Why don't people let their horses drop off in winter?

Ah, for me, ad lib means as much as they ant to eat. Those that are restricted get a weighed amount in trickle nets so they are not stood without forage. But people saying they feed ad lib forage and allow the horse to drop weight??? How?
 
Wagtail said:
I don't believe all the people saying they feed ad lib haylage and the horses drop weight. IME if I feed ad lib haylage, they get fat! Except for the really poor doers who maintain weight.
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Depends on the horse Wagtail. I've been feeding a good doer in only light work ad lib haylage and he has lost weight.
 
NellRosk said:
I'm completely the opposite, got 2 fatties so I'm perfectly happy to let them lose a bit over winter.
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I wouldn't let mine become "fatties", so they never have any weight they need to lose. I like to try and keep mine slim all year round. I don't think its sensible to let horses gain much weight in the summer as the grazing horses are on is not as it would be in the wild, therefore you're risking things like laminitis.
 
In my case they are eating constantly because they are grazing they probably expend far more energy finding the grass than they get from it so they lose weight they are not hungry because they are grazing are fed and have a small section of hay. They lose weight because the nutritional value of winter grass is pretty much zero so they have the roughage but not the calories
The feed provides the minimum level of food required for survival so protein vitamins and minerals and some forage the hay adds a bit more forage to keep the gut functioning and the grass keeps them occupied and hay doing what horses do, In summer they dont get hay but the nutritional value of the grass rises so they dont need the hay
The ponies then are unrestricted and can gain weight over the summer they are never hungry never muzzled and never unhappy in small plots they have access year round to at least two acres of short grass in summer 4 acres in winter They dont have insulin resistance cushings ems or any of the other metabolic disorders so common now
As for humans it is well lknown that if a type 2 diabetic (insulin resistant equivalent) goes on a low calorie diet for several days a week they can reduce the need for drugs and in some cases eliminate the need at all so effectively are cured. The rise in type 2 in younger and younger people is because of the poor diet of young people now processed food full of fat and sugar is ruining our young peoples health and yes if you look at human history the rise in type 2 has come with a freeer and more stable weight gain, over history when humans were feast and famine they didnt suffer from type 2 diabetes
 
twiggy2 said:
There is a point it is thought that horses produce more insulin as the summer and spring flush of grass comes through and their insulin levels are very low during winter so mimicking the natural levels of sugar and feed during the year and allowing the horses weight to fluctuate as it would in the wild would reduce the cases of insulin related laminitis and all linked conditions. The belief is that keeping horses weight consistent year round is creating lots and lots of health issues for horses.
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If the sugar levels in the grass are low (ie; winter) the amount of insulin released by the pancreas will be less. Spring grass is high in sugar and in a healthy horse, when blood sugar levels rise, more insulin is released.
Horses don't produce less insulin because its winter, they produce it in response to blood sugar level.

What are the health issues caused by keeping weight consistent ?

It seems a lazy way to deliberately let horses to drop weight over winter so they can get fat in spring. Why not exercise instead and keep the horse fit, weight appropriate and with a metabolism that is working efficiently rather than sluggishly.
 
I don't think any one has said there are health issues with keeping wieght constant unless you are dealing with extremly fit horses that have heavy work loads they definatly benefit from being let down and when you let them down they will gain wieght .
 
I don't intend to necessarily use winter to drop weight, and spring to put weight on, but will use it if needed...

If a couple of extra kgs have snuck on during spring when there is a flush of grass, I'd rather use the grass tailing off in quality over the summer and autumn to drop a bit of weight than restricting turnout. I try to avoid any big changes in weight and condition to maintain fitness and saddle fit throughout the year...but I have a cob on livery so have to use what I can!
 
Wagtail said:
Ah, for me, ad lib means as much as they ant to eat. Those that are restricted get a weighed amount in trickle nets so they are not stood without forage. But people saying they feed ad lib forage and allow the horse to drop weight??? How?
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You work them .
 
