Why don't people let their horses drop off in winter?

[Mince Pie]

I think it really depends on the horse in question, for example my lad with all the restricted grazing/muzzling etc over the summer will still put weight on despite my best intentions. He's not grossly obese by the end of summer but could usually do with losing a few kgs, which he does over winter. However this is something I do very deliberately and very carefully.

At the time of this photo he was hunting fit and did a days hunting over very hilly country a week later with absolutely no problems at all.

This was taken in a different year, but in April.

He has ad lib hay which is soaked for his COPD however I use less rugs so he uses his excess fat to keep himself warm and he gets a token hard feed for his supps.

 

[khalswitz]

This is exactly what I avoid by allowing them to forage on the natural foggage (standing weeds and grass) in winter. They are moving around most of the time, covering the whole field, finding this and that. They're never stood under a hedge with their tail between their legs looking bored.

I only provide hay if there's snow, or I've really run out of natural forage - and even then I make sure there's no routine, and it's set out in many piles, and various places. I don't want them hanging around the gate expecting it if I can avoid it.

Horses get bored and cold 'standing around it 98% of the time'.

Unfortunately, when you have NO grass at this time of year, horses live out24/7 with 5 to a field, all work reasonably hard, and are all poor doers so need adlib, a hay bale in the field every five days or so is the easiest way to do it.

Even when I had natives, I used this method, and managed to keep then looking trim year round - but they did work reasonably hard.

 

[autumn7]

Quote Originally Posted by Spotsrock
"If u let weight fluctuate constantly do u have seasonal saddle changes to ensure good fit despite the different shape ur horse will be from one season to another?"

I have two saddles for mine - a summer one broader one and a winter narrower one for my old fashioned hunter type who changes shape dramatically with the seasons.

 

[pennyturner]

"We didn't see it then because it rarely developed - I rememer only a couple of Cushings ponies - both had been lamanitic at some time in their lives." Tnavas.

In the past horses were frequently worked to death by 12 (Omnibus horses in London typically lasted 3 or 4 years before they broke down). Not surprising we didn't see much Cushings!

Even more recently, experienced owners would rarely try to keep an aged pony alive after it started going downhill. They didn't have the treatments, and wouldn't have bothered if they have.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Unfortunately, when you have NO grass at this time of year, horses live out24/7 with 5 to a field, all work reasonably hard, and are all poor doers so need adlib, a hay bale in the field every five days or so is the easiest way to do it.

If yours are all poor doers, I doubt that OP was really suggesting that you should let them drop any weight in winter. Those of us who do manage our horses in that way, have to decide whether to take the easy way for the owner or the best way for the horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

I don't understand how this gets to be a moral argument about what people 'should' be doing. Surely the focus has to be on the result, not just the process? It's almost impossible to gauge what people mean by 'poor doer' (which now seems to come with a judgement attached, rather than just describing a naturally light horse) or 'medium work' so everyone has to assess their situation accordingly.

A natural seasonal fluctuation in weight of 5% ish seems to be 'normal' and, as we understand more, even desirable. Work, weather, feed value, health etc will affect the situation. It doesn't really sound that complicated!

 

[khalswitz]

If yours are all poor doers, I doubt that OP was really suggesting that you should let them drop any weight in winter. Those of us who do manage our horses in that way, have to decide whether to take the easy way for the owner or the best way for the horse.

Like I said, my current one and the others in his field (we keep poor doers together for ease of management) are all poor doers - and by poor doers I mean have a tendency to drop weight and struggle to maintain or put on weight in winter. However I have owned native type good doers previously, and whilst they got appropriate amounts of feed, I never had problems with them being fat in summer, and they didn't need to drop weight in winter, especially as they were in reasonable work.

 

[Murphy88]

by poor doers I mean have a tendency to drop weight and struggle to maintain or put on weight in winter.

To give a different angle, perhaps what you consider 'poor doers' , are actually horses doing what is natural - losing weight in winter. Allowing a horse to lose some weight isn't bad management, in fact I would say that feeding to prevent this loss is worse management in terms of maintaining the overall health of the horse.

Now obviously I'm not suggesting allowing horses to become 'poor' - although I probably have a different idea to many of what constitutes poor, as both a vet and a horse owner. I like to feel ribs very easily, and when my horse is fit I have no problem with seeing his ribs - unfortunately he lives off fresh air, I would much rather have to supplement hay this winter as opposed to facing going into next spring with him overweight. Unfortunately as horse owners we have lost sight of what is actually a desirable weight, as the vast majority of horses are at least a little overweight. Seeing a horse at a good weight is the exception rather than the rule in my job.

