Why is there such a disconnect?

[palo1]

I agree with what a lot of people have said about blaming the horse- I don't think horses ever try to be naughty or outsmart us. If we aren't doing what we want there is a reason (usually paid, discomfort, or they haven't understood what they are being told to do).

I agree fwiw that ears aren't always a brilliant indicator of how the horse is feeling about a particular activity, and I do think some people who insist their horse "loves XC" or whatever are mistaking an adrenaline response for excitement and pleasure. Not anyone on this thread specifically, but just people in general.

On a much lower level, when I first bought my pony and took him hacking alone, people used to comment on him looking so eager and excited to be out and about. Now he has chilled out a lot, I can see that actually he was on high alert at all times, and probably quite stressed- but he looked happy and excited to a lot of people (I knew he was tense, but didn't realise how tense).

I do think a lot of low level owners are really ignorant- as in don't know basic facts, can't recognise lameness, can't recognise a badly fitting saddle etc etc. And they have been brought up in the philosophy of believing the horse is naughty and wants to get out of doing work, and all the rest of it.

And, of course, there are pros who will make money out of an uncomfortable horse if they think they can.

I do think that the anthropomorphism around animals in our culture is one of the most damaging things; it is dire how easy and acceptable it is for us to project entirely human experiences, emotions, motivations etc onto other species and seeing people do that in anything other than an entirely knowing sense makes my blood run cold. It seems, as well as potentially harmful, so incredibly disrespectful to animals which have entirely their own experience of the world and which it should be a privelage for us to try to understand and appreciate. But that kind of knowledge is pretty hard won and challenges so many of our cultural 'norms' that it has to be a sort of mental exercise to remember that you are interacting with/engaging with something that does NOT share your own world view and whose experiences are most definately 'other'. I think that should form the basis of any kind of interaction with animals and our responsibility as animal keepers should primarily be to try to work with what we know and understand of that animal and it's experience/wants/needs. The best trainers etc are able to do that but there is a huge majority of people working with and keeping animals for whom that is a long, long way away.

 

[honetpot]

I have seen someone who would consider themselves a high level professional rider, lose it. I think at some point they think they can make a horse do anything, to back down and say, either it's not today or let's find another way, is not just the horse 'winning', but a huge dent to their ego, because to compete at the top level you must have a high level of self belief. You got to that level by doing those things, so it must be OK.
Some horses seem to stand what I call, mindless hammering, if this is because they have become so disheartened, disengaged, helpless, its perhaps easier just to switch off, than kick out and give them both barrels, I do not know. You see it on some yards they pound them around in circles, with the latest gadget, not really understanding how it works or what they are trying to achieve. If you told these handlers they were being abusive, it's what they have been taught, or it's for the animal's good.
Most horse are looking for a safe, consistent life, eat sleep repeat. Us messing with them gets in the way, but most of the time though habituation, and the reward is being fed and safe ,they comply.
I have heard and seen, as a child, some abusive things, I can not remember them working. The dealer I rode for used to get a lot of rejects, and someone would try and 'sort them', it never worked, because the person trying to do the sorting had no competence of any sort. The only 'positive' about this, was it didn't go on for long, whereas the institutional abuse can go on for years, with knowing what they see as care is gradually grinding the horse down.
I have an old pony I sold as a three year, and bought back. As a three year old he had the manners of Hugh Grant, he loaded and went to shows handled buy a novice child, and was simple to back by us. I bought him back because I had seen him advertised three times in two years. He is now food aggressive, he has had laminitis, and I know some of his previous owners were frightened of him, he is now worried you are going to hurt him if you go near his mane. He can be handled and ridden by a novice child and can cope, because there is no pressure. His pasture mate seeks your company, he does not, he now tolerates it, I find it really sad because he was such a lovely happy young pony. He has been too expensive a pony never to have been cared for, it's just been misguided care.

 

[Pippin and Poppy]

Quick question here, no hijack intended because I could (and probably will) make a whole other thread about this. As a new horse owner, what resources would people recommend to really learn about horse body language and welfare? I am getting lots of advice, some of it conflicting, some of it advice that I'm unsure about which is recognisable in comments here, but this is all from people who know my horse whereas I am just getting to know her. TIA.

Lucky horse that you care and are prepared to research!
I like to get as many opinions/ideas as possible (mostly via the internet - and opinions will conflict) then use what suits my situation and what I feel comfortable with.
I was deeply touched by Klaus Hempfling's book 'Dancing With Horses'.

If anyone is looking for good YouTube watching, I quite like what Warrick Schiller does. His techniques are all great, and lately he's gotten into a lot of fascinating discussion about horse behavior that's worth considering. Thought-provoking.

Warwick is very down to earth and I have used many of his ideas. He also shares his evolution and will modify his techniques. I agree he is well worth a look, particularly his more recent videos. I love his concept of '10 year old girl training' which simply amounts to spending time with your horse not asking for anything, just being with and building a bond!

Re the thread - Animals are being exploited all around us. Where do you draw the line? The meat on our plates, the pets in our homes, the animals we distort for our goals/preferences....