I try to keep a constant weight but he had 6 months out of work from May. He lives out so got a little grass belly and lost all topline. Now back in work and the grass belly is going. However I won't up his feed until he needs it. Just a handful to get his vits and supplements in and he is getting hay. I'm hoping next spring / summer I can keep him lean by exercise.
 
Wagtail said:
Ah, for me, ad lib means as much as they ant to eat. Those that are restricted get a weighed amount in trickle nets so they are not stood without forage. But people saying they feed ad lib forage and allow the horse to drop weight??? How?
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That's what adlib means to me too. No horse at my farm stands without free unrestricted access to hay. I own a hay farm so am able to keep the best hay for the horses I want to keep consistent weight, and for those who I know would be fat in the summer if I didn't allow them to drop in the winter, they are fed lower quality, slightly rougher hay. They drop weight.
 
khalswitz said:
This. If you want to get technical, HUMANS are designed to lose and gain weight - get fat in summer and lean over winter. However fluctuating weight is something we are advised against by our doctors - maintaining a healthy weight is advised.

There are people who do the 5:2 diet to mimic our 'natural' metabolism, however long term weight fluctuations between overweight and underweight aren't recommended. I would argue the same of horses.
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I would want neither overweight or underweight, weight can fluctuate without being either.
more and more evidence is indicating allow horse to be leaner at times of the year is beneficial to their long term health
 
I don't mind mine dropping in winter in order to avoid him getting too much on the plump side come spring. That's not to say he is starved but although he gets adlib access to hay in the field and a reasonable amount of haylage in small holed nets overnight (was on hay, which I preferred cos it took him longer to eat and had less calories but because the hay we get, although nice stuff, is quite dry and dusty it was setting my allergies off to the point I was having to wear a mask and still couldn't really breathe that well) he only gets hard feed once a day in the form of fastfibre and a light balancer for vits and mins. If he started to look poor on this then I'd prob up his night haylage ration and start giving him two feeds a day rather than one. Thus far haven't seen a need to do this (if anything he's still got a little more on him than I'd like for the time of year)
 
Goldenstar said:
I don't think any one has said there are health issues with keeping wieght constant unless you are dealing with extremly fit horses that have heavy work loads they definatly benefit from being let down and when you let them down they will gain wieght .
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Yep, 'fraid so.

twiggy2 said:
There is a point it is thought that horses produce more insulin as the summer and spring flush of grass comes through and their insulin levels are very low during winter so mimicking the natural levels of sugar and feed during the year and allowing the horses weight to fluctuate as it would in the wild would reduce the cases of insulin related laminitis and all linked conditions. The belief is that keeping horses weight consistent year round is creating lots and lots of health issues for horses.
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Letting a horse drop weight over winter so it can gorge in spring is not a good management strategy. Where did you get this notion that maintaining a constant weight is creating lots and lots of health issues ?
 
twiggy2 said:
I would want neither overweight or underweight, weight can fluctuate without being either.
more and more evidence is indicating allow horse to be leaner at times of the year is beneficial to their long term health
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I can see exactly why this could well be true Twiggy. but I think it might help if you can point us to some of the evidence? I would be very interested to read it. I was fascinated with Michael Moseley's documentary on how healthy it is for humans to fast for two days a week.
 
Mr P certainly isn't starved over winter to loose weight (he has ad-lib hay when stabled overnight, two small feeds a day for his supplements and is rugged throughout the worst of the winter weather) but it doesn't alarm me if he drops a couple of kg's as I know he'll put it back in the Spring/Summer.

He's not allowed to 'gorge' but being a ridiculously good doer he will put vitamin over the Spring & Summer (despite being muzzled when needed, given soaked and rinsed adlib hay over night, decrease to an even smaller feed a day & an increased workload to help 'fight the flab').

He's neither obese in the Summer or a hat rack over the winter - but he does, with all the will in the world, fluctuate a little with the seasons.

My vet, my barefoot trimmer (who is very much an ambassador for preventing laminitis) & a nutritionalist have all seen him over summer and winter & are happy with the change of a few kg's with his weight.
 