Really, those horses that naturally lose weight in winter should be easier to manage - feed to allow a small (5%) weight loss by the end of winter, and then allow spring and summer grazing/warmth to do the work of putting the weight back on.

 

[Lamb-Ski]

"To give a different angle, perhaps what you consider 'poor doers' , are actually horses doing what is natural - losing weight in winter. Allowing a horse to lose some weight isn't bad management, in fact I would say that feeding to prevent this loss is worse management in terms of maintaining the overall health of the horse". In the main I agree with this however it is my opinion that, come winter, many horses in this country have an enforced, drastic change in lifestyle ie: they are taken off the grass and stabled for all or much of the time (this can result in various stress inducing factors), they are often clipped (partly or fully) then rugged (a horse is more adapt at warming itself up than cooling itself down and this takes allot of energy out of the horse) the horse is then often fed more concentrate feeds than fibre and many mixed feeds on the market today are made up of stuff that horses are simply not designed to eat (this results in the horse expanding much more energy digesting food than utilizing it for warmth and nutrition) So, taking all that into consideration, for some people, with some horses they will be chucking bucket's of feed at the horse with little or no effect. I believe that if you know you have a poor doer then the horse needs to be prepared, way in advance, in fact soon after the summer solstice, as this is when the horse starts to prepare it's own body to winter. We may well have domesticated the horse but the fact remains that as care providers it should be our responsibility to provide what they do need rather than expecting them to conform to what we want.

 

[beccylovespurple]

I read in Horse and Rider last month that they should drop off at the end of the winter as it helps with insulin resistance. I'd love mine to drop a bit of weight but they maintain weight well even on just forage.

 

[Tnavas]

"We didn't see it then because it rarely developed - I rememer only a couple of Cushings ponies - both had been lamanitic at some time in their lives." Tnavas.

In the past horses were frequently worked to death by 12 (Omnibus horses in London typically lasted 3 or 4 years before they broke down). Not surprising we didn't see much Cushings!

Even more recently, experienced owners would rarely try to keep an aged pony alive after it started going downhill. They didn't have the treatments, and wouldn't have bothered if they have.

pennyturner - what rubbish - maybe 100 years ago that might have been the case and even then not many ended up that way.

I have friends who had their childhood ponies out in the paddock in retirement in their mid 20's.

Many of our excellent school ponies and horses both in the UK and NZ were well into their 20's and still in work with no problems.

We didn't see the problems because they rarely if ever developed - the people that owned horses and ponies either knew what they were doing or had them looked after by people who did.

Motherofchickens - we had warmbloods 50 years ago in the UK - we called them hunters! They were no different then than the current warmbloods crosses between Cold blood horses and hotbloods. EG Clydesdale x TB or Arab. The current Warmblood is more TB than it used to be.

I agree that more horses are over rugged and overfed than they used to be but I believe far more were stabled 24/7 than now.

 

[YasandCrystal]

My cob and native drop weight in winter, but then they carry a tad too much weight in the summer. They are never badly overweight, but I don't believe in muzzling or starvation paddocks for bigger horses who need to move about. There are some horses that like some humans are genuinely too good doers and short of actually starving them they will be on the larger side. My cob mare is always kept very fit in summer and my grazing is not rich, but she still always looks very well. I do think it is natural and I also believe that when you feed adlib forage you need to take care that your horse still moves about as they would naturally. I love the paddocks paradise concept and have implemented that myself previously.

 

[siennamum]

pennyturner - what rubbish - maybe 100 years ago that might have been the case and even then not many ended up that way.

I have friends who had their childhood ponies out in the paddock in retirement in their mid 20's.

Many of our excellent school ponies and horses both in the UK and NZ were well into their 20's and still in work with no problems.

We didn't see the problems because they rarely if ever developed - the people that owned horses and ponies either knew what they were doing or had them looked after by people who did.

Motherofchickens - we had warmbloods 50 years ago in the UK - we called them hunters! They were no different then than the current warmbloods crosses between Cold blood horses and hotbloods. EG Clydesdale x TB or Arab. The current Warmblood is more TB than it used to be.

I agree that more horses are over rugged and overfed than they used to be but I believe far more were stabled 24/7 than now.

There were plenty of older ponies and horses in the dim and distant past. My first pony lived to about 35 with never a sick or sorry day. But ponies/horses who were ill were PTS as often as not. I think that is a crucial difference. These days older animals are kept going with all manner of metabolic problems. My mum would pts if they had a degenerative disease, she wouldn't even get the vet, just the huntsman. It was a bit ruthless but the attitude was that it was kinder than allowing them to suffer.

