Why is the horse world so toxic.

[luckyoldme]

Have you ever run a livery yard? It's not exactly a "nice little earner", and I'm not sure I'd classify expanding a business as greed, but that's just a different perspective I suppose.

As I said Cortez it was cash in hand.
It was a completely trouble free cash in hand bonus where the guy could go on holidays with no bother. Literally trouble free for him. He could leave his animals , go on holidays and not have to worry about them.
On this occasion I'm the person who was there and you are getting on your high horse about a situation you were not even a witness to and know nothing about .

 

[teapot]

If you and the vet are happy than I’m not sure how much sway a yard manager can have here, as the paying client. Your horse, you’re paying the bills - it’s a discussion to be had.

Is the horse world toxic? Yes it can be, and it gets away with a lot more than other industries do for reasons unbeknown to me. Is this an example of it being toxic though? I’m not so sure.

 

[Cortez]

As I said Cortez it was cash in hand.
It was a completely trouble free cash in hand bonus where the guy could go on holidays with no bother. Literally trouble free for him. He could leave his animals , go on holidays and not have to worry about them.
On this occasion I'm the person who was there and you are getting on your high horse about a situation you were not even a witness to and know nothing about .

I know quite a lot about running a horse business though, and if you are posting a situation on a public forum it must be supposed that it will be commented upon. So nobody knows anything about anything unless they were a witness to it? Strange attitude.

 

[Goldenstar]

Why? Because YO is doing what they're supposed to and looking after the horse's welfare?

Because Op does not like it that’s why .
Her horse is fat she admits that but she can’t change how the yard is managed that’s her not place .
So she goes to somewhere where they don’t care .

 

[Goldie's mum]

she was justifying the other horses weight in the conversation. I didn’t bring it up. It also wasn’t done nice manner she sounded like she just wanted to fight. It’s was a insult not a in the correct manner. Plus I think she was just angry because I wouldn’t let worker ride my horse.

Would it be correct to say that this is not an isolated argument? It sounds as if there are on-going issues that you didn't tell us about?

 

[Gallop_Away]

In fairness sometimes it is not what is said but the manner in which it is said. Yes YM absolutely has a duty of care to the horses on the yard and equine obesity is a serious problem and cause for concern. However that does not mean it can not be discussed with the owner in a professional and courteous manner. Too many people use being blunt as an excuse for rudeness imo. Also I think many YOs forget that liveries are paying customers and should be treated with the same professional manner as any other business treats it's customers.

Ultimately it's the horse's owner who has the final say on how the horse is managed. If a YO takes particular issue with it for welfare grounds and the owner does not wish to change how the horse is managed, they are of course free to ask the owner to find another yard. Equally if an owner is unhappy with the service they are receiving then they are free to move. It works both ways.

 

[luckyoldme]

I know quite a lot about running a horse business though, and if you are posting a situation on a public forum it must be supposed that it will be commented upon. So nobody knows anything about anything unless they were a witness to it? Strange attitude.

It's not a strange attitude at all. You are commenting on something entirely different from running a business
This guy didn't run a business. He had a lot of good grazing and was retired. He had a few folk on his land cash in hand for pocket money.
It's not the same as running a business, all businesses are a pain in the arse to run. I ran mine for 10 years.
Effectively having some trouble free paying guests on your land , helping you with your chores and paying cash in hand . It was not a business it was pocket money( you will have to assume here that without going into detail that I know more about what was going on here than you do )
What I'm trying to say is that for someone who had a nice little number like that going on the side, it was naive to risk upsetting the apple cart bringing in the local trouble maker.
In the long run it was a lot more grief than he could have predicted.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Sorry but I cannot agree with you and generalise that the WHOLE of the equine world is "toxic" just because your Yard Owner has basically given you the honest truth that your horse is obese and/or borderline obese.

She is actually doing you a favour; equine obesity is sadly becoming increasingly common and there are a lot of issues connected with it - ask anyone who's struggling with a laminitic right now, or EMS/other metabolic problems, or joint issues - all of which have excess weight as a contributory factor. Mine has equine asthma and I would not be doing her any favours if I let her get obese.

