Why is there such a disconnect?

[I'm Dun]

This came up on Facebook today and makes for interesting reading.

why do so many scientific studies point to a high prevalence of welfare problems?

It was accompanied by the following text

Very timely review. The authors argue something I have been pondering for years and was reminded again about while watching the equestrian events at the Olympics- the fact that behavioural indicators of poor welfare are largely normalised by the horse industry.
Busy mouths, tense eyes, flat ears, swishy tails, reefing at reins, snorting, shying, foamy mouths, rushing at fences, high head carriages, combined with often extremely severe bits and super tight nosebands. All on display at the Olympics. Yes, there's some sympathetic riding out there by hugely skilled people who genuinely care about their horses. But if you turn the sound off and simply watch the behaviour closely, there's plenty of evidence they aren't "loving" the jobs we give them.
I know I am not going to be popular saying this and there's a lot of things in my past about how I trained and rode horses and the equipment I used that I am not proud of and have now given away, but it is time to get honest about the welfare impacts of what we expect of horses in pursuit of our goals and dreams. Because for sure, no foal wakes up dreaming about going to the Olympics.
We now know so much about welfare including how the types of training stimuli and methods used to gain control of horses impairs their welfare. It is time to do better by these horses.

I didnt watch enough footage to know if thats correct, but its definitely something you see at local and regional level, and something you regularly read about on here.

 

[Wishfilly]

It's an interesting article, but I have to say I feel that it makes a lot of blanket statements about welfare and I felt the article, and especially the comment you've shared have a bit of an agenda.

For example, I am very much not convinced (and I think there is some research to back this up) that bitless is always kinder than bitted riding. The presence of a strong bit (I wouldn't describe anything allowed at the olympics as "extremely severe") doesn't indicate a welfare problem alone. And the lack of a bit doesn't indicate good welfare. It's too symplistic.

I think the top of the sport is moving in the right direction- there was a lot of discussion following the dressage about how much less tense the horses looked and how much more sympathetic the riding was compared to London 2012, for example. It will take time for this to filter down to lower levels, but I do genuinely think things are going in the right direction.

I do think we have to be careful not to mistake signs of tension or anxiety for excitement- there are a lot of people who say their horse e.g. "loves to jump" but when you see the horses it's clearly an adrenaline response which could be excitement or anxiety.

However, I do think all of this is a trade off. Yes, no foal dreams of going to the olympics. But equally, you do feral/moorland ponies (around the world) who are clearly in need of vet treatment, and who even die in harsh weather conditions. And that would likely be the reality for horses if they were not ridden/competed. Many horses need specialist care in order to survive, and the trade off for that is that they have to work, unfortunately. If they had the capacity to choose, I don't know what they'd pick.

 

[palo1]

It's an interesting article, but I have to say I feel that it makes a lot of blanket statements about welfare and I felt the article, and especially the comment you've shared have a bit of an agenda.

For example, I am very much not convinced (and I think there is some research to back this up) that bitless is always kinder than bitted riding. The presence of a strong bit (I wouldn't describe anything allowed at the olympics as "extremely severe") doesn't indicate a welfare problem alone. And the lack of a bit doesn't indicate good welfare. It's too symplistic.

I think the top of the sport is moving in the right direction- there was a lot of discussion following the dressage about how much less tense the horses looked and how much more sympathetic the riding was compared to London 2012, for example. It will take time for this to filter down to lower levels, but I do genuinely think things are going in the right direction.

I do think we have to be careful not to mistake signs of tension or anxiety for excitement- there are a lot of people who say their horse e.g. "loves to jump" but when you see the horses it's clearly an adrenaline response which could be excitement or anxiety.

However, I do think all of this is a trade off. Yes, no foal dreams of going to the olympics. But equally, you do feral/moorland ponies (around the world) who are clearly in need of vet treatment, and who even die in harsh weather conditions. And that would likely be the reality for horses if they were not ridden/competed. Many horses need specialist care in order to survive, and the trade off for that is that they have to work, unfortunately. If they had the capacity to choose, I don't know what they'd pick.