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Recently I've started to reconsider the theory of jumping horses after a trainer was surprised I didn't punish a horse for refusing a jump in a clinic

My thoughts are horses either refuse because
- they have been brought in incorrectly at the wrong speed, balance or stride and they aren't confident they can do it safely
- they have a physical issue which causes pain when jumping
- they just don't like the challenge of jumping in general, they just don't enjoy it
- there is something about the fence they are unsure of
- they are lazy and know they can disregard the rider and evade jumping
- they are overfaced height wise

I just think they aren't robots. My horses love jumping and we don't often have refusals, but when we do I totally respect their opinion on not jumping it. If it's a green horse that needs encouragement and to be brought back to fence repeatedly until it's confident to go over it, that's one thing - but to punish a horse severely for not jumping is totally another.

Tik Maynard does a master class on why horses refuse and how to help them gain confidence and willingness. And I far prefer that thoughtful approach. It’s on Noelle Floyd ‘S website if anyone is interested. I never punish a horse for not jumping even if it chucks inn’dirty stops’. If a horse doesn’t like jumping, me walloping it is hardly going to help. I recently heard a trainer say ‘the horse needs to be more scared of you than the jump’. Arghhhhh

 

[TPO]

In reply to OP this is a topic I can discuss for hours, days, weeks.... mainly because I don't understand it and as per OP want to know the definitive answer.

At the crux I think that horses (all animals) are too easily gotten and the people are lazier/more self serving.

"Back in the day" there wasn't as much disposable money as there is now to own, let alone compete, a horse. Pre covid an "average" horse was affordable for someone on an average wage and cheaper "project" horses were ten a penny.

The cost of keeping a horse is also relatively cheap. I was fortunate to keep my horses with family and family friends when growing up so I was 22 before I went onto a livery yard. 16yrs ago DIY prices were circa £15-20pw grass livery and £25-35pw stabled DIY and those prices haven't really increased. It is possible to keep a horse for cheaper than an hour riding lesson. On paper owning appears cheaper and better value for money.

Then back to "easily gotten" is that it seems that we live in a "I want, I get" time. Through my rose tinted glasses "back in the day" if you weren't born into a horsey family, and sometimes even if you were, you almost served an apprenticeship learning as the free labour at the local Riding school or helping anyone with horses who would let you be near them. You grafted and just loved every minute around horses absorbing what you could in the process.

Nowadays a horse seems to be a consideration after a handful of lessons. In my early 20s I had a weekend job at a saddlery and I had those exact customers. Quite frankly it was terrifying. I also knew the local yards and these people always valued cheap and at cheap yard there usually weren't high/good/any standards. So from the off these new owners have a very low level of acceptable for their baseline of normal.

Again I can only speak from my experience and POV but the majority of horse owners that I've met on my (many!) livery yards don't seem to have any passion for it.

I think I arrived on this planet horse mad. From young age I'd devour anything even slightly horse related and spent hours doing anything in all weather's to be in sniffing distance of them. Even when we got a family pony I was still as daft to around anyone else and their horse. I would happily muck out, groom or clean tack for anyone.

I liked reading anyway but I was obsessed with horse books; collected as many as I could and was always at the library. Obsessed isn't a strong enough word when it comes to my feelings about the TV series "If wishes were horses". My official VHS tapes were worn done! Any money I had went on Saddle Club books and Pony/Horse & Pony magazines. I got a job at 13 and paid for my own lessons at Pony Club. I was only in PC because I had a friend who went and let me share a lift (paid petrol money) and I got my PC membership, tie and manual as a joint birthday and Christmas present.

So I've been on yards where there have been kinds from like 10-16 & they just don't seem to care. They like the jumping and fast work but have zero interest in care or learning. A book is a foreign concept and as for just sitting watching how horses behave or even auditing at a clinic or watching a warm up ring is a ridiculous concept.

I do accept that is a sweeping generalisation based solely on my experiences. There are undoubtedly "children of" on the forum that do not resemble that description. I also acknowledge that I was a horse obsessed geek so the other end of the spectrum but even still I'm surprised at the lack of a holistic take there is on loving horses.

As for adults I've liveried beside loads who "love" their horses but their actions do not reflect that. Ignorance is rife as there is a whole mindset that they "know enough" and have no interest in learning more.

Laziness is another contributing factor. People keep horses around what suits their schedule over. I've seen people bring horses in with ONE section of hay before 4pm and not come back until after 2pm the next day without arranging cover or help.

There's been a whole plethora of lame horses, sore horses, ill horses, under and overweight horses, badly fitting tack, unfit horses asked to do stuff beyond their ability and are picked up and dropped on a whim. I can give multiple real life examples for each and yet every one of the people involved would say that they love their horse.

Ironically the yards I've been on that have had horsey/horse owning YOs have been through worst in regards to turning a blind eye and permitting neglect. One such YO's excuse was that worse happens to the horses in Egypt. Somehow that made the neglect and abuse on her yard OK.

So IMO the disconnect comes from people buying horses without enough knowledge or experience, lack of standards on yards and the reluctance to accept that learning is an ongoing, and sometimes hard, process.

We've all made mistakes. You can only do your best until you know how to do better.

I do think it's a really difficult topic to get to the root of and even harder to find a workable solution.

