Why it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses

[littletrotter]

That's a beautiful bit of trivia. Where did you get it from?

I know a lot of midwives! It is a fairly well-known part of the story of Dr Ignaz (i think) Semmelweis (i'm sure of that bit). He was the first physician to feel that Doctor's should wash their hands between patients and it was because he saw how many women were dying on maternity wards where doctors and student doctors worked, as opposed to midwife-run wards - because they were engaged in frequent autopsies as part of their studies, something he realised after a pathologist cut himself during an autopsy and subsequently died. Midwives didn't do autopsies.

Anyway he told everyone to wash their hands in chlorine soap (ironically he chose chlorine because it has a strong smell and he thought it would remove the smell of death, though we now know it is a very effective antibacterial) and the death rates fell dramatically, by 80-90%. However he was, at the time (1840's so actually a bit after homeopathy) totally berated by his colleagues as they felt his hypothesis made them look "to blame" for the childbed fevers (which of course they were!) and they basically turned their backs on his theory and him. He ended up in a mental institution, where he died aged only 47, of sepsis, the very thing his findings would have prevented if his practices had been widely adopted.

It was several more years before Pasteur came up with germ theory and set us on the road to modern medicine.

 

[Booboos]

No need to be so rude!

Do you want a medal for believing in something and not even knowing what it is?

 

[ycbm]

Do you want a medal for believing in something and not even knowing what it is?

That's called religion, gravity, catalysis, I think Boobos , it's