This. It is very, very difficult to magically unpick our co-existence with animals - we have evolved with them for good or bad. In relation to horses we have bred them to have specific attributes of trainability, athleticism etc so they are not 'just' horses in the way that wild equines such as zebras and takhis are nor are they acclimated to a feral lifestyle. We own both sporthorses and feral horses (Welsh hill grazing) and they are truly very different in subtle but quite profound ways. Both are remarkable and have highly desirable characteristics and require very different management and handling. Most of those Olympic horses will have a quite high level of domesticated intelligence and the same sort of desire to 'work' as a border collie or German Shepherd, even whilst they will enjoy and deserve time in the field too. Anyone watching a collie working or a professional dog tracking might also suggest that there are signs of tension, stress and specific welfare implications but for me those signs are more of the animal in a state of heightened concentration, focus and athletic endeavour. I have seen our hill horses pulling all the faces and tension poses perfectly naturally in their daily lives on the hill too!! (At this point I want to say that our hill horses are fed hay in the winter, we check them really regularly, know and respect them individually and a great many of them live to their late 20s although of course that is not universal for feral horses in the UK.) There is quite a lot of research around bitted and bitless riding available with the take-home being that pressure is pressure whether that is on a nose, poll, or elsewhere. Olympic horses probably do have some of the best welfare anywhere tbh.

Whilst I do respect the sentiments of the author and it is valid to question the morality of animals in sport I think this is unjustified clickbait really. I don't want to dismiss it but there are so many more important equine welfare scenarios....

 

[splashgirl45]

i think if this person is concerned about welfare it would be a good idea to start at the bottom. the horses who are transported for days in cramped lorries with brutal treatment when they meet their end,,the thousands of lower end coloured cobs who are overbred and left to starve to death , thats just for a start and what about the american horses who live a life of hell so they move in a certain way. i also dont like the way some top riders manage to get their results but i feel the lower end of the horse population need help first..

 

[Wishfilly]

This. It is very, very difficult to magically unpick our co-existence with animals - we have evolved with them for good or bad. In relation to horses we have bred them to have specific attributes of trainability, athleticism etc so they are not 'just' horses in the way that wild equines such as zebras and takhis are nor are they acclimated to a feral lifestyle. We own both sporthorses and feral horses (Welsh hill grazing) and they are truly very different in subtle but quite profound ways. Both are remarkable and have highly desirable characteristics and require very different management and handling. Most of those Olympic horses will have a quite high level of domesticated intelligence and the same sort of desire to 'work' as a border collie or German Shepherd, even whilst they will enjoy and deserve time in the field too. Anyone watching a collie working or a professional dog tracking might also suggest that there are signs of tension, stress and specific welfare implications but for me those signs are more of the animal in a state of heightened concentration, focus and athletic endeavour. I have seen our hill horses pulling all the faces and tension poses perfectly naturally in their daily lives on the hill too!! (At this point I want to say that our hill horses are fed hay in the winter, we check them really regularly, know and respect them individually and a great many of them live to their late 20s although of course that is not universal for feral horses in the UK.) There is quite a lot of research around bitted and bitless riding available with the take-home being that pressure is pressure whether that is on a nose, poll, or elsewhere. Olympic horses probably do have some of the best welfare anywhere tbh.

Whilst I do respect the sentiments of the author and it is valid to question the morality of animals in sport I think this is unjustified clickbait really. I don't want to dismiss it but there are so many more important equine welfare scenarios....

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that feral horses in the UK especially have universally bad welfare standards, but if you consider the situation worldwide, there are definitely issues, especially around access to veterinary care.

If we consider the five freedoms, which is the basis for animal rights legislation in the UK, I do think it's interesting to compare top competition horses with those who might live a more natural lifestyle. I would say on 3/5 of the freedoms at least, competition horses do better.

 

[piebaldproblems]

I'm no expert, but I've watched a good chunk of the dressage, pretty much all the eventing, and most of the showjumping so far.

There's a lot of depressed animals at the top of the sport. No doubt about it. The Russian dressage riders, one Brazilian cross country, some Japanese show jumpers: and those were the more "visible" examples (e.g. bucking). All the smaller signals, like tail swishing, are seen as completely ordinary. I recall Lucinda Green, during the eventing dressage, commenting on a horse with ears back as "a lot of these eventing horses just don't like dressage, you have to tell them to get on with it" ...

A couple horses did appear to be enjoying themselves, but they were definitely in the minority.

