the people giving the advice.





Amaranta I would correct any inaccurate advice I saw and I cannot remember any of any significance recently, hair raising or not. Can you point out some that you felt was inaccurate so that we can correct it?

Not going to trawl through posts, but one which sticks in my mind is that genetics do not have an impact on whether a horse can wear shoes or not. This is just not true.

I for instance have nails that split, my mother had nails that split, diet makes absolutely no difference.

 

[amandap]

Noticing more what?

Their hooves and responses to grass, hays etc. I just seem to see more as I've (hopefully) learned more. For example, connecting a change in demenour to new hay supply in my laminitic pony. Possible significance of sloppy dropping on grass, new hay etc. etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

Regulation in itself wont help imo unless it gets better and more real teeth. There are still bad, regulated, farriers about.

I totally aggree the farrier regulation acts mainly to protect the farriers buisness not the horses welfare or else something would be done by the truly terrible shoes I see at every show I go to.

 

[cptrayes]

Not going to trawl through posts, but one which sticks in my mind is that genetics do not have an impact on whether a horse can wear shoes or not. This is just not true.

I for instance have nails that split, my mother had nails that split, diet makes absolutely no difference.

And that post was countered at the time by me, pointing out that a Connemara pony gene has been identified that causes hoof wall separation.

I think the subsequent argument said, which I agree with, that genetics make it much harder for some horses than others, but that it is only rarely a reason why a horse cannot go barefoot at all.

Next ?

 

[rhino]

Regulation in itself wont help imo unless it gets better and more real teeth. There are still bad, regulated, farriers about.

And it will remain the case unless people report bad farriery Despite all the 'horror' stories we are fed on a daily basis on here I don't recall many, if any, posters who have actually used the FRC complaints procedure

Regulation isn't some sort of magic thing that happens of its own accord

 

[Amaranta]

I'm on peat too. Perhaps I'm a bad owner? Perhaps I'm noticing more?

In the absence of a reply to my question, I must assume that you infer that you notice when your horses are off colour/lame and that ergo I don't, this is exactly what is meant when people say that barefoot trimmers make them feel as though they are bad owners.

Believe me, I know when to spot when my horses are not right, can you spot a 1/10th lame horse or when a foal is 'not quite right'?

 

[cptrayes]

I totally aggree the farrier regulation acts mainly to protect the farriers buisness not the horses welfare or else something would be done by the truly terrible shoes I see at every show I go to.

You remind me of the farrier Moorman who posts on here. He complained to the WCF that shoeing competitions are held where one farrier shoes one foot and another shoes another foot on the same horse. And that one foot can win the competition and the other come last.

In which case the WCF have created a competition which results in an unbalanced horse, by definition, and that these competitions should be stopped for the welfare of the horse.

The response of the WCF?

To politely request (i.e demand) that Moorman does not train any more apprentices.

Say it all, doesn't it?

 

[amandap]

And it will remain the case unless people report bad farriery Despite all the 'horror' stories we are fed on a daily basis on here I don't recall many, if any, posters who have actually used the FRC complaints procedure

Regulation isn't some sort of magic thing that happens of its own accord

Very, very good point.

I don't think genetics plays the part that many believe though. It seems to be used as a reason for just accepting horses have bad feet when many could be vastly improved. That's my beef with the genetics argument.

 

[Amaranta]

Not going to trawl through posts, but one which sticks in my mind is that genetics do not have an impact on whether a horse can wear shoes or not. This is just not true.

I for instance have nails that split, my mother had nails that split, diet makes absolutely no difference.

Yes you did correct it, but the person who originally posted it stated it as fact and argued with people who, quite rightly, tried to point out that she was wrong.

 

[Amaranta]

Very, very good point.

I don't think genetics plays the part that many believe though. It seems to be used as a reason for just accepting horses have bad feet when many could be vastly improved. That's my beef with the genetics argument.

Tell that to the Connemaras

 

[amandap]

In the absence of a reply to my question, I must assume that you infer that you notice when your horses are off colour/lame and that ergo I don't, this is exactly what is meant when people say that barefoot trimmers make them feel as though they are bad owners.

Believe me, I know when to spot when my horses are not right, can you spot a 1/10th lame horse or when a foal is 'not quite right'?

I did reply. This is a copy of my post which I can see sometimes but not others. My internet keeps going down.

"Their hooves and responses to grass, hays etc. I just seem to see more as I've (hopefully) learned more. For example, connecting a change in demenour to new hay supply in my laminitic pony. Possible significance of sloppy dropping on grass, new hay etc. etc."

 

[amandap]

Tell that to the Connemaras

You are just being provocative now.

 

[rhino]

Tell that to the Connemaras

Or a number of the warmbloods, 17.2hh with pony sized feet.. They were bred bigger and bigger in height in the last couple of decades, and in my opinion, and that of a number of people vastly more experienced than me, one of the inevitable things to 'give' is the ability of the hoof to adequately support the horse... Increased pressure (weight) through the same area (hoof size) is always going to have an effect.

You really can't 'outsmart' genetics with a short term adaption

 

[cptrayes]

Yes you did correct it, but the person who originally posted it stated it as fact and argued with people who, quite rightly, tried to point out that she was wrong.

I'm afraid I don't see the problem as long as it got corrected. This is an open forum and people will post things that aren't right. It's the penalty of being able to help people, and it's better to have all the good stuff we have, and correct the wrong when it occurs, than for none of it to be discussed, which is the only viable alternative.

