Why I'm giving up - a YM's perspective

Goldenstar said:
No argument I just think it ridcoulous that you think that 3.50 is too expensive for some one to get a head collar walk to the field catch the horse get it out the gate take it in the stable tie it up get a hoof pick ,pick out its feet take the head collar off the horse put it away put the hoof pick away .
For the hay in the trug the person has to walk to your stable put the food in and walk back to what they are doing .
I think £3 is expensive for this however it may well be a service is needed at the time when the manger does not really want to provide the service hence the high cost .
Click to expand...

Yes I do. Certainly. We are talking a couple of minutes. At the yard I worked at on the odd weekend we were being paid £6.00 per hour, we were responsible for about six or seven turnouts/muckouts/bring ins each. We would get the hay/haylage in from outside where it was stored, feed all 40 horses and ponies. Turn our six or seven each out, then muck out - full bed, water, hay, make up feeds for p.m, sweep yard, bring horses in, unrug, pick out feet, wash legs. We started at 8am and finished at midday. .

My current yard charges £2.00 for brining in which includes picking out feet, checking for injuries, taking off rugs, if cold putting on stable rugs, etc. THe one before included this in the £65.00 per week I was paying (at the top SJ yard). THe one before that you either got a free turnout or a free bring in each weekday. Some yards are very avaricious was what I was saying compared with the others that I have been on.

And about the trug. No they were not going out of their way to leave what they were doing to walk a few yards to my horse. The yard that I rang up about and didn't go to because of their shocking price strategy was feeding all the horses at the same time, so going down a line of horses in an indoor barn and up the other side again and chucking a bucket in (contents and all). This is the yard that the bloke running it left because he couldn't make it pay. At those prices I don't expect he could. I honestly didn't think I would have to go into such huge detail on this forum about a tub of hay, in exchange for being spared a slating!
 
ester said:
I think plenty of people read your post correctly AC14, it is disingenuous to suggest everyone didn't and I don't remember any sort of huge argument?
You deem £3 too expensive for a turnout or get in, though £2.50 was ok. People disagreed, such is life on the forum.
If I could only see to my horse at one end of the day I would think £30-40 a week quite reasonable which I think was the general consensus.
Click to expand...

Yes Ester :rolleyes:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
applecart14 said:
Ester my love, if I said the sky was blue you would argue it was green. It gets boring after a few years.............
Click to expand...

Oh my! Pot, kettle, black ...

OP - I don't blame you. I said never again and will stick to it. I'm not surprised you feel relieved now the notices are done and I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. :)
 
Mrs B said:
Oh my! Pot, kettle, black ...

OP - I don't blame you. I said never again and will stick to it. I'm not surprised you feel relieved now the notices are done and I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. :)
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
Mrs B said:
Oh my! Pot, kettle, black ...

OP - I don't blame you. I said never again and will stick to it. I'm not surprised you feel relieved now the notices are done and I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. :)
Click to expand...

Err I didn't actually post that in the end, I changed my mind.
 
well you must have pressed the post button in the first instance or it couldn't be quoted.
Charming as always.
As usual I just like things to be more correctly represented, not just other's thoughts of how things unfolded on other posts although everyone is of course welcome to go and read it in it's entirety.
If correct and accurate things are said I quite happily agree with them all over this forum otherwise I may suggest a different point of view and I am sure I can bring up multiple incidences where I have agreed with you, you just seem to forget them. In fact I did just up there about admin ignoring multiple accounts, but lets not the facts get in the way.
 
Cortez said:
That's why I gave up having liverys over 20 years ago: pure slavery! Oh, and 25 years ago the average charge for basic (i.e. non-riding) livery in the US - where I happened to be at the time - was £800, which is at least more realistic.
Click to expand...

Particularly difficult in Ireland where horse owners really do expect almost free care for their horse. I gave up a couple of years ago, after more than 20 years of running a livery yard. Disillusioned didn't even begin to describe it. It was a huge relief to make the decision, and it has been life changing with absolutely no regrets.
 