Talking about bits, we had a variety in the showjumping yesterday - everything from gags to an egg butt snaffle. Which shows that there isn't a need for all this metal and harshness. I think the major issue is, physical health aside, many of these horses live way over their mental threshold. No one prepares them for the stress of the journey, the stress of a new environment completely separated from their herd and usual routine, the stress of these major competition venues. So the horses get faster, more uncontrollable, and the rider *has to* use harsher bits.

(And I've not even started on the issue of horses not getting turnout because they're too expensive to be allowed to injure themselves even though there are several studies proving that turnout in the long term reduces problems, both mental and physical...)

Things are improving though - the biggest change appears to be in dressage. But many ideologies have still stuck. E.g. why did all (apart from a couple) showjumpers have flashes and martingales? It's not that it's a 'must', look at Luca Moneta ride. (Luca Moneta is my favourite professional by far. If you look at pictures of his horses being ridden, many of them don't even have that pinch of the eye that's so common in top horses).

I've really enjoyed watching the Olympics this year, but I think a lot of that comes from the competitive aspect. When you're rooting a rider on, or watching with your heart in your mouth "will they make that time", you tend to stop thinking about subtle ways the horse is expressing its pain. That for me is the real tragedy - and I'm speaking from my own experience over these last few days.

 

[piebaldproblems]

At the same time, many 'amateur' horses suffer just as much, with no turnout in the winter, riders laughing at how "my gelding was so strong hunting today, that she almost cut her tongue off fighting against the bit!", the number of horses being treated as 'quirky' rather than in pain, training techniques that rely on learned helplessness, I could go on...

 

[Wishfilly]

Things are improving though - the biggest change appears to be in dressage. But many ideologies have still stuck. E.g. why did all (apart from a couple) showjumpers have flashes and martingales? It's not that it's a 'must', look at Luca Moneta ride. (Luca Moneta is my favourite professional by far. If you look at pictures of his horses being ridden, many of them don't even have that pinch of the eye that's so common in top horses).

I accept the point about flashes, although bear in mind there is research that says grackles may actually be kinder to the horse than a traditional cavesson.

But why do you consider a martingale a welfare issue? I accept it's maybe indicative of a training issue, but I don't believe using a running martingale harms the horse in any way. And if it's not needed, and just there for fashion, then it will have no action.

I do agree that competing in and of itself is stressful for horses- and particularly the travel involved. However, I think a huge number of things we ask horses to do are stressful for them, and indeed "wild" horses will also experience stress. Obviously, we should try to minimise this, but I think when working with a large prey animal, we have to look at "acceptable" stress levels, rather than aiming for no stress?

 

[milliepops]

it's very easy to put all your attention on horses at the top of the sport because they are on the TV performing at the edges of what horses are physically capable of.
I have seen things I feel much more uncomfortable about at the lowest levels of horse sport. I quit volunteering at RC shows because i couldn't stand what I was seeing. we all have to look at ourselves not just point the finger at the top levels and wait for Carl and Charlotte's example to "filter down". it doesn't filter down to people who aren't interested anyway

 

[milliepops]

BTW i do totally agree with the thing in the article challenging the stereotypes like mares are moody and stallions are difficult etc, that is lazy thinking and i think some people take it as gospel and treat the horses in that way. becomes a self fulfilling prophesy then. i have absolutely no idea how to change that other than to keep pointing out that it's not that simple at every possible opportunity!

 

[I'm Dun]

it's very easy to put all your attention on horses at the top of the sport because they are on the TV performing at the edges of what horses are physically capable of.
I have seen things I feel much more uncomfortable about at the lowest levels of horse sport. I quit volunteering at RC shows because i couldn't stand what I was seeing. we all have to look at ourselves not just point the finger at the top levels and wait for Carl and Charlotte's example to "filter down". it doesn't filter down to people who aren't interested anyway

I think its actually much worse at lower levels sadly. There seem to be unhappy horses everywhere and people either dont know or dont care.

 

[milliepops]

I think its actually much worse at lower levels sadly. There seem to be unhappy horses everywhere and people either dont know or dont care.

well, yeah, it's a difficult thing to talk about because I am sure the people who made me wince genuinely loved their horses and would probably say they were well cared for/they were doing their best etc, and i don't want to come across like some holier than thou person.. i know i've got things wrong in the past too, we all do. the important thing is to reflect on that as objectively as you can and work out what to change or be thoughtful about what it's fair to ask of a horse while you are learning etc.

but for me lame horses, riders acting in temper etc can't be tolerated, I don't know what the point of an affiliated RC is if that kind of thing is not challenged. I got totally disillusioned and retreated into a bubble where that kind of stuff is thankfully pretty rare.