As a native pony owner, I'm quite amused by the idea that feeding ad-lib haylege is some kind of baseline of acceptable. If mine had as much hay as they were prepared to eat they'd look like the stay-puft marshmallow man!
Having to scour the field foraging in winter does them no harm at all.

But then, a couple of them would get fat just looking at the lichen on the fence posts.
 
pennyturner said:
As a native pony owner, I'm quite amused by the idea that feeding ad-lib haylege is some kind of baseline of acceptable. If mine had as much hay as they were prepared to eat they'd look like the stay-puft marshmallow man!
Having to scour the field foraging in winter does them no harm at all.

But then, a couple of them would get fat just looking at the lichen on the fence posts.
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I agree, especially the one I got as a morbidly obese 14yo who is now 21 (not morbidly obese) and retired! I won't feed any of mine haylege,they get good stalky hay mixed with straw and they don't get it adlib. They are on Scottish hill grazing with only natural shelter and are a good weight-no rugs, no starving and no feeding stuff they simply don't require.
 
cptrayes said:
Are you sure? There appears to be very strong scientific evidence that eating only one 500 calorie meal on two days a week carries very significant health benefits for humans.
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It is different though for humans to fast two days a week, to horses becoming lean over a whole season and putting weight back on in the spring. The 5:2 diet keeps your metabolism working well without getting sluggish, and helps stop excessive calorie intake associated with modern diets - however, if I change my horse's feed so that on his two days off per week, he gets reduced calories, then it's a similar situation ( I do feed more on days of work, and cut down when not). It's not a weight change, it's short term changes to encourage an active metabolism.

However long term weight gain and weight loss is different - my friend had an eating disorder, and used to fluctuate weight over a few months from chubby to slim and back, not hugely skinny to obese, but still the doctor said this was the most worrying thing, as you put your body under a lot of stress doing this. Personally I would try not to let my horse 'drop off' as a cycle of weight loss and weight gain is not what I consider healthy or ideal management, particularly if they are working (like my doctor was always very concerned when I was losing weight for coxing, as weight loss whilst maintaining high levels of exercise have to be monitored).

And to whoever said about not going overweight o underweight, just dropping a few kilos, I would love to know how you have that much control. My horse, when he starts dropping he plummets like a hat rack, in order just to lose 'a few kilos' he needs feeding up! I think allowing horses to drop off is fine if they are natives, looking too good, and not in work, although not what I'd call ideal as personally I wouldn't like them too good off the summer, but I think in winter weight can drop off too quickly to avoid them looking on the skinny side of lean very quickly. Certainly my last four have been like that.
 
khalswitz said:
It is different though for humans to fast two days a week, to horses becoming lean over a whole season and putting weight back on in the spring. The 5:2 diet keeps your metabolism working well without getting sluggish, and helps stop excessive calorie intake associated with modern diets - however, if I change my horse's feed so that on his two days off per week, he gets reduced calories, then it's a similar situation ( I do feed more on days of work, and cut down when not). It's not a weight change, it's short term changes to encourage an active metabolism.

However long term weight gain and weight loss is different - my friend had an eating disorder, and used to fluctuate weight over a few months from chubby to slim and back, not hugely skinny to obese, but still the doctor said this was the most worrying thing, as you put your body under a lot of stress doing this. Personally I would try not to let my horse 'drop off' as a cycle of weight loss and weight gain is not what I consider healthy or ideal management, particularly if they are working (like my doctor was always very concerned when I was losing weight for coxing, as weight loss whilst maintaining high levels of exercise have to be monitored).

And to whoever said about not going overweight o underweight, just dropping a few kilos, I would love to know how you have that much control. My horse, when he starts dropping he plummets like a hat rack, in order just to lose 'a few kilos' he needs feeding up! I think allowing horses to drop off is fine if they are natives, looking too good, and not in work, although not what I'd call ideal as personally I wouldn't like them too good off the summer, but I think in winter weight can drop off too quickly to avoid them looking on the skinny side of lean very quickly. Certainly my last four have been like that.
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I am not saying horses are the same as humans.