 

[pennyturner]

There were plenty of older ponies and horses in the dim and distant past. My first pony lived to about 35 with never a sick or sorry day. But ponies/horses who were ill were PTS as often as not. I think that is a crucial difference. These days older animals are kept going with all manner of metabolic problems. My mum would pts if they had a degenerative disease, she wouldn't even get the vet, just the huntsman. It was a bit ruthless but the attitude was that it was kinder than allowing them to suffer.

Exactly. I'm not saying no horse lived to old age; just that the ones that did were a self-selected particularly healthy bunch. Anything which wasn't didn't get the medicines to maintain it as a 'cushings' horse. They simply didn't exist.

 

[TarrSteps]

Exactly. I'm not saying no horse lived to old age; just that the ones that did were a self-selected particularly healthy bunch. Anything which wasn't didn't get the medicines to maintain it as a 'cushings' horse. They simply didn't exist.

I would agree. I knew lots of healthy, useful older horses when I was young and I know many now. But I also know many horses that are alive now having sustained illness and injuries that would have meant the end, or at least permanent retirement, when I was a kid. The tough survived and thrived.

It's a bit like cancer rates in people - they have continued to rise in part because more people live long enough, well enough to develop it!

 

[Tnavas]

There were plenty of older ponies and horses in the dim and distant past. My first pony lived to about 35 with never a sick or sorry day. But ponies/horses who were ill were PTS as often as not. I think that is a crucial difference. These days older animals are kept going with all manner of metabolic problems. My mum would pts if they had a degenerative disease, she wouldn't even get the vet, just the huntsman. It was a bit ruthless but the attitude was that it was kinder than allowing them to suffer.

I think too that there are many people who go to extremes to keep their sick horse alive regardless of the consequences.

Medicine may have improved but is it right to keep any animal alive at the expense of its quality of life? You see on here many times the owner that says - that horse x gets pills everyday for some particular problem - it can't work though because its still not quite sound - what is a horse that is unsound? It's a horse feeling pain - is it right to keep this horse alive?

I feel many are far too selfish to do the right thing because THEY will feel hurt at the horses passing. When my lovely Tnavas was PTS I cried while it was being done as I was losing my dear friend of 14 years - if he had been prepared to be sedate and mooch around the paddock until nature took him I would have kept him forever but he didn't - he'd have a TB hoon at any excuse and to see him crippled the next day was heartbreaking - his navicular didn't respond enough to medication - the kindest thing was to let him go.

There are many people who in their misguided attempt to do the right thing by their horse are infact leaving them open to a future of discomfort. Overweight horses, overfed on processed feeds and over rugged - sunlight on the horses coat is crucial for the production of Vitamin D - one of the reasons that stabled horses were prone to degenerative problems such as Navicular and pedalostitis - they didn't get enough daylight on their skins.

If you are able to reset your horses metabolism by allowing him to naturally lose weight in the winter then you are helping to prolong his well life.

There are always the exceptions such as the horse that has trouble maintaining weight - there you need to thoroughly look into WHY the horse doesn't thrive - the above horse came to me as a 4yr old - I'd known him while he was in training - he had problems - he looked terrible despite an artic truck of food every week - his problem was low grade pain from a neck misalignment - he couldn't graze in comfort as putting his head down hurt . Showed no other signs - I just thought I had a bad doer - The chiro was treating his tripping/stumbling problem and eventually after the horse fell over on me - nerves to both front legs trapped at the same time - the chiro and vet got together and knocked him out - chiro got to work and the horse never looked back - lived on the smell of an oily rag after that.

 

[lastchancer]

^^^ What she says

 

[khalswitz]

To give a different angle, perhaps what you consider 'poor doers' , are actually horses doing what is natural - losing weight in winter. Allowing a horse to lose some weight isn't bad management, in fact I would say that feeding to prevent this loss is worse management in terms of maintaining the overall health of the horse.

Now obviously I'm not suggesting allowing horses to become 'poor' - although I probably have a different idea to many of what constitutes poor, as both a vet and a horse owner. I like to feel ribs very easily, and when my horse is fit I have no problem with seeing his ribs - unfortunately he lives off fresh air, I would much rather have to supplement hay this winter as opposed to facing going into next spring with him overweight. Unfortunately as horse owners we have lost sight of what is actually a desirable weight, as the vast majority of horses are at least a little overweight. Seeing a horse at a good weight is the exception rather than the rule in my job.