 

[SibeliusMB]

As for adults I've liveried beside loads who "love" their horses but their actions do not reflect that. Ignorance is rife as there is a whole mindset that they "know enough" and have no interest in learning more.

“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you’re right, but not enough to know you’re wrong.” (Neil deGrasse Tyson)

 

[bonnysmum]

Then back to "easily gotten" is that it seems that we live in a "I want, I get" time. Through my rose tinted glasses "back in the day" if you weren't born into a horsey family, and sometimes even if you were, you almost served an apprenticeship learning as the free labour at the local Riding school or helping anyone with horses who would let you be near them. You grafted and just loved every minute around horses absorbing what you could in the process.

I'm so incredibly conscious that my situation chimes with TPO's post here. Buying a horse for a child who's been riding for a year sounds like complete madness and total indulgence, right? Except I think other things have changed now too. My experience (and I admit this is just me, and I'm a cowardy custard in terms of not wanting to take advantage of people) is that other people don't want a child helping with their horses these days. They're either afraid of liability should the child get hurt, or too busy to spend the time teaching them what to do, or just uninterested. We're lucky that our yard does have kids in volunteering but I gather a lot don't, again I guess it's a liability thing. So for the child who is desperate to spend every waking hour with horses and is constantly let down by people she trusts, or not allowed to do anything except give a horse a pat and a groom, what's the answer? (I guess one answer is to live somewhere more populated...)

PS My daughter is going to be volunteering at the yard too, in the hope that when she's old enough she can get some paid work to help keep her horse!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Love TPO’s post. I think there is a real difference between people who ‘love’ their horses in a ‘he’s so cute when he snuffles my hair’ way, people who love riding horses and people who genuinely love learning about and understanding horses.

I don’t think things were better in the past though. I was always hungry to learn but my early horsey influences taught me that horses were basically lazy, naughty, evasive and needed a firm hand. On no account must they ‘win’. They needed ‘breaking in’ which involved blood, sweat and tears.

The ponies at the riding school were either utterly dead to the leg or regularly ‘went psycho’. All the kids wanted to ride the ‘psycho’ ones and it was a mark of achievement to survive a ‘psycho’ moment in a lesson. We admired kids who could ride the wilder ponies more than anything. Horsemanship meant sticking on when things went wrong.

This was back in the 70s and 80s. I bought my first horse in the 90s as an adult and was in a BHS yard where the yard manager got on horses who were misbehaving and thrashed them. I didn’t like it but assumed everywhere was like that. I never allowed my horse to be hit but I really didn’t have an alternative way of dealing with problems. Luckily my horse never presented me with any.

It was in that environment that I first discovered Mark Rashid’s books and found a new way to think about horses and riding. Up till then the idea of a true partnership rather than a dominance/submission relationship was totally alien to me.

I think people who happened to be lucky enough to grow up with wise horsey mentors are in the minority. They were rare when I grew up and are rare now.

I have had to muddle along more or less on my own all my horsey life. I’m yet to meet a wise horsey mentor! My current YO is experienced but harsh with horses. My old YO was similar - less harsh perhaps but definitely quick with a stick and very uninterested in newer, kinder methods. Both are very quick to use harsher bits, pinch boots, gadgets and quick fixes if problems arise. My vet, trainers and YO were ALL happy for me to continue riding Scarlett despite her being bilaterally lame. I just couldn’t though.

My old YO also thought I was mad when I first backed a horse who was barely handled when I got her and I did most of the preparation with her unrestrained in a large field so she could walk away if she wasn’t happy.

I wouldn’t do that now but at the time I was proving a point to myself.

I continue to struggle to find a path that allows me to improve and compete that also fits my ideals of wanting a partnership not a dictatorship. I believe Amber was and Dolly is happy in their work but how would I know really? I’m as capable of kidding myself and seeing what I want to see as the next person. Scarlett seemed happy too but was lame.

I don’t know what the answer is but the issue of ignorance and wishful or self serving thinking isn’t new I don’t think.

 

[palo1]

Love TPO’s post. I think there is a real difference between people who ‘love’ their horses in a ‘he’s so cute when he snuffles my hair’ way, people who love riding horses and people who genuinely love learning about and understanding horses.

I don’t think things were better in the past though. I was always hungry to learn but my early horsey influences taught me that horses were basically lazy, naughty, evasive and needed a firm hand. On no account must they ‘win’. They needed ‘breaking in’ which involved blood, sweat and tears.

The ponies at the riding school were either utterly dead to the leg or regularly ‘went psycho’. All the kids wanted to ride the ‘psycho’ ones and it was a mark of achievement to survive a ‘psycho’ moment in a lesson. We admired kids who could ride the wilder ponies more than anything. Horsemanship meant sticking on when things went wrong.

This was back in the 70s and 80s. I bought my first horse in the 90s as an adult and was in a BHS yard where the yard manager got on horses who were misbehaving and thrashed them. I didn’t like it but assumed everywhere was like that. I never allowed my horse to be hit but I really didn’t have an alternative way of dealing with problems. Luckily my horse never presented me with any.

It was in that environment that I first discovered Mark Rashid’s books and found a new way to think about horses and riding. Up till then the idea of a true partnership rather than a dominance/submission relationship was totally alien to me.