 

[Wishfilly]

it's very easy to put all your attention on horses at the top of the sport because they are on the TV performing at the edges of what horses are physically capable of.
I have seen things I feel much more uncomfortable about at the lowest levels of horse sport. I quit volunteering at RC shows because i couldn't stand what I was seeing. we all have to look at ourselves not just point the finger at the top levels and wait for Carl and Charlotte's example to "filter down". it doesn't filter down to people who aren't interested anyway

This is a really valid point- there are definitely people out there who do things in a certain way because it's "what they have always done", and this may, in some cases lead to them e.g. ignoring health issues etc.

It does bother me that anyone with no prior knowledge can go and buy a horse (or any other pet) in the UK and keep it however they want with very little recourse. Moving away from horses, it has always bothered me that you need to go via an ethics committee to keep a rat alone in a lab for more than 24 hours, as it is considered so psychologically damaging BUT anyone can go and buy one from a pet shop and keep it alone for it's entire life.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Speaking personally, I think what is really hard is the huge differences between instructors/trainers. It’s easy enough to say that if a trainer’s methods make you feel uncomfortable then ditch that trainer. But I’ve been at Mark Rashad clinics where people have walked out and one rider at a clinic just refused to use contact at all. He was trying to explain that he wanted to be soft but you couldn’t be ineffective/passive. And the horse was choosing the level of the pressure. But the rider just didn’t like it and that was that really. I doubt you can get many trainers more sympathetic to horses and aware of their needs than Mark.

So I don’t think I can assume I’m right if I don’t like what’s happening. It could just be a gap in my understanding.

But I frequently don’t like what is happening with trainers and I struggle to work out if I just don’t understand or if I should not be compromising my principles and move on from them. Which is hard if it’s someone I like and get results with.

 

[palo1]

This is such a valid point (and rats are one of my favourite topics for any discussion of animal welfare lol!) Anyone can buy a dog, cat, reptile, horse, whatever without any prior knowledge or experience and carry on how they wish with no intervention until things are really dire - and often not even then. There are, sadly, so many ways in which the very best of intentions can lead to welfare issues; keeping horses alone, dogs that can't run free due to training or management issues and so on. A great many of these issues are really difficult to tackle whilst we have animals at our convenience and for our benefit. Thinking about it can be overwhelming to be honest.

 

[milliepops]

Speaking personally, I think what is really hard is the huge differences between instructors/trainers. It’s easy enough to say that if a trainer’s methods make you feel uncomfortable then ditch that trainer. But I’ve been at Mark Rashad clinics where people have walked out and one rider at a clinic just refused to use contact at all. He was trying to explain that he wanted to be soft but you couldn’t be ineffective/passive. And the horse was choosing the level of the pressure. But the rider just didn’t like it and that was that really. I doubt you can get many trainers more sympathetic to horses and aware of their needs than Mark.

So I don’t think I can assume I’m right if I don’t like what’s happening. It could just be a gap in my understanding.

But I frequently don’t like what is happening with trainers and I struggle to work out if I just don’t understand or if I should not be compromising my principles and move on from them. Which is hard if it’s someone I like and get results with.

there should be some absolutes, if a horse is visibly lame then any trainer should spot that. (they don't)
if a rider has lost control of their temper, they should be stopped (they aren't)

the balance of whether you think it's acceptable to put pressure on a horse etc is much more of a grey area though, i agree.
I have been in lessons where I've hit my threshold and said I'm not prepared to do that as the horse is becoming distressed, and left and never gone back.