I would respectfully suggest that your YO is actually doing her JOB which is to be concerned about the overall welfare of your horse whilst it is in her care. She is trying to do her very best to encourage you to keep your horse at a correct weight and yes whilst I can appreciate you may feel a bit slighted (tho' you need not as she has your horse's welfare in mind), I would agree with her wholeheartedly.

I would be inclined to go back and discuss the matter with her if you are concerned. Or of course if you've really got your arse in your hand about it then you could always think about finding somewhere else. But I think this would be a pity as this YO is obviously professional and conscientious and is concerned with the horses under her care.

 

[Auslander]

I must be a toxic yard owner, as I keep a beady eye on everythings weight, and I have no hesitation in restricting rations if anything is getting excessively fat! I also have no hesitation in explaining myself to owners who want their fat horses to have unrestricted rations/the best grazing. They are very welcome to have their horses on lush grass/the very highest calorie feeds, but they'd have to move yards to do so!

I also have no hesitation in piling hay/haylage/hard feed into anything that needs it.

 

[ponynutz]

I think it's more that horses are such easily breakable animals that are used extensively by people for their own pleasure that most sensible horsey people take it upon themselves to ensure any animal's welfare - especially if said animal is on their property.

I'd be happy to take the advice as long as it wasn't given in a nasty way - and even then I'd take offence but still take a look at horse myself and make a judgement.

The WHOLE community isn't bad. There's definitely groups of horsey people that are a bit on their high horse (or 14.2 who knows?) but there is in any community, especially a sporty one.

 

[Sossigpoker]

If you and the vet are happy than I’m not sure how much sway a yard manager can have here, as the paying client. Your horse, you’re paying the bills - it’s a discussion to be had.

Is the horse world toxic? Yes it can be, and it gets away with a lot more than other industries do for reasons unbeknown to me. Is this an example of it being toxic though? I’m not so sure.

The land owner is ultimately responsible for welfare so it absolutely is the land /yard owner's responsibility to say something when a horse is fat. Obesity is a welfare issue and most leisure horses seem to be not just fat but in fact obese.

 

[blitznbobs]

It's not a strange attitude at all. You are commenting on something entirely different from running a business
This guy didn't run a business. He had a lot of good grazing and was retired. He had a few folk on his land cash in hand for pocket money.
It's not the same as running a business, all businesses are a pain in the arse to run. I ran mine for 10 years.
Effectively having some trouble free paying guests on your land , helping you with your chores and paying cash in hand . It was not a business it was pocket money( you will have to assume here that without going into detail that I know more about what was going on here than you do )
What I'm trying to say is that for someone who had a nice little number like that going on the side, it was naive to risk upsetting the apple cart bringing in the local trouble maker.
In the long run it was a lot more grief than he could have predicted.

*Puts lawyer hat on* what you describe is indeed a business.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have been in the horse world for over 40 years and it seems to me to have as many good and bad people as every other sphere I have entered. There are no more 'toxic' (hate that misuse of the word) people in the horse world than any other world.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

she was justifying the other horses weight in the conversation. I didn’t bring it up. It also wasn’t done nice manner she sounded like she just wanted to fight. It’s was a insult not a in the correct manner. Plus I think she was just angry because I wouldn’t let worker ride my horse.

It is absolutely your right to choose who rides your horse, she has no right to be cross about that if it isn’t part of the livery agreement. If you’re on full livery, swap to DIY.

Are the warmbloods in lots more work than yours? My warmblood was a toastrack when I took him on full loan and needed a lot of feed/ad-lib hay to get him back to the correct weight. My cob put on 10 kilos just looking at a full fat polo. Does your ym have a point? Too many yms ime ignore welfare matters eg not coming up til midday/not mucking out/rugging etc. My ym had a rule about horses going out/being seen to by a certain time, which I thought was absolutely right.

The horse world is often full of bitchy women, I was lucky that my last yard was not like this, although there were a couple of people who thought they were in charge and thankfully left. Other yards I’ve been on were toxic, but it’s unfair to tar the entire hobby with the same brush.