I think people who happened to be lucky enough to grow up with wise horsey mentors are in the minority. They were rare when I grew up and are rare now.

I have had to muddle along more or less on my own all my horsey life. I’m yet to meet a wise horsey mentor! My current YO is experienced but harsh with horses. My old YO was similar - less harsh perhaps but definitely quick with a stick and very uninterested in newer, kinder methods. Both are very quick to use harsher bits, pinch boots, gadgets and quick fixes if problems arise. My vet, trainers and YO were ALL happy for me to continue riding Scarlett despite her being bilaterally lame. I just couldn’t though.

My old YO also thought I was mad when I first backed a horse who was barely handled when I got her and I did most of the preparation with her unrestrained in a large field so she could walk away if she wasn’t happy.

I wouldn’t do that now but at the time I was proving a point to myself.

I continue to struggle to find a path that allows me to improve and compete that also fits my ideals of wanting a partnership not a dictatorship. I believe Amber was and Dolly is happy in their work but how would I know really? I’m as capable of kidding myself and seeing what I want to see as the next person. Scarlett seemed happy too but was lame.

I don’t know what the answer is but the issue of ignorance and wishful or self serving thinking isn’t new I don’t think.

It is sad that you haven't found an inspiring horsey mentor yet AE. I have had several mentors - 1 was dire; cruel, dominant and brutally self-serving but taught certain actual skills related to position, the need for sympathetic hands (yes, in spite of his temper and dominance issues, he recognised the need for that!!) and a couple of other things. 3 others have been, thankfully, remarkable and entirely sympathetic to the horse. A classical teacher that I happened on who taught more about 'riding' skills and the utmost important of respect for the horse and it's biomechanics and 2 others whose influence has all been about the mental and emotional aspects of riding. I am grateful even for the first mentor who displayed the polar opposite of my 'dream' of a partnership with horses but gave me so many opportunities to ride, pretty much unsupervised, to learn about breeding, about physical courage (he had that going for him too!) and to never assume that you cannot ride a horse. Other cultural influences have been hugely helpful and I think that is something that is pretty much totally overlooked in the UK. We have a huge amount we can learn from other horse cultures and that can also help when we are struggling to work within a particular 'system'. I wish that mentoring was more of a thing here really; it can make so much difference in so many ways.

TPO's post is spot on too

ETA - when I say 'never assume that you cannot ride a horse I mean that I learnt to trust that I would have the courage and skill to work with the sort of horses that might, ordinarily be intimidating (not that every horse was rideable!! This mentor recognised that some horses were essentially 'wrong' and were not ok to be ridden which I think was probably better than some folk around at that time who would assume those horses were 'bad'/wicked/lazy etc.

 

[Renvers]

I recall Lucinda Green, during the eventing dressage, commenting on a horse with ears back as "a lot of these eventing horses just don't like dressage, you have to tell them to get on with it" ...

The same could be said of some of the riders! ( I base this on friends who event to a decent standard for whom the Dressage seems a necessary evil).

OP, I think any discussions on this are welcome, obviously not all views are going to be universally agreed with and I agree with some of those who say this article probably asserts one view to the exclusion of others, but this Olympics seems to have been better for the condition and care of the horses. And the more happy horses win the medals maybe more riders will see it as essential for success.

 

[teddypops]

Recently I've started to reconsider the theory of jumping horses after a trainer was surprised I didn't punish a horse for refusing a jump in a clinic

My thoughts are horses either refuse because
- they have been brought in incorrectly at the wrong speed, balance or stride and they aren't confident they can do it safely
- they have a physical issue which causes pain when jumping
- they just don't like the challenge of jumping in general, they just don't enjoy it
- there is something about the fence they are unsure of
- they are lazy and know they can disregard the rider and evade jumping
- they are overfaced height wise

I just think they aren't robots. My horses love jumping and we don't often have refusals, but when we do I totally respect their opinion on not jumping it. If it's a green horse that needs encouragement and to be brought back to fence repeatedly until it's confident to go over it, that's one thing - but to punish a horse severely for not jumping is totally another.

I agree. My sec D is a very good jumper but she really looks after me and will stop if she feels I’m not sure about it. I have stopped going to clinics with a very well thought of instructor who wanted me to wallop her for being naughty. He wasn’t impressed when I said no because it was actually my fault.

 

[Chappie]

This thread is very interesting to read - TPO I recognise a lot of things from your post - unfortunately. Thank you for mentioning the books - I love reading and have so many books, it's getting the time to sit and read that's the problem! I hardly even have time to read the forum these days. I did just go and order some of the Susan McBane books that I don't have though! I'm in a rut and really want to learn new things.

I so wish that reading was more popular - even if it was "trusted" sites online or YouTube. It's seen as not necessary; "you can't learn anything from books" I was told years ago - well I at least know some background, terms and theory?! It's a start?

It's nearly all kids and teens at my yard and I find it very depressing. Unless you have a sport horse, your own transport and are out competing, they don't want to know. They only take notice if one of their friends tells them something. So I say nothing and am spending less and less time at the yard, or going very late or early, I just can't cope with seeing what goes on.