Really, those horses that naturally lose weight in winter should be easier to manage - feed to allow a small (5%) weight loss by the end of winter, and then allow spring and summer grazing/warmth to do the work of putting the weight back on.

By poor, I mean he dropped to 1.7/1.8 condition score last winter with BUCKETS of feed and ad lib haylage. By tends to drop weight, I mean go poor - on vets advice I stopped riding him at the end of last winter because we were struggling so much with weight. He was gaunt in the flanks, visibly ribby with a protruding tail head and visible spinous processes over the withers - all because I didn't know him well enough, and didn't start feeding him up quickly enough - after that, I couldn't get weight on no matter how hard I tried. And I worked at a rescue at the time, having left vet school the year before so I knew what thin is - he wasn't a welfare case by any means but he was definitely poor.

After a season of feeding three large feeds a day, ad lib haylage, rugging to the nines an eventually not working him, we had him diagnosed with PSSM and ulcers (ex racer), so we had an explanation for the poor doing. I've been able to get weight back on, and have been proactively feeding up for the winter - now, he looks good, I'd say a 2.8, but am I hell letting him drop weight after the fiasco last year. Ad lib haylage, alfa a oil, ERS pellets, stud balancer and fast fibre intwo decent bucket feeds a day - and were maintaining, thank god.

 

[Tnavas]

By poor, I mean he dropped to 1.7/1.8 condition score last winter with BUCKETS of feed and ad lib haylage. By tends to drop weight, I mean go poor - on vets advice I stopped riding him at the end of last winter because we were struggling so much with weight. He was gaunt in the flanks, visibly ribby with a protruding tail head and visible spinous processes over the withers - all because I didn't know him well enough, and didn't start feeding him up quickly enough - after that, I couldn't get weight on no matter how hard I tried. And I worked at a rescue at the time, having left vet school the year before so I knew what thin is - he wasn't a welfare case by any means but he was definitely poor.

After a season of feeding three large feeds a day, ad lib haylage, rugging to the nines an eventually not working him, we had him diagnosed with PSSM and ulcers (ex racer), so we had an explanation for the poor doing. I've been able to get weight back on, and have been proactively feeding up for the winter - now, he looks good, I'd say a 2.8, but am I hell letting him drop weight after the fiasco last year. Ad lib haylage, alfa a oil, ERS pellets, stud balancer and fast fibre intwo decent bucket feeds a day - and were maintaining, thank god.

It would be a great idea to have this horse checked thoroughly for any skeletal misalignment - low grade pain is great at sucking off weight.

 

[khalswitz]

It would be a great idea to have this horse checked thoroughly for any skeletal misalignment - low grade pain is great at sucking off weight.

Like I said, he had low grade ulcers, which we've treated, and changing the diet for PSSM made a huge difference to the weight, and he has ongoing chiro as he was out in his pelvis, we reckon due to a race he was marked as falling in... had him a year and he's only just coming right now!! Had so many problems, once we sorted the weight he became awful with bucking and being super sharp, have only now got there with his EPSM, ulcers, physio and chiro to the point where he is willing and able! He is literally the most difficult horse I have ever owned, and I've had difficult horses... he is also naturally dominant, so there's no telling him, ever. I've had to become very canny, and stay ten steps ahead at all times...

But he is now out doing intro/prelim dressage (not very well) and is jumping courses of 80cm very stylishly at home, with out first SJ planned for the new year... so we are getting there eventually. After my Highlands/Welsh X/Lipizzaner X/TB X and WB plus all my work backing and producing, then at the rescue rehabilitating, I thought I had a fairly broad spec experience, but he has stumped me at every turn. Hence my reasonably common lamenting updates on this forum on a regular basis!

 

[Tnavas]

Like I said, he had low grade ulcers, which we've treated, and changing the diet for PSSM made a huge difference to the weight, and he has ongoing chiro as he was out in his pelvis, we reckon due to a race he was marked as falling in... had him a year and he's only just coming right now!! Had so many problems, once we sorted the weight he became awful with bucking and being super sharp, have only now got there with his EPSM, ulcers, physio and chiro to the point where he is willing and able! He is literally the most difficult horse I have ever owned, and I've had difficult horses... he is also naturally dominant, so there's no telling him, ever. I've had to become very canny, and stay ten steps ahead at all times...

But he is now out doing intro/prelim dressage (not very well) and is jumping courses of 80cm very stylishly at home, with out first SJ planned for the new year... so we are getting there eventually. After my Highlands/Welsh X/Lipizzaner X/TB X and WB plus all my work backing and producing, then at the rescue rehabilitating, I thought I had a fairly broad spec experience, but he has stumped me at every turn. Hence my reasonably common lamenting updates on this forum on a regular basis!