I'm constantly surprised that I can keep a horse for so little. My yard is large, over 50 horses, the DIY cost is £150 per month. Since I've been there 8 years, the school has been resurfaced, a lunge pen has been built, all the fields have post and rail fencing. We have a spectacular riding track around the land and the stables are functional though not beautiful. Verges are constantly being manicured, the muck heap is pushed back daily by tractor, all maintenance is done for leaks, electrical issues, broken rails or stables. There are two fulltime chaps who do all the work, no horse contact, probably for not much more than minimum wage. I very much doubt that the accummulated £150s per month goes anywhere near paying for all this work but when the owner bought a new car there was dissent in other liveries that he "was doing rather too well".
 
Wow 9tails, if I were the liveries on that yard and I would shut up and smile and congratulate the YO on his new car. My DIY livery is a similar price, our YO is a farmer so we even get good quality haylage and straw included in winter months. Everything is functional and maintained. Of course it's not perfect, but on the whole I think we have an excellent deal.
 
9tails said:
I'm constantly surprised that I can keep a horse for so little. My yard is large, over 50 horses, the DIY cost is £150 per month. Since I've been there 8 years, the school has been resurfaced, a lunge pen has been built, all the fields have post and rail fencing. We have a spectacular riding track around the land and the stables are functional though not beautiful. Verges are constantly being manicured, the muck heap is pushed back daily by tractor, all maintenance is done for leaks, electrical issues, broken rails or stables. There are two fulltime chaps who do all the work, no horse contact, probably for not much more than minimum wage. I very much doubt that the accummulated £150s per month goes anywhere near paying for all this work but when the owner bought a new car there was dissent in other liveries that he "was doing rather too well".
Click to expand...

50 horses at £150 a month is £90,000 a year, allowing for maintenance, but applying economies of scale, I'd hope they would be turning fair profit margin. Isnt this a yard that doesn't provide all year turn around, and doesn't have huge amount of well draining land?
 
applecart14 said:
Nobody thinks that. You have read it and that is YOUR interpretation of things. BUt that is so not the case. Everyone is looking for the best deal around, its called being savvy with money. Just because people do that doesn't mean to say that they expect to be subsidized.
Click to expand...
But the best deal around often does mean that the YO does indeed subsidise the horse owner, as the OP has pointed out, to the point where it is no longer sustainable for her to continue to provide a livery service to her customers. While you may not expect your hobby to be subsidised, there are many others who appear to.
 
dominobrown said:
I agree with OP and thinks its such a shame.
I do think the whole industry needs a wake up call. I think because actual horses themselves are relatively cheap, however the cost to care and produce them has gone up, and then people whine about £2500 for an all-rounder!
Click to expand...

Don't start me on the cost of horses!! FAR too many people want a young, good quality horse, backed and hacking out quietly - alone or in company. For that, they think maybe £3,500 is PLENTY. Of course, if they want a HW hunter good enough to go to HOYS, they USUALLY realise they have to pay a BIT more for that horse as a 5 yo - maybe £5,000.

Ignore the original cost of the broodmare (and my most expensive one was £10,000 at 3yo), assume she produces one every year with no real foaling problems and that they all live and grow to 5yo, and that you keep them at home on owned land (hell, you don't want to charge your own horses rent). And that you can back them yourself while doing everything else! And that stud/semen costs are reasonable and you only need one delivery! IF all that was true, I could just about cover my costs by selling the best ones at £5,000 - as long as I didn't want NMW for me!

Fools breed horses for wise men to buy!
 
It's not just horses though, there's a daft trout in Facebook keeps advertising free mobile home accommodation in exchange for 4 hours a day handyman type work...errrr our yard handy man charges £20-30 an hour for his multitude of skills and experience, I doubt her skanky caravan is worth £600 a week
 
Love how people compare horse livery to boarding a dog or cat.
It costs more to build a model licence conditions compliant cat or dog pen than it does to build a stable.
They have to be licenced and by the nature of boarding they are not occupied all days of the year.
They are fully looked after - I include feeding to owners choice, washing all dishes etc, supply & wash bedding, clean & wash down daily, have vets fees insurance, supply litter for the cats, do on to one exercising for the dogs.
They are checked from early morning & have just bedded down at 9pm.
Some get groomed - depends on coat.
Each pen is powerwashed and /or steam cleaned when a pet goes home.

We have more regulations than for an old peoples home! Just had to upgrade consumer units & get electrical safety certificates because our local authority decided they wanted them.
I'm ready to retire and won't be taking on liveries instead.
 