 

[Nudibranch]

Top level sport is easy prey. I wish some people would look to their own practice first. On one of the native FB groups there's a young mare, recently backed and being brought on. The rider has professional help and writes posts well, detailing all the training they do. But the pony is very clearly too small in terms of rider weight (and height) and the rider has mobility and balance issues. She often shows many of the more subtle signs of discomfort - facial expressions, tail swishing, altered stride. The poster always attributes it (wrongly imo) to "concentration". I'm not saying she shouldn't ride, but the pro really ought to have suggested a larger animal. That little mare is going to have back and hock issues by 10, I would put money on it. Ignorance is just as bad as deliberate bad practice.

 

[ycbm]

There are problems throughout horse sport from the top to the bottom, but I do think if anyone competes on the world stage with million upon million of eyes on them, they really do need to be squeakier clean than other people involved with horses and lead by example.
.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I go round and round in circles with this. Because we certainly don't use animals in elite sports somehow for their benefit. The stresses and strains of huge jumps, or repetitive dressage moves in an uncomfortable outline are devastating for many horses, never mind the freak fatal accidents. And when non-horsey people dare say anything along the lines of "I'm not sure those horses look happy" they get belittled, or dismissed, or attacked.

But I have two lead rein ponies who live out 24/7 and occasionally potter down the lane/round the farm, and who should in theory have an idyllic life. But one of them is really not doing so well (lots of health issues-ppid, ems, always on a laminitic knife edge, crib bites, generally doesn't come across as a happy bunny) and she would almost certainly benefit from more work (even though I'm almost certain she wouldn't actually "enjoy" it!)

So maybe they'd all be happier roaming free on the moors. Except I see plenty of overweight ponies up on dartmoor, and at this time of year a lot of them look noticeably "footy" even from a distance. And there have been repeated outbreaks of strangles, which often (unsurprisingly) don't seem to be picked up until they're really quite advanced. Plus any free roaming pony can pick any of the usual "field" injuries, which would quite possibly go several days unnoticed.

I've rambled so long now I think I've forgotten my point! But basically, there's a fairly narrow window of "perfect" conditions in which to keep a horse. Almost unlimited turnout with a perfectly behaved, stable herd, on mud free yet sparse meadow grazing, expert handling, bottomless vet funds, plenty of low impact, varied hacking (and let's for now ignore all the horses who get totally stressed out by hacking) And I really can't decide whether that means we just accept the pros and the cons of various equine lifestyles, or whether most of us (myself definitely included) should step away from owning horses altogether.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

But hey, after these Olympics, maybe the kids who like the adrenaline junkie side of riding, but don't actually have that all-consuming passion for horses, will all just get skateboards instead?!

 

[milliepops]

I go round and round in circles with this. Because we certainly don't use animals in elite sports somehow for their benefit. The stresses and strains of huge jumps, or repetitive dressage moves in an uncomfortable outline are devastating for many horses, never mind the freak fatal accidents. And when non-horsey people dare say anything along the lines of "I'm not sure those horses look happy" they get belittled, or dismissed, or attacked.

But I have two lead rein ponies who live out 24/7 and occasionally potter down the lane/round the farm, and who should in theory have an idyllic life. But one of them is really not doing so well (lots of health issues-ppid, ems, always on a laminitic knife edge, crib bites, generally doesn't come across as a happy bunny) and she would almost certainly benefit from more work (even though I'm almost certain she wouldn't actually "enjoy" it!)

So maybe they'd all be happier roaming free on the moors. Except I see plenty of overweight ponies up on dartmoor, and at this time of year a lot of them look noticeably "footy" even from a distance. And there have been repeated outbreaks of strangles, which often (unsurprisingly) don't seem to be picked up until they're really quite advanced. Plus any free roaming pony can pick any of the usual "field" injuries, which would quite possibly go several days unnoticed.

I've rambled so long now I think I've forgotten my point! But basically, there's a fairly narrow window of "perfect" conditions in which to keep a horse. Almost unlimited turnout with a perfectly behaved, stable herd, on mud free yet sparse meadow grazing, expert handling, bottomless vet funds, plenty of low impact, varied hacking (and let's for now ignore all the horses who get totally stressed out by hacking) And I really can't decide whether that means we just accept the pros and the cons of various equine lifestyles, or whether most of us (myself definitely included) should step away from owning horses altogether.

I can't contemplate it at the moment , but I can definitely imagine a time when I'd have to give up riding because the mental struggle over whether it's fair or not will get the better of me. Not giving up owning though, I think its possible to keep pet horses in a way that's good for them.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

At my newish yard all the horses compete and they all seem healthy and happy.

Maybe they just seem ok because they are a healthy weight and fit. But presumably horses feel better when they are fit and well just like people do. And presumably they like variety and get bored with nothing to do. So I do think giving horses a job is no bad thing. As long as they are physically and psychologically prepared for that job

 

[Upthecreek]

Everyone that rides horses should remember how privileged we are that they co-operate with us to enable us to do what we love, whether it be for work or pleasure. I don’t believe they do any of what we ask of them because they enjoy it, they do it because we have trained them to co-operate with us and accept our instructions. For example, my horses are often turned out in fields with cross country jumps in them. They do not decide to have a break from eating grass and jump the jumps of their own free will for fun. If you turn a dressage horse loose in an arena, it isn’t going to start practicing a dressage test out of choice for enjoyment. I struggle with the concept that some horses ‘love jumping’ or ‘hate flat work’. It is all down to how well or badly they have been trained and whether their experience has been positive or negative.