I have been in others where i've thought, this is a bit borderliney and that's more difficult, on the one hand I want to protect my horse's welfare and on the other hand i accept that sometimes in order to progress in training you have to put a degree of pressure on to challenge a horse to try something different. I don't believe you can ever get away from that. i think it's harder in a one-off lesson and for that reason i like having someone I've trained with for years because I understand the way he thinks and trains and he also understands my horse and knows what her boundaries are. then there's a high degree of trust that OK, i might think something feels uncomfortable but he is seeing something that I'm not about how the horse is responding.

but at no time is a loss of control ever a concern, i think that's why i get most uncomfortable - I have worked really hard over the years to never let my emotions rule my actions around horses. never act in anger or out of frustration etc, and that's the line in the sand for me i think because that's often where stuff tips over from being challenging to the horse in a fair way, to being totally unreasonable.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I left a trainer everyone in my yard raves about because she lost control. Toby wouldn’t bend and she grabbed him and spun him round her, jabbing him in the ribs, far too fast for him to process and with clear frustration vibes. That was an easy decision. But a grey area for me is when trainers say things like ‘he’s taking the mick’ or ‘that was naughty. Get hold of him and tell him to bloody get on with it’ when I know the issue was my line or my commitment. I teach a little girl for confidence who also has SJ lesson with another trainer. With me after any run out she can say ‘that was me I bottled it’. It’s not always easy to see but she can clearly feel it when she freezes on the approach. So we make the jump look better to her and get her riding better again and only go back up when she is positive. Then I see her in other lessons and she is being told her pony is cheeky, naughty and she needs to ‘give him a bloody good kick’. She’s tiny and her kicks barely register but it’s a mentality she is teaching that I hate. But I really like her teaching most of the time. And so so many trainers blame the horse more than they should imo

 

[milliepops]

I left a trainer everyone in my yard raves about because she lost control. Toby wouldn’t bend and she grabbed him and spun him round her, jabbing him in the ribs, far too fast for him to process and with clear frustration vibes. That was an easy decision. But a grey area for me is when trainers say things like ‘he’s taking the mick’ or ‘that was naughty. Get hold of him and tell him to bloody get on with it’ when I know the issue was my line or my commitment. I teach a little girl for confidence who also has SJ lesson with another trainer. With me after any run out she can say ‘that was me I bottled it’. It’s not always easy to see but she can clearly feel it when she freezes on the approach. So we make the jump look better to her and get her riding better again and only go back up when she is positive. Then I see her in other lessons and she is being told her pony is cheeky, naughty and she needs to ‘give him a bloody good kick’. She’s tiny and her kicks barely register but it’s a mentality she is teaching that I hate. But I really like her teaching most of the time. And so so many trainers blame the horse more than they should imo

i don't think I've come across that personally, but for me that links back to the lazy thinking about mares being moody etc, I don't think horses take the P, i think sometimes riders don't make it clear enough or the horse might not fully understand or might have been presented to something poorly etc, i think 99% of the time horses are on a continuum of more or less generous, but that's very different to being naughty or deliberately peeing about.

i wouldn't go to lessons with anyone who talked in those terms :/ it's leading riders to think in the same way, and thinking your horse does stuff to wind you up on purpose is the first step to being unable to think rationally when you're on a horse IMO.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think she is trying to build her confidence by saying her pony is naughty but a) it’s unfair on the pony and b) she feels better and rides much better knowing she has a generous but slightly anxious pony who needs her to be sure about the jump if he’s going to jump it. Her thinking about ‘holding his hand over the jump’ really helps her feel responsible for getting them both over. I agree it’s lazy thinking and teaches kids to view ponies as adversaries not partners.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Double post

 

[paddi22]

I recall Lucinda Green, during the eventing dressage, commenting on a horse with ears back as "a lot of these eventing horses just don't like dressage, you have to tell them to get on with it" ...

Recently I've started to reconsider the theory of jumping horses after a trainer was surprised I didn't punish a horse for refusing a jump in a clinic

My thoughts are horses either refuse because
- they have been brought in incorrectly at the wrong speed, balance or stride and they aren't confident they can do it safely
- they have a physical issue which causes pain when jumping
- they just don't like the challenge of jumping in general, they just don't enjoy it
- there is something about the fence they are unsure of
- they are lazy and know they can disregard the rider and evade jumping
- they are overfaced height wise

I just think they aren't robots. My horses love jumping and we don't often have refusals, but when we do I totally respect their opinion on not jumping it. If it's a green horse that needs encouragement and to be brought back to fence repeatedly until it's confident to go over it, that's one thing - but to punish a horse severely for not jumping is totally another.