 

[Winters100]

It's not a strange attitude at all. You are commenting on something entirely different from running a business
This guy didn't run a business. He had a lot of good grazing and was retired. He had a few folk on his land cash in hand for pocket money.
It's not the same as running a business, all businesses are a pain in the arse to run. I ran mine for 10 years.
Effectively having some trouble free paying guests on your land , helping you with your chores and paying cash in hand . It was not a business it was pocket money( you will have to assume here that without going into detail that I know more about what was going on here than you do )
What I'm trying to say is that for someone who had a nice little number like that going on the side, it was naive to risk upsetting the apple cart bringing in the local trouble maker.
In the long run it was a lot more grief than he could have predicted.

So he must have been a family member for you to have such intimate knowledge of his finances? I mean if you know that he was simply being 'greedy', that it was 'pocket money', that was not needed then you know everything about him? For sure he had no expenses that you did not know about? He was not perhaps concerned to make some savings for his old age? Or is that also 'greedy'? What gives you the right to call someone else 'greedy' because they accept liveries on their land who you do not happen to be able to get on with?

And regarding a yard manager telling the truth about an overweight horse, good. Frankly if more were willing to speak up and point out the truth then maybe there would be less obese horses. If I was told that one of mine had a weight problem then I would have a good, hard look at them, and at what I was doing.

 

[SO1]

If your horse is overweight and you didn't realise then she is doing you a favour as it gives you time to do something about it before it gets laminitis. Maybe the warm blood owners are not so approachable as you so harder for her to raise it with them or YO is particularly fond of your horse and does not want to see it suffer from weight related issues.

My YO and the other liveries have been amazing in the lead up to, on the day of and after my pony's death. They are supporting me throughout this difficult journey. YO still checking in on me most days to make sure I am ok and providing moral support. Also when the time is right she is going to help me find another new forest. It is in times of crisis that you know who your friends are.

I am riding at a RS now only been twice but they seem very nice as well when I explained I had recently lost my pony and was suffering from grief. Long term I will get another pony so won't be a long term customer so it is not like they will be getting huge sums of money from me. YO will as I was a part livery customer and new pony will be on her yard but as she said to me it will probably take about 9 months or more to find new pony so no income from me for a while.

There are only 7 permanent liveries on the yard the rest are short term rehab or holiday liveries and everyone is nice. In the 8 years I have been on the yard there has not been a single awful person. It is not the cheapest yard and YO is very hands on with the advice in terms of welfare, the vets are here a lot checking horses, so not for everyone. There was no bitching unpleasantness at the last yard I was on either. However in both scenarios I was on my own a lot in the evenings on the yard due to the hours I work.

If your vet is happy with your horses weight then perhaps ask vet to speak to YO. Vets are often not good at telling people horse is too fat as they don't want to lose clients.

 

[luckyoldme]

Maybe it's because everyone has to put their horses in one place then be exposed to people they wouldn't normally mix with. Every owner has their own way and the every day care is given in front of an audience.

*Puts lawyer hat on* what you describe is indeed a business.

It's the elephant in the room of the horse world.
It can't really be described as a business if he wasnt declaring it as an income.

 

[sakura]

As always, this forum does a fantastic job of showing how friendly and wholesome the horse community is lol

OP - if possible, I would look to move yards if you are unhappy with the comments your YM is making. You pay money to keep your horse there and you deserve to be happy and comfortable whilst there. If moving isn't immediately an option, let your YM know that your vet is happy with your horses weight the next time they bring it up. People will always have opinions and make comments, it's up to us how we take them.

 

[Winters100]

Maybe it's because everyone has to put their horses in one place then be exposed to people they wouldn't normally mix with. Every owner has their own way and the every day care is given in front of an audience.

It's the elephant in the room of the horse world.
It can't really be described as a business if he wasnt declaring it as an income.

Just because someone would like to receive cash does not mean that they do not declare the income, I always pay my vet in cash as it is most convenient for me, but I would assume that he declares it.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think some people are being a bit hard on the OP, but I get it.

I think this isn't necessarily about the OP's horse bring obese or not, but more about the double standard or inconsistency with rules, ideas, or applied concepts. I do see this often at yards. The same "rule" doesn't apply to the same people in the same manner. It does probably feel a bit odd when a YO gets on you for your horse being obese but accepts when other horses are obese and doesn't do or say anything. You sort of feel it's a bit attacking or personal, even if it isn't.

I do think the horse world can be toxic. Of course not every aspect of it or person involved, but there are some downright miserable and nasty folk out there, and we all know there are all sorts of scammers or unsavory individuals that conduct their business in a very unethical fashion. Many parts of the horse world are a bit unregulated and/or unchecked.