I don’t believe horses need a job or get bored/unhappy without one. Of course if they’ve been used to regular exercise and are fit there would be a period of adjustment to a new routine/way of life, but after that they are usually perfectly content not being ridden.

Some people associate pricked ears with looking happy, but it means the horse is alert and focused on something; whether that be on the approach to a jump or spooking past a plastic bag in the hedge.

 

[milliepops]

Everyone that rides horses should remember how privileged we are that they co-operate with us to enable us to do what we love, whether it be for work or pleasure. I don’t believe they do any of what we ask of them because they enjoy it, they do it because we have trained them to co-operate with us and accept our instructions. For example, my horses are often turned out in fields with cross country jumps in them. They do not decide to have a break from eating grass and jump the jumps of their own free will for fun. If you turn a dressage horse loose in an arena, it isn’t going to start practicing a dressage test out of choice for enjoyment. I struggle with the concept that some horses ‘love jumping’ or ‘hate flat work’. It is all down to how well or badly they have been trained and whether their experience has been positive or negative.

I don’t believe horses need a job or get bored/unhappy without one. Of course if they’ve been used to regular exercise and are fit there would be a period of adjustment to a new routine/way of life, but after that they are usually perfectly content not being ridden.

Some people associate pricked ears with looking happy, but it means the horse is alert and focused on something; whether that be on the approach to a jump or spooking past a plastic bag in the hedge.

Totally agree with all of this.

 

[splashgirl45]

Everyone that rides horses should remember how privileged we are that they co-operate with us to enable us to do what we love, whether it be for work or pleasure. I don’t believe they do any of what we ask of them because they enjoy it, they do it because we have trained them to co-operate with us and accept our instructions. For example, my horses are often turned out in fields with cross country jumps in them. They do not decide to have a break from eating grass and jump the jumps of their own free will for fun. If you turn a dressage horse loose in an arena, it isn’t going to start practicing a dressage test out of choice for enjoyment. I struggle with the concept that some horses ‘love jumping’ or ‘hate flat work’. It is all down to how well or badly they have been trained and whether their experience has been positive or negative.

I don’t believe horses need a job or get bored/unhappy without one. Of course if they’ve been used to regular exercise and are fit there would be a period of adjustment to a new routine/way of life, but after that they are usually perfectly content not being ridden.

Some people associate pricked ears with looking happy, but it means the horse is alert and focused on something; whether that be on the approach to a jump or spooking past a plastic bag in the hedge.

we had a few logs in our field and if the herd were having a hooley they would all go round the logs except for mine, she would also jump from one field to the other and back again and i assume she just enjoyed it....

 

[piebaldproblems]

So maybe they'd all be happier roaming free on the moors. Except I see plenty of overweight ponies up on dartmoor, and at this time of year a lot of them look noticeably "footy" even from a distance.

I read a study once (can’t remember the name) which suggested that a very high percentage of the feral Welsh ponies develop lami. They have to be good doers to survive the winter, hence the grass in the summer is way too rich for them. Same with the feral horses in NZ. In both cases, our lands are way too rich for them. Wild horses can only really on thrive on land like the mustangs roam on.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

My Aunt ‘rescues’ Dartmoor ponies and won’t back them for riding as they are ‘free spirits’. But horses are domesticated. They aren’t wandering 20 miles a day in herds and expressing natural behaviours. I think retirement is fine on a yard set up for that. Space, company, a method for weight management etc. But horses stood all day in small fields or stables with nothing to do don’t seem happy to me. Obese horses left in too rich grazing don’t seem happy either. I don’t think my horses care about the job itself but I do think they enjoy getting out and about and are happier fit and active than they would be doing nothing. At least they certainly don’t seem UNhappy. Whenever there is a problem they are pretty quick to let me know and I am willing to listen and figure out the issue.

 

[laura_nash]

For example, my horses are often turned out in fields with cross country jumps in them. They do not decide to have a break from eating grass and jump the jumps of their own free will for fun. If you turn a dressage horse loose in an arena, it isn’t going to start practicing a dressage test out of choice for enjoyment. I struggle with the concept that some horses ‘love jumping’ or ‘hate flat work’. It is all down to how well or badly they have been trained and whether their experience has been positive or negative.

I don’t believe horses need a job or get bored/unhappy without one. Of course if they’ve been used to regular exercise and are fit there would be a period of adjustment to a new routine/way of life, but after that they are usually perfectly content not being ridden.

I'm not claiming that all horses love their job, but I have known horses who, turned out in a field of SJs or XC fences, would jump them for fun (ok not a complete course but still). I have also known horses who would do dressage moves (mainly passage and paiffe) loose in the field. I have also known horses who refused to accept retirement, jumping out of the field and coming down to the yard / school when they got bored despite big fields, friends and plenty to eat.

I'm also not sure that most horses not choosing to jump etc automatically means they don't enjoy it intrinsically. Given the choice my daughter would probably spend all day playing MineCraft but that doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy the other stuff we make her do.