 

[Birker2020]

Having owned a horse who always had her ears forward when being ridden/led and it was very unusual to see her with her ears back (don't think I have one single photo of her ears backwards over a jump) it really surprises and dismays me that almost without exception every video I've been sent of a horse for sale have been with them with their ears back constantly or at least 3/4 of the time. Most of these are accompanied by tail swishing or open mouths.

And one horse was very lame on a video, another was bouncing with its hind legs in canter constantly, another nearly went flying at the start of the video, and many when landing after a fence curl up and then rush forwards or land on the wrong lead, or swap leads in canter in between fences.

It really makes me query are the owners of these horses actually blind? Or are they burying their heads in the sand in the hope for a quick sale given todays current market?

 

[milliepops]

Recently I've started to reconsider the theory of jumping horses after a trainer was surprised I didn't punish a horse for refusing a jump in a clinic

My thoughts are horses either refuse because
- they have been brought in incorrectly at the wrong speed, balance or stride and they aren't confident they can do it safely
- they have a physical issue which causes pain when jumping
- they just don't like the challenge of jumping in general, they just don't enjoy it
- there is something about the fence they are unsure of
- they are lazy and know they can disregard the rider and evade jumping
- they are overfaced height wise

I just think they aren't robots. My horses love jumping and we don't often have refusals, but when we do I totally respect their opinion on not jumping it. If it's a green horse that needs encouragement and to be brought back to fence repeatedly until it's confident to go over it, that's one thing - but to punish a horse severely for not jumping is totally another.

and many of those things also apply on the flat. my horse will miss a flying change if I don't prepare or aid her properly
she will nap in collection if I've overfaced her
and so on.



I don't particularly bother about where the ears are pointing, that tends to be dependent on where the horse's attention is and sometimes that will not be what is out in front of it. i think horses are more usefully expressive with the rest of their faces and their behaviour.

 

[paddi22]

Having owned a horse who always had her ears forward when being ridden/led and it was very unusual to see her with her ears back (don't think I have one single photo of her ears backwards over a jump) it really surprises and dismays me that almost without exception every video I've been sent of a horse for sale have been with them with their ears back constantly or at least 3/4 of the time.

It makes me worried.

Yeah I hate that too. My proudest thing in my riding is that my horses love their job and you can see it in photos. There is an expectation that a horse should just automatically do what it's owner wants, with no regard to the horses enjoyment or mental/physcial ability for it. All my jumpers love jumping, but I've other horses that just don't enjoy it, so I potter the odd time on them, but I don't expect them to do it as a job, playing to their strengths is better and giving them a job they enjoy. you can tell so much in photos if a horse Is happy in its job. Totally agree on the point on the ears back in dressage, all mine do that when they are concentrating. I know their attention is wandering when they pop forward!

so much of riding is a conversation with he horse and surely their opinions are worth listening to?

 

[bonnysmum]

Quick question here, no hijack intended because I could (and probably will) make a whole other thread about this. As a new horse owner, what resources would people recommend to really learn about horse body language and welfare? I am getting lots of advice, some of it conflicting, some of it advice that I'm unsure about which is recognisable in comments here, but this is all from people who know my horse whereas I am just getting to know her. TIA.

 

[Wishfilly]

I agree with what a lot of people have said about blaming the horse- I don't think horses ever try to be naughty or outsmart us. If we aren't doing what we want there is a reason (usually paid, discomfort, or they haven't understood what they are being told to do).

I agree fwiw that ears aren't always a brilliant indicator of how the horse is feeling about a particular activity, and I do think some people who insist their horse "loves XC" or whatever are mistaking an adrenaline response for excitement and pleasure. Not anyone on this thread specifically, but just people in general.

On a much lower level, when I first bought my pony and took him hacking alone, people used to comment on him looking so eager and excited to be out and about. Now he has chilled out a lot, I can see that actually he was on high alert at all times, and probably quite stressed- but he looked happy and excited to a lot of people (I knew he was tense, but didn't realise how tense).

I do think a lot of low level owners are really ignorant- as in don't know basic facts, can't recognise lameness, can't recognise a badly fitting saddle etc etc. And they have been brought up in the philosophy of believing the horse is naughty and wants to get out of doing work, and all the rest of it.

And, of course, there are pros who will make money out of an uncomfortable horse if they think they can.

 

[Birker2020]

I agree fwiw that ears aren't always a brilliant indicator of how the horse is feeling about a particular activity, and I do think some people who insist their horse "loves XC" or whatever are mistaking an adrenaline response for excitement and pleasure. Not anyone on this thread specifically, but just people in general.