Frumpoon said:
It's not just horses though, there's a daft trout in Facebook keeps advertising free mobile home accommodation in exchange for 4 hours a day handyman type work...errrr our yard handy man charges £20-30 an hour for his multitude of skills and experience, I doubt her skanky caravan is worth £600 a week
Click to expand...

You must be in my area ish as I keep seeing this. I did tell her about a year ago that what she was offering was illegal, and she wants a hell of a lot for a grotty caravan! Shes always advertising so clearly cant keep "staff" I wonder why?!
 
Applecart, I am sure the use of a different name was not to annoy you, but to protect the poster's persona in real life. Some of their accquaintances may know their user name on here.
 
wingedhorse said:
50 horses at £150 a month is £90,000 a year, allowing for maintenance, but applying economies of scale, I'd hope they would be turning fair profit margin. Isnt this a yard that doesn't provide all year turn around, and doesn't have huge amount of well draining land?
Click to expand...
£90k gross income a year, less costs of two full time employees and all maintenance/materials/business rates/insurance costs etc doesn't leave much profit IMHO.
 
Disillusioned said:
For info, I am a long time forum user under a different name but needed to be anonymous for this.

So, I am a very experienced livery yard manager and for several years, I have been renting and running a yard. I provide full and part livery – full includes turning out, bringing in, mucking out, bedding, feed and hay (good quality, ad lib); part is the same but without mucking out and bedding. (The terms of my lease don’t allow me to offer DIY.) The horses are turned out every day of the year, I have a decent 20x60 school, good hacking and the yard is well located for local venues.

There have been many threads which have culminated in this post, particularly the recent one regarding costs of extras and what people consider a reasonable charge/service. I’ve got a few points to make, so please bear with me!

Firstly, the cost of livery in general. My prices are quite reasonable for my area of the country, and I provide a high standard of care. However, when I put the prices up by £30 per month last year (previous rise was 3 years prior), there were mutterings from some of my owners. (The rise was due to costs of hay and feed rising over time and increases in my yard rent and insurance amongst other things, so quite justifiable.)

As all yard owners/managers know, we cannot charge what would actually be a realistic price for livery because only a minority would then be able to afford it! I tried to think of something to put it into context against and the best I could come up with was renting a room in a house. Round here, you can’t get a room for less than £450 per month. If you think of DIY livery as your horse ‘lodging’ on someone else’s property, how many people could afford that as a starting point?

And then the cost of extras for DIYs/what is actually included in the service for part/full livery....

There have been comments about how long it should take to pick out feet and that it is an unskilled job. When I pick a horse’s feet out, I’m not just removing mud and stones. As I run my hand down the horse’s leg to pick the foot up, I’m automatically checking for any heat/cuts/swelling, etc. I’m also checking the shoes – all there/twisted/loose/risen clenches? Any sign of heat in the hoof/bruising/thrush? If unshod, any cracks? All in the few minutes the job takes me. Surely this is worth the £1.50 some people begrudge paying?

Rug changes – not just a case of drag one off and chuck another on. Again, I’m checking - is the rug damaged/rubbing/leaking? Is the horse too hot/cold? Making sure I’m putting the appropriate rug on for that horse. As well as giving the horse a general condition check.

Turning out/bringing in. I’m giving the horse a general once over here too. Is it stiff/lame/any cuts or knocks? Filled legs? Eaten breakfast/last night’s hay? Drunk usual amount? And obviously, if there are any injuries, I will treat them accordingly and notify the owner.

If the horse is young/green/ill-mannered, then I am by default also training it to be polite and easy to deal with for no extra cost.

I know all my horses’ beds regardless of whether I muck them out or not. So I can tell if the bed is too neat/messy/dirty/clean for that horse. I know all my horses’ characters and quirks and what is normal appearance and behaviour for each one. Therefore I will notice quickly if something isn’t right and deal with it appropriately.

Taking into account the above, and the time spent on indirect labour such as poo-picking, general field/yard/arena maintenance, admin, etc, a basic daily labour charge of £10 per horse on my yard wouldn’t seem unreasonable. But that would be £300 per horse per month before any other costs. And would then need a bit more added onto the full liveries for my mucking them out.