Horses can certainly have opinions on tasks that aren't due to lack of sympathetic training, and can enjoy or not enjoy tasks (maybe just because they find them easy, but I believe they can find things fun or not fun due to their character). Personally I've certainly known horses who think hacking alone is great fun and love going out exploring, and others who find the whole concept beyond scary, and that was with the same trainer.

 

[palo1]

Everyone that rides horses should remember how privileged we are that they co-operate with us to enable us to do what we love, whether it be for work or pleasure. I don’t believe they do any of what we ask of them because they enjoy it, they do it because we have trained them to co-operate with us and accept our instructions. For example, my horses are often turned out in fields with cross country jumps in them. They do not decide to have a break from eating grass and jump the jumps of their own free will for fun. If you turn a dressage horse loose in an arena, it isn’t going to start practicing a dressage test out of choice for enjoyment. I struggle with the concept that some horses ‘love jumping’ or ‘hate flat work’. It is all down to how well or badly they have been trained and whether their experience has been positive or negative.

I don’t believe horses need a job or get bored/unhappy without one. Of course if they’ve been used to regular exercise and are fit there would be a period of adjustment to a new routine/way of life, but after that they are usually perfectly content not being ridden.

Some people associate pricked ears with looking happy, but it means the horse is alert and focused on something; whether that be on the approach to a jump or spooking past a plastic bag in the hedge.

I think there is a problem with this approach to domesticated horses I am afraid and I say this as someone with a close connection to a herd of free-running horses on a Welsh hill. Those horses have all of the 5 freedoms though they are not truly 'wild'; some will live their entire lives with very little human interaction, others will be brought in off the hill to be started and ridden - usually to be put back on the hill again for winter or summer depending. In years and years of doing this we have only had 1 horse that clearly felt this was problematical to her; she was a very dominant mare that we had hoped would make a riding horse for our children but in the end she was not temperamentally suited to that so she returned to the hill. Every other horse has been happy to be caught on the hill and led away from their herd in spite of them clearly understanding what headcollars and children mean in terms of loss of liberty! My children have always viewed this as both an extraordinary generosity on the part of these ponies as well as an indication that what comes next is not difficult or upsetting to these horses. I don't think horses are stupid and whilst training or habituation is influential, at the same time I don't believe that horses are not capable on independent thinking on those matters either lol.

Those feral horses almost always have worms, lice and overgrown feet. We have never had one get laminitis from coming onto the grass from the hill but there is evidence of abcesses that have occurred, kicks and bite marks. I have seen a very old horse (25+) with some troubling ligament/tendon (probably - I am not a vet) issues likely due to lack of footcare and the ageing process but in that scenario it is likely to be unfairly stressful to deal with that other than by euthanasia which may or may not be warranted in view of the soundness and overall health of that animal. We take a moderate approach to those things; horses are wormed and observed carefully, de-loused and feet are given a while to chip off over a couple of weeks. On the whole the horses are incredibly sound, level and confident, rarely footsore so unless there is an obvious issue we tend not to intervene. With any horse that comes in from the hill, handling is aimed at both safety for us and potential vet/farrier intervention and usually that is easily achieved though we have only asked a farrier to deal with things that are not 'working' (feet so blooming hard that they won't chip off as the horses start work or some specific balance issue) Those horses see us heading up the field with headcollars or bridles and they are clearly interested to come in, be tacked up and to do something different. They have all been happy to jump without schooling as such and are lovely fun horses all round though none are asked to compete in any way. We have taken a couple of them trailhunting with no hysterics either! There is very little 'pressure' for those horses in their ridden work I accept - they may be asked to load up though that is rare and they are usually ridden over the hiils that they are familiar with, in company. Tack is simple too. But still, they are being asked to do something pretty unnatural to them at the same time as remain skilled in their ability to fend for themselves in the 'off' season. Our use of these horses is traditional (as in this has been the way for generations) but certainly not common and to be honest I can't see this system continuing for us for many more years; there is no stallion for the mares currently and no point in risking foals/breeding with the market so swamped. Obviously the current market is...different.

Our domestic horses face a different scenario; in winter they have turnout and a run-in barn but unless ridden their lives are really limited. They have all of the 5 freedoms but I would hate to subject a horse to just that. In summer they have carefully rationed grazing because they never get 'poor' during the winter (they have ad lib forage in the form of hay). Again they have their 5 freedoms but their lives are pretty limited in terms of truly ' natural' experience. They have no 'tasks' like finding water, getting out of the way of the weather, sorting out disputes in the herd, identifying novel or understood threats (such as walkers, cyclists etc) and don't experience the births and deaths of a natural herd. (Our hill horses have not had a birth in their herd for some years now either actually as the market for hill ponies is non-existant pretty much still).