I am saying that if something that goes completely against the three square meals a day rule that we were all brought up to believe works for human health, why would a natural winter weight loss not be as beneficial for horses??
 
If you have a horse that is prone to being overweight or developing laminitis it is seriously most important to allow it to drop weight in the winter.

I read a veterinary article some months ago that horses that are allowed to reduce weight in winter are less likely to have problems with laminitis. It's most definitely the way I control my Clydesdales weight - I allow her to get light by the end of winter. Since reading the article and carrying out the system I have had less weight problems with her than feeding her to maintain weight.

In general the majority of horse owners over feed their horses all the time. They DO NOT need masses of extra food. We used to compete our ponies successfully off grass. The modern trend of feeding anything and everything is seriously damaging the health of our horses. Serenity us currently ridden daily and not an extra morsel passes her lips but the grass in her paddock. She looks great, has heaps of energy and is fit.

I also save myself heaps by not being hoodwinked by all the feed companies to buy their feed.
 
All of mine drop off in the winter.

They are all native types and very good doers but my summer grazing is 'rough' grazing. Not only is it rough it's nearly vertical in places :) they do all put weight on though.

Even though they do all put on weight none have ever had lami and all are reasonably fit thanks to the location of the grazing - they have to work pretty hard and they are always full of energy and pinging around.

When they come in for winter I notice that (for the ridden ones) they lose the grass belly and tone up quite quickly, the semi retired broodmare and the ancient semi retired pony do get put on rations though as they don't do as much work.

They all come out of winter on the lean side but fairly fit, during summer they all look well - by that I mean bright, alert, gleaming coats and lots of energy - they spend a lot of time charging around the 30+ acres that they are turned out on and they play a lot.
 
cptrayes said:
I am not saying horses are the same as humans.

I am saying that if something that goes completely against the three square meals a day rule that we were all brought up to believe works for human health, why would a natural winter weight loss not be as beneficial for horses??
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I agree, question what you're taught - it's the only way things change. But the human three square meals thing originated back in the days when we ate lower calorie food and did more hard, physical work - so the way humans live, and what they eat, has changed, so the system no longer is the most efficient as we don't need the same energy levels, and we eat more than we need therefore encouraging reduced metabolic efficiency.

You can apply the same to horses - horses in the wild would gain weight and drop off, but they aren't in the wild now, so management systems should be different. IMO, anyway.
 
I'm sure there was an article in the BHS magazine a few months ago discussing the benefits of letting horses drop off a little, something to due with insulin I believe.

People are conned into spending loads of money on unneeded feed and supplements. These all claim to have scientific benefits, all researched by the feed companies of course...

You can get special feeds for lami's, fatties, fizzies, the vast majority of these horses would do best, turned out and fed on basic fodder, and a mineral lick. To be fair, in this country 24/7 turn out isn't always that easy to come by but is it doable.
 
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lastchancer said:
I'm sure there was an article in the BHS magazine a few months ago discussing the benefits of letting horses drop off a little, something to due with insulin I believe.

People are conned into spending loads of money on unneeded feed and supplements. These all claim to have scientific benefits, all researched by the feed companies of course...

You can get special feeds for lami's, fatties, fizzies, the vast majority of these horses would do best, turned out and fed on basic fodder, and a mineral lick. To be fair, in this country 24/7 turn out isn't always that easy to come by but is it doable.
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See, I have mine on 24/7/365 turnout, and whilst is is mentally better for him, and alleviates his EPSM, he loses more weight in winter out than when he used to be in. He gets ad lib haylage and two decent bucket feeds a day, but still loses weight, particularly in the late winter/early spring. The turnout, despite being rugged appropriately, does cause him to lose condition. I would still rather he was out, but it means I can't afford for him to start dropping weight, or he becomes a hat rack very quickly and struggles to put the weight back on. He had a month off last year at the end of winter because I couldn't justify riding him when he was losing weight!
 