Ah yes, the other costs. There are the obvious ones such as hay, feed, etc. But also things such as the yard rent, insurance, rates, maintaining/replacing yard equipment and fencing, maintaining first aid kits, fire extinguisher checks, National Insurance, etc. Some years I pay tax, others my earnings haven’t gone above the tax-free allowance. And if a box is empty, then my income drops by a few hundred a month, but there is actually minimal difference in the outgoings.

If you add the £300 labour charge to, say, a £400 ‘lodging’ (to use my previous comparison) charge to cover all other costs, that would put my part livery at £700 per month. A lot more than what it is at present and considerably more than my current full livery price! But if I was able to charge this sort of money then I would actually be able to earn a reasonable living.

And there is the issue. I now cannot long-term earn a reasonable living unless people’s ideas of what livery should realistically cost move forward. I never expected to make a fortune and I know this sort of work is a ‘lifestyle choice’. But please bear in mind that without people like me making this choice or property owners choosing to provide equine facilities, whether a basic field or all the bells and whistles, people would not be able to make the ‘lifestyle choice’ to own a horse. I do genuinely love my job, and I know I am good at it – my happy relaxed horses and owners are proof – but unfortunately appreciation and job satisfaction don’t pay the bills. I have 25+ years experience, qualifications, have over the years managed yards of 30+ horses and teams of staff. In many other industries, I’d be on pretty good money. But not in horses.

Unfortunately I can no longer afford, or want, to subsidise other people’s horses.

The reason for the new user name and for not going into more detail about me and my yard is so hopefully no-one will recognise me.

This is because, on 1st August, I will be handing a letter to the owners of my yard giving the required period of notice to terminate my lease. And depending on what the owners then decide to do with the yard, I may have to give notice to my liveries, and I wouldn’t want anyone to find out from here before I tell them myself.
Click to expand...
I sympathize with you entirely;

We are expected to house peoples horses and give them a lot more in cost included in their monthly bill than it is financially viable, example ad lib hay that means a livery could potentially have over 3/4 bale a day if they like which is about £ 5 per day and lighting - stable rent - labour - diesel - facilities - water - maintenance etc. An average full livery and I mean Full to included riding etc is about £ 500 pcm. Which is about £ 17 per day. It is more costly to have liveries than not IMO, I can really see why so many get rid of liveries and keep their premises to themselves.


My husband has asked me many times if I want to get rid of the livery horses and just keep ours here, but it is a labour of love. It would much less hassle to get rid of everyone, but I am lucky to have a really good group.

With other stories on here about other yards who have problems with back stabbing, b1tching going on, it's no wonder why yards do close down or managers leave. If you do come on here to ask for help and ask opinions you get many member's judge you and get all high and mighty and holier than though about what your doing in your own premises or the way you run the yard and totally side track from what the member asked.

That is why some time ago I changed my user name, but I with you on your post and wish you the best of luck in the future which ever path you decide to take.
 
Last edited:
applecart14. There have been times I’ve thought you’ve been jumped on unfairly on this forum, but your contradictory comments on this thread have hit a bit of a nerve.

Firstly my user name on this thread. For someone who complains that people don’t read her threads properly, you obviously didn’t read my first post all the way through. If you had, you would have seen my reason for being anonymous and not going into specific details about my yard. If I’d made myself and my yard recognisable, that would have been hugely disrespectful to my liveries if any of them are on here and read of my decision before finding out in person.

You say “Some people expect to be given livery for free” and then in the same post complain about how much per week extras would add to your DIY bill, and that your idea of a “reasonable charge” is different to what a yard actually charges. Does that mean you want these extras to be provided for nothing or next to nothing? Yes, if all is well, a bring in or picking out feet doesn’t always take very long, but if a horse has twisted a shoe half off, that £1.50 hoof-picking charge then includes the shoe being removed or made safe. If a horse comes in with an injury, that £2.00 then includes the wound being cleaned and treated appropriately. So as well as paying for the service being provided and someone being there to provide it, you are paying for anything unexpected to be dealt with at the time, which could, for example, potentially save you a vet bill or urgent farrier callout.

You have said on this thread and on yours that you wouldn’t run a yard as there wouldn’t be enough profit margin. You brought up yet again the £3 tub of hay and that the man running the yard left because he couldn’t make it pay and implied it was due to his charges. It’s probably more likely that he costed it out and actually charged what he needed to make a profit but had to close because people like you aren’t prepared to pay those realistic costs.