For me, when you take an animal's natural liberty from it there has to be a payoff. Native/feral horses experience some pretty difficult things and their quality of life does fluctuate according to those natural pressures. But they have a life of a horse which is generally considered a desirable thing. Our domestic horses lose the opportunity to have that so for me, it is important to put something else in place - a replacement for those 'tasks' and pressures that horses are entirely designed to face. Riding, groundwork provide these astonishing clever, sensitive animals with a way to express the natural athletic, physical and mental challenges that they are brilliantly equipped to meet. I do not think that horses 'just' want to stand and graze the same pasture for years on end and I say that as someone who has had retired horses. My experience of watching feral/natural horses over several decades has led me to think that and I am uneasy at the thought of 'pet' horses with all of the challenges of a natural life removed. I do think horses experience boredom and I think they do deserve the opportunity to face a variety of stimulation and pressures (within reason and identifying that level is the crux of the problem for domestic horses). I know that is probably difficult on lots of levels.

 

[ycbm]

I don’t believe they do any of what we ask of them because they enjoy it, they do it because we have trained them to co-operate with us and accept our instructions.

I'm not saying this is true of all of them but I've had more than one hunter who couldn't wait to get in the box on a Saturday morning, who knew exactly where we were going. Also an eventer who used to jump a round of show jumps if he was turned out in a field with them. I tested him one day after the show jumping at an event by putting my colours on and just sitting on him with looped reins. His head went up and he scanned the entire area until he saw the white start box which was several field away, and set of for it with no steering from me until he got there. I had to pick up the reins then or he would probably have started the course ?

I train horses that don't much like it to hack alone until they seem happy with it and I would give up if that point doesn't arrive. Other than that, I wouldn't, these days, ask a horse to do anything which I believe it genuinely doesn't want to do.
.

 

[palo1]

I read a study once (can’t remember the name) which suggested that a very high percentage of the feral Welsh ponies develop lami. They have to be good doers to survive the winter, hence the grass in the summer is way too rich for them. Same with the feral horses in NZ. In both cases, our lands are way too rich for them. Wild horses can only really on thrive on land like the mustangs roam on.

This is not the case in my experience. Feral horses hooves demonstrate an enormous level of adaptation to weather, grazing etc and laminitis may occur but I have seen no evidence of it routinely. I would be interested to see that study and alongside comparable work related to an ordinary population of domestic horses.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I bought the fell pony I backed on a bit of an impulse. She had just come off the hill and was barely handled. She caught my eye because she spooked at a plastic bag in the hedge then re-approached to explore it. She had the same attitude to me: wary but curious and the curiosity overcame the wariness. She was out 24/6/365 in an 8 acre field on a hill. I was in a particularly’let the horse choose’ phase so I wanted her to come to me. If she didn’t approach I’d leave her but she almost always did approach and then I’d work her. But ‘work’ initially was with her unrestrained in a field. She was taught pressure/release, introduced to a bit and bridle all loose. When she was halter trained and long reined obviously she had a lead rope or lines attached but she stayed willing and interested in the process. I never used treats and she wasn’t fed so the only incentive for her to come up to me was because she was curious or playful or just enjoyed having something to do. In the whole time I had her she never bucked, napped, reared or showed any evasions at all. A novice 11 yo Katie could happily hack her out on the buckle when she was still only 4.
I really do think she liked her lifestyle and her work.

 

[milliepops]

I'm not claiming that all horses love their job, but I have known horses who, turned out in a field of SJs or XC fences, would jump them for fun (ok not a complete course but still). I have also known horses who would do dressage moves (mainly passage and paiffe) loose in the field. I have also known horses who refused to accept retirement, jumping out of the field and coming down to the yard / school when they got bored despite big fields, friends and plenty to eat.

i've got a horse that would often jump the XC jumps in the fencelines, and she now jumps my electric fencing... but she was always doing it to see if there was something better on the other side
it so happened that she was a brilliant XC horse probably because of her natural bold curiosity but I can't say that she'd take herself round an XC course without a rider, she would only go so far as necessary to find good grazing

Same horse will get on any horsebox with a ramp down, just walking through a lorry park... I do believe horses can enjoy a job but it's very hard to disentangle what they naturally would choose if they'd been unhandled etc and what they have learned from previous experience/training with their handlers. for example that horse was a terrible loader until i taught her not to be afraid of the box, so she wouldn't have been like this without my input.
After a few years of downtime that horse doesn't give a toss about me now unless I've got carrots, i don't think she misses her work as it's been replaced by being the local neigh-bourhood watch, bossing her gang around etc.

I know there will always be exceptions i just think as people who want to ride we need to make sure we aren't just spinning a narrative about how riding is not remotely exploitative and shoehorning horse behaviour into that.

 

[Upthecreek]

Palo I’m not sure what approach to keeping domesticated horses you think I was advocating and have a problem with?

Horses learn by repetition and how they react to a situation is based on previous positive or negative association and experiences. Most of the things we are able to do with horses are as a result of the time we put in to training them to co-operate with us and accept our instructions. The horse would not do those things without our input. We make the training positive and we hopefully end up with a willing partner that trusts us to lead, even in situations that it is at first unsure of, such as loading into a horse trailer or being shod/clipped or whatever.

Horses are generally curious of humans, provided they have not had a previous bad experience. How many of us have taken on a horse that has had a bad experience? We all know how much re-training and positive experiences it takes to overcome bad ones. They are certainly capable of independent thought. Do they feel human emotions such as happiness or enjoyment? I don’t think so. Do they feel content because their needs are met, they have a routine and they are intelligent enough to remember what happens next through repetition? Definitely.