It's great if you haven't had toxic experiences or find them to be very rare (I don't think they're soo common and to some extent you can chose who you're surrounded by), but don't discount others experiences either.

As a whole it isn't toxic per say, but it isn't abscent of toxicity.

 

[ihatework]

I don’t think the horse world is any more or less toxic than every sphere of life.

Yes there are the occasional incidence of toxicity, but on the whole I find the horse world an amazing community to be part of.

I wouldn’t class the OP post as toxic. Just a communication issue / difference of opinion.

 

[luckyoldme]

Just because someone would like to receive cash does not mean that they do not declare the income, I always pay my vet in cash as it is most convenient for me, but I would assume that he declares it.

I of course understand that having ran my own business.
I did know all the details from the horse's mouth . Even though it's of no consequence now (I am totally certain of this) I didn't really want to come right out and say it.
Do you really think that out of everyone on here with horses on other people's land that they are all going through the books ?

 

[MagicMelon]

A fight over it? I feel it'd be fine if the YM said they felt your horse was overweight and made some suggestions as to what to do about it perhaps but way out of line to have and arguement over it and surely its not up to them what your horse is fed? Its YOUR horse so they have to feed it what YOU say? Just based on the fact they were dictating how much my horse was fed, I would leave!

 

[redredruby]

I am torn on this. On the one hand, yard managers absolutely should say when a horse is overweight and where possible support the owner to make the changes necessary. On the other hand it sounds as though the OP is on top of the situation, including having advice from the vet. The crux of the matter seems to be how the yard manager approached the issue and clearly "looking for a fight" is not acceptable.
With regards to the overweight warmbloods, it is easy to say that is not the OPs business but it surely doesn't create a a good environment on the yard when the yard manager clearly behaves differently to other owners.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

A fight over it? I feel it'd be fine if the YM said they felt your horse was overweight and made some suggestions as to what to do about it perhaps but way out of line to have and arguement over it and surely its not up to them what your horse is fed? Its YOUR horse so they have to feed it what YOU say? Just based on the fact they were dictating how much my horse was fed, I would leave!

I left a yard for this reason. YM was a pain in the ass and tried to dictate feeding foot care etc to DIY liveries. She was even going into fields checking the liveries horses crests then telling us what she thought. I told her my old poor doer didn’t have a crest, never has had, she wasn’t happy and proceeded to tell me that my feeding wasn’t right to switch to the expeaice stuff that my horses wouldn’t eat.

Her favourites got to do what they wanted but the ones she didn’t like for the short end of the stick. There were about 4 of us she didn’t like and gradually we all left

 

[Arzada]

Do you really think that out of everyone on here with horses on other people's land that they are all going through the books ?

It really doesn't matter what we think because it's not illegal to pay and receive cash. In the equine industry it's not just landowners who receive cash from people who keep their horses on others' land. People with horses on their own land pay farriers, dentists, bodyworkers, feed and bedding suppliers etc in cash.

 

[luckyoldme]

It really doesn't matter what we think because it's not illegal to pay and receive cash. In the equine industry it's not just landowners who receive cash from people who keep their horses on others' land. People with horses on their own land pay farriers, dentists, bodyworkers, feed and bedding suppliers etc in cash.

Im not sure why you think that I'm so thick that I don't understand that it's possible to settle bills in cash with a legitimate business.
I've explained the situation quite clearly that this wasn't a legitimate business.
Cash in hand is a term used to describe non declared income.

 

[blitznbobs]

Maybe it's because everyone has to put their horses in one place then be exposed to people they wouldn't normally mix with. Every owner has their own way and the every day care is given in front of an audience.

It's the elephant in the room of the horse world.
It can't really be described as a business if he wasnt declaring it as an income.

It can, it's just a criminal business... tax evasion is a criminal offence but it doesn't make it not a business, just one that might be of interest to HMRC's fraud department.

 

[Cortez]

Cash in hand is a term used to describe non declared income.

I take cash in hand to mean paying in cash, nothing more than that.

 

[luckyoldme]

I take cash in hand to mean paying in cash, nothing more than that.

Ok,
I obviously mix in dodgier circles than you.