I'm still struggling to find anything "hair-raisingly" inaccurate that barefooters have said that would cause any damage to a horse or owner

 

[amandap]

Of course genetics play a part but they are not the only or largest (IMO) reason horses have bad hooves.

It was me who countered the genetics being THE cause of all hoof problems argument.

 

[rhino]

Of course genetics play a part but they are not the only or largest (IMO) reason horses have bad hooves.

I don't think anyone has said they are I have however been shot down for merely suggesting the possibility on here before so it is nice to see some people are actually able to adjust their opinions (not aimed at you)

 

[Amaranta]

I did reply. This is a copy of my post which I can see sometimes but not others. My internet keeps going down.

"Their hooves and responses to grass, hays etc. I just seem to see more as I've (hopefully) learned more. For example, connecting a change in demenour to new hay supply in my laminitic pony. Possible significance of sloppy dropping on grass, new hay etc. etc."

Sorry but that is basic common sense to me, every horse owner/keeper should be able to spot those things. It is not rocket science.

 

[Goldenstar]

You remind me of the farrier Moorman who posts on here. He complained to the WCF that shoeing competitions are held where one farrier shoes one foot and another shoes another foot on the same horse. And that one foot can win the competition and the other come last.

In which case the WCF have created a competition which results in an unbalanced horse, by definition, and that these competitions should be stopped for the welfare of the horse.

The response of the WCF?

To politely request (i.e demand) that Moorman does not train any more apprentices.

Say it all, doesn't it?

if all farriers where like Moorman we would not be having these debates barefoot is growing out of need some people are seeing they need to do something different and others like me see and read about it and have a go and find that you can reevaluate what you do and think about foot care.

 

[Tiffany]

Bickerchick pleased your horse is doing well nut just wondering what Rockley can do that you can't at home. Presume he will come home so how will you manage?

 

[indie999]

Yawn Yawn

with or without shoes most horses dont have problems and the owners are happy. If you or horse are not happy then do something about it

Dont get at others who dont agree with your views and vice versa.

I would rather put my efforts into neglected horses etc that are RSPCA cases etc than big debate on who is right or wrong on this blooming barefoot or shoeing debate.

 

[Amaranta]

I'm afraid I don't see the problem as long as it got corrected. This is an open forum and people will post things that aren't right. It's the penalty of being able to help people, and it's better to have all the good stuff we have, and correct the wrong when it occurs, than for none of it to be discussed, which is the only viable alternative.

I'm still struggling to find anything "hair-raisingly" inaccurate that barefooters have said that would cause any damage to a horse or owner

The point is that this particular poster absolutely refused to believe those non barefoot posters and only clammed up when another barefooter (yourself) corrected her. This is seems to be endemic on here.

 

[cptrayes]

Or a number of the warmbloods, 17.2hh with pony sized feet.. They were bred bigger and bigger in height in the last couple of decades, and in my opinion, and that of a number of people vastly more experienced than me, one of the inevitable things to 'give' is the ability of the hoof to adequately support the horse... Increased pressure (weight) through the same area (hoof size) is always going to have an effect.

I agree with this example if you shoe. The shod horse is standing on foot bones hung from his laminae inside his hoof capsule.

But the unshod horse is standing on his leg bones, on his foot bones, on his digital cushion, on his frog, on the floor. He is not suspended in his hoof capsule - all that is doing is stabilising and protecting his foot bones from outside knocks.

I have a 17hh warmblood with tiny feet. I don't have any fears that his feet will fail him, they are like little rocks. I like small feet, they are really tough and they don't flare like big ones.

 

[cptrayes]

The point is that this particular poster absolutely refused to believe those non barefoot posters and only clammed up when another barefooter (yourself) corrected her. This is seems to be endemic on here.

It happens on all subjects in open forums. It's just the penalty for freedom of information.

 

[amandap]

Sorry but that is basic common sense to me, every horse owner/keeper should be able to spot those things. It is not rocket science.

Did I say it was rocket science? I am willing to admit that I see more now than I did a few years ago, I wasn't born all knowing. I obviously am a slow learner in the basics. Perhaps I'll learn shoes are the best thing ever one day then I wont have to think about forage sensitivities and learn to spot them earlier.

 

[orionstar]

Or a number of the warmbloods, 17.2hh with pony sized feet.. They were bred bigger and bigger in height in the last couple of decades, and in my opinion, and that of a number of people vastly more experienced than me, one of the inevitable things to 'give' is the ability of the hoof to adequately support the horse... Increased pressure (weight) through the same area (hoof size) is always going to have an effect.

You really can't 'outsmart' genetics with a short term adaption

I love you Rhino , my 17.3hh (we measured her at the weekend) WB has smaller feet than my 15.2hh had and she can not support herself without shoes and is instantly footy when you remove them. Coupled with a very active lifestyle in the field, when she has them off for any length of time e.g four weeks the hoof wall wears down to nothing despite having a balanced diet. She has been like this since I bought her as a poor 3 year old off a windswept moor in Lancashire. Xrays taken at intervals have also shown very thin soles that have not improved with diet changes, and I have changed my farrier, as the vets advice and xrays had no affect on the one I have used for years. My vet and farrier and myself are now working to correct the negative angle created when she had her shoes off whilst undergoing surgery, and fingers crossed it is starting to make an improvement. I wouldnt put my horse through not having shoes on again.