No-one actually goes to a yard and says to the YM “I want you to subsidise my horse” and yes, everyone wants a good deal. But quite often they only consider the livery charge to just be for a stable, grazing and use of a school, and depending on the level of livery, mucking out, turning out, etc as well. They don’t consider that it has to cover the unseen costs of maintenance, insurance, etc too. And if I have to get in someone like Frumpoon’s handyman in to do work on the yard, then it also has to cover his £20-odd per hour.

I would have needed to be charging around 50% more on my livery prices to be able to remain in business AND have a reasonable wage for myself AND be able to have a rainy-day fund, proper pension, etc. But that would have priced me way out of the market. And someone like you would not have considered it a good deal at all.
 
marmalade76 said:
It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.
Click to expand...

Side line? poppycock!! That is a joke it is a FULL time job owning and running/working a yard, how could we do another job in between of running a yard morning and after noon and evening???
 
The yards I see that are successful and make money have a couple of things in common. They are huge and they have good facilities, they are also either owned land or farmer tenanted land and they are DIY with assistance charged for. . The owners run the yard but also do other farming related stuff as the livery bit takes relatively limited work, so they have time in the summer to do farming stuff. They are run as businesses but are relatively cheap because of economies of scale. There are people who think they are expensive as they charge the top end of local rates but for what you get they are cheap. They dont do full livery, but they all either employ someone to do services or they allow freelance people to provide them. They all have waiting lists and have all been running for years and years and years, and usually expand on a semi regular basis, taking on other properties close by, which brings them more income and increases facilities for the clients.

The ones that dont make money and fold are the people who try and run full/part livery yards on rented land as a sole occupation. I've just talked a friend out of doing that as the sums just dont add up.

I pay pennies for livery, but have very poor facilities and the YO actually rents the yard and has a few DIY liveries. It wouldnt suit many people as there is nowhere near enough grazing for the horses, but mine is a fat cob and the less grass the better, so it works for me currently. No idea if she makes money, she doesnt work but I doubt she makes a living from it, more that she covers the cost of her own horse for very limited work.
 
What does shock me a bit is that I pay less for livery in Northampton than I ever did in the North East. My house is valued at roughly 150k, I could buy the same house in the NE for 60k, due to the demand for housing and pressure for land to build etc. Maybe thats part of the issue?
 
s4sugar - I have a couple of good friends who provide boarding facilities and I fully appreciate that that line of work too is not the cushy number it's often seen to be. Again, it is a 365 day a year commitment, you are tied to opening hours and you have the added insecurity of it being seasonal. Like you, one friend has just had to spend a lot of money following a council visit and his facilities are already one of the best in his area.
 
TYSSANDI said:
Side line? poppycock!! That is a joke it is a FULL time job owning and running/working a yard, how could we do another job in between of running a yard morning and after noon and evening???
Click to expand...

That's what your husband is for surely? To do the other job :p.

TBF that is sort of how it works here, though only DIY, house has stables for the YO's horses, they opt to fill the spare stables with a few liveries. YO's never really worked apart from the odd bit of teaching.
 
FrankieCob said:
The yards I see that are successful and make money have a couple of things in common. They are huge and they have good facilities, they are also either owned land or farmer tenanted land and they are DIY with assistance charged for. . The owners run the yard but also do other farming related stuff as the livery bit takes relatively limited work, so they have time in the summer to do farming stuff. They are run as businesses but are relatively cheap because of economies of scale. There are people who think they are expensive as they charge the top end of local rates but for what you get they are cheap. They dont do full livery, but they all either employ someone to do services or they allow freelance people to provide them. They all have waiting lists and have all been running for years and years and years, and usually expand on a semi regular basis, taking on other properties close by, which brings them more income and increases facilities for the clients.

The ones that dont make money and fold are the people who try and run full/part livery yards on rented land as a sole occupation. I've just talked a friend out of doing that as the sums just dont add up.

I pay pennies for livery, but have very poor facilities and the YO actually rents the yard and has a few DIY liveries. It wouldnt suit many people as there is nowhere near enough grazing for the horses, but mine is a fat cob and the less grass the better, so it works for me currently. No idea if she makes money, she doesnt work but I doubt she makes a living from it, more that she covers the cost of her own horse for very limited work.
Click to expand...

I think you're right FrankieCob (about economies of scale/farmers etc)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top