Interesting point Wishfilly. Agree with this to an extent but when its leading from the washbox to stable or stable to paddock or having shoes put on and a horses ears are always forward in these activities that suggests to me that the horse is generally happy and nothing to do with adrenalin. A horse in pain will find ways to avoid activities and I know that adrenalin covers a lot of things (most of us have seen the racehorse photo with it still galloping ears forwards with the broken leg stuck out at an obscene angle) but not all horses have loads of adrenalin coursing through them when they jump a track or ride a dressage test as an example. Depends if they find it 'exciting' or just 'mundane' I guess. And like I say the vast majority of the videos I've been sent are of horses clearly struggling with ears pinned back when landing after a fence for example.

When I do my spin class there's no adrenalin going through me but I still enjoy it..................if I had tall ears they would deffo be forward.

Don't get me wrong, with my own horse, there were occasions when there was tail swishing and ears back, swapping hind legs all the time, etc, etc but that instantly got me thinking 'vet assistance needed' especially if she would start stopping at fences she had previously jumped.

Maybe mine was a bit weird as even on the lunge for the vet assessment at the vets she'd be going around 3/5 lame and she'd still have her ears forward!

 

[TPO]

Quick question here, no hijack intended because I could (and probably will) make a whole other thread about this. As a new horse owner, what resources would people recommend to really learn about horse body language and welfare? I am getting lots of advice, some of it conflicting, some of it advice that I'm unsure about which is recognisable in comments here, but this is all from people who know my horse whereas I am just getting to know her. TIA.

I really rate the Susan McBane "100 ways to" series of books.

100 ways to improve your horses behaviour

100 ways to build a perfect equine partnership

100 ways to improve your horses health

(There is also 100 ways to improve your riding and 100 ways to improve your schooling but highly recommend first 3 in answer to your question.)

The books are usually a few pounds each 2nd hand from ebay or amazon.

For me they highlight lots of little things that good, experienced horse owners do without thinking so those nuggets often don't get passed on.

The books are written in a very accessible style with accompanying photographs.

There's another Susan McBane book that should help with your question too but the title escapes me. I'll just do a wee Google... ah, the other book was How your horse works but its currently £68 on amazon. It might be cheaper in ebay or book depository/World of books.

I put Susan McBane into the amazon search and it brought up a lot of her books that I'd forgotten about. A few of them might be a bit outdated but overall I'd highly recommend anything by her. She puts the horse and their welfare first and her books are more accessible than some of the more in depth books.

To dive a bit deeper to learn about horses behaviour/minds then Lucy Rees books are a good place to start.

 

[Birker2020]

I really rate the Susan McBane "100 ways to" series of books.

100 ways to improve your horses behaviour

100 ways to build a perfect equine partnership

100 ways to improve your horses health

(There is also 100 ways to improve your riding and 100 ways to improve your schooling but highly recommend first 3 in answer to your question.)

The books are usually a few pounds each 2nd hand from ebay or amazon.

For me they highlight lots of little things that good, experienced horse owners do without thinking so those nuggets often don't get passed on.

The books are written in a very accessible style with accompanying photographs.

There's another Susan McBane book that should help with your question too but the title escapes me. I'll just do a wee Google... ah, the other book was How your horse works but its currently £68 on amazon. It might be cheaper in ebay or book depository/World of books.

I put Susan McBane into the amazon search and it brought up a lot of her books that I'd forgotten about. A few of them might be a bit outdated but overall I'd highly recommend anything by her. She puts the horse and their welfare first and her books are more accessible than some of the more in depth books.

To dive a bit deeper to learn about horses behaviour/minds then Lucy Rees books are a good place to start.

If you had access to a Kindle Fire OP you would find a lot of the books that TPO has mentioned.
Or ask a friend if you can borrow one. Amazon have a huge array of books and quite a few horsey things.

The most interesting books I have ever read on the subject of horses was Margrit Coates I think its called Horses Talking. Amazing case studies from a horse whisperer..................

 

[SibeliusMB]

If anyone is looking for good YouTube watching, I quite like what Warrick Schiller does. His techniques are all great, and lately he's gotten into a lot of fascinating discussion about horse behavior that's worth considering. Thought-provoking.