Sounds like he is a lot of fun to have around - I loved my TB - when Warmbloods became the in thing to own in NZ I bought one but only rode her for a short while - she was so boring to ride - I went back to my dear Tnavas horse - he was fun to ride, quick, cheeky and so intelligent.

 

[khalswitz]

He's cheeky and SOOO intelligent, that's for sure!! Despite him being a menace I wouldn;t switch him now... although it took a lot of forum support (paretic from Lolo) to keep me going!

Out of interest, some photos of him last year. I don't have any from February/March, when he was at his worst, as to be honest I felt awful looking at him let alone photographing him, but I really wish I had now just for reference - he got diagnosed in March, and the first photos of him I have were of a XC in late April once he had put on enough condition to be acceptable in public/back in work! However it gives you an idea... back then I thought he was looking so good to what he had been!!!

When I got him in October, just after a summer on the grass, he looked pretty good - not great top line/not toned, but condition was fine.

Him in April at the XC, about 6-8 weeks after ulcer treatment/EPSM diet change, looking SO MUCH BETTER, we saw a difference within a few weeks (excuse my godawful position, he used to be a nightmare for slamming to a halt... this was a stop-and-leaper):http://www.stephenhammondphotography.co.uk/?Action=VF&id=1222786019&ppp=0&ppwd=98107csp


Him early May at RC Camp, again looking much better, although I got a few snooty comments from people about his ribbiness, hippiness and hollow flanks...:
http://www.stephenhammondphotography.co.uk/?Action=VF&id=1224744419&ppwd=98107csp

Him in June, condition looking better, still no top line but weight looking much better.

Him last weekend of July, at his first (and last) hunter show (he was a bit... explosive when everyone else started cantering):

Him jumping with my friend in August:

Him in October/November (not sure which) away to go hacking out:

And him last week, with me and his field mate :

So yeah, he literally looks like a different horse. I had a lesson just before I stopped working him in February at a clinic where they commented on his weight, then had another clinic with them in September and they thought I had a new horse. However it means I am loathe to let him drop any weight at all this year...

 

[windand rain]

I dont think anyone for a minute is expecting those who struggle to keep weight on their horses or those with underlying disease should randomly let their horses lose weight What is being advocated is letting the extra tubbiness of summer disappear before it all starts again in Spring So instead of letting particularly ponies get fatter and fatter year on year because they start the summer fat let them drop off towards the start of the new grass season therefore making it less necessary to muzzle and restrict them and help them live a nearer normal life I can see no harm in letting them drop to a 2.5 by april so they can graze normally through pring and gain to about a 3.25 moving to 3.5 during the autumn before letting them drop off again in late winter

 

[pennyturner]

The point about understanding why the horse is losing weight is well made. My welsh D came to me last year as a bit of a bag of bones, which is odd for a welshy. He improved for worming and decent forage, but not as much as I expected.

He's a complete wuss, and literally fretted the weight off worrying about getting bullied by my gang of mild-mannered softies. He wouldn't even walk alongside another horse under saddle.

A year on and he's holding weight as I would expect, as he's finally realised they're not going to kick his head in!

Some fidget or fret, some feel the cold worse than others - but lack of thrift can be caused by discomfort.

 

[Tnavas]

kahlswitz - a great difference - he's definitely come a long way - mine was very similar in that he was ribby, hollow flanks no top line and my boss would really upset me by saying the horse looked sick. Poor boy was in so much pain.

This is him just before the chiro manipulate him under anaesthetic and the second picture taken just a few weeks later with one of my students

 

[khalswitz]

kahlswitz - a great difference - he's definitely come a long way - mine was very similar in that he was ribby, hollow flanks no top line and my boss would really upset me by saying the horse looked sick. Poor boy was in so much pain.

This is him just before the chiro manipulate him under anaesthetic and the second picture taken just a few weeks later with one of my students

Wow, what a difference!!! Looks absolutely cracking in that second photo!

Yeah, I reckon he must have been very uncomfortable, what with the ulcers and the muscle problems from the EPSM, and then when he did gain weight, he was sore in his pelvis so was so unruly to ride. He is still hot and very opinionated, but isn't nasty the way he was before - I can predict when he will throw a strop now, and he doesn't keep at it til he decks me anymore.

Funny, looking at those photos and comparing them, I think you see a difference in the eye, too, looks much softer. Funny how I never noticed that before.