I think a lot depends on what level you are letting your horses 'drop off' to, and how large they are getting in the summer. It is dangerous to let horses and ponies get fat, even if it is only for half a year, so I couldn't condone a regime where the animals were allowed to get obese in summer with the excuse they would drop off over the winter. However, if someone has a good doer and has managed their weight sensibly over summer so they were a condition score 3 in autumn (on a 1 to 5 scale) then I could understand letting them lose a bit so that they started spring at condition score 2.5, for example.
 
I try to maintain a balanced weight all year round especially as we also compete all year round. This summer I found that keeping her weight on was an issue as the quality of grazing this year was awful and she was being ridden almost every day, so she was given hard feed (sugar beet plus alfalfa mix) throughout the summer. This makes it easy for me to monitor her weight; what hole is my girth on? Going down a hole, reduce feed, going up a hole, increase feed.
 
khalswitz said:
I agree, question what you're taught - it's the only way things change. But the human three square meals thing originated back in the days when we ate lower calorie food and did more hard, physical work - so the way humans live, and what they eat, has changed, so the system no longer is the most efficient as we don't need the same energy levels, and we eat more than we need therefore encouraging reduced metabolic efficiency.

You can apply the same to horses - horses in the wild would gain weight and drop off, but they aren't in the wild now, so management systems should be different. IMO, anyway.
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I think you may not be familiar with the human research. The issue is not total calorie intake or expenditure. The surprise finding was that if humans have two days a week eating only one 500 calorie meal each of those days, there are significant health benefits no matter what they eat on the other days of the week.

I think it's entirely possible that significant weight loss might 'reset' the metabolism of horses in some way to make it safer for them to be on the fat side in summer. Fasting, of course, is not a good idea for a creature with such a long floppy gut.

I'm certainly happy for my guys to mimic nature and come into the spring grass flush on the lean side.
 
lastchancer said:
I'm sure there was an article in the BHS magazine a few months ago discussing the benefits of letting horses drop off a little, something to due with insulin I believe.

People are conned into spending loads of money on unneeded feed and supplements. These all claim to have scientific benefits, all researched by the feed companies of course...

You can get special feeds for lami's, fatties, fizzies, the vast majority of these horses would do best, turned out and fed on basic fodder, and a mineral lick. To be fair, in this country 24/7 turn out isn't always that easy to come by but is it doable.
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lastchancer - So glad that there is another person in the world that shares my belief! When I feed it's the b asics, Oats, Chaff and Sugarbeet, minerals they get via a multi mineral block.

I loathe strip grazing too - I see so many overweight horses on strip grazing that are unable to get out of a walk because the area they are on is so small. My Clydesdale asd the two welsh ponies live on a billiard table paddock. To get a mouthful of grass takes them ages as they have to nip off very short lengths and in the meantime they are constantly moving. Too much grass? Find a farmer with a few sheep and offer him some grazing - they can knock back the long grass really quickly.

I also find that strip grazing damages the grass far more than allowing the horse full access to the paddock - with strip grazing they are walking over the same patch so often that they pug it up really quickly and then weeds get stuck in.

Last year one of the liveries strip grazed her paddock - it's now a mass of weeds whereas the rest of the property is looking lovely.
 
I think it probably depends on the type of horse and what they're used for, my welsh D x is clipped in winter because of the amount of work he does and if he isnt well rugged and fed the right amount he loses condition and drops weight dramatically, but I know others who don't clip and their horses lose weight in winter (still do the same amount of exercise) but their weight loss isn't dramatic. I think it's just due to the way we have domesticated these animals, if my boy wasn't clipped and I allowed him to live like to wild dude he is then I know I wouldn't go through the issue of feeding and rugs every year, I'd love for him to go au natural but I also want to be able to use him for longer than 20 mins without him breaking into a sweat! (he's a fuzzy beast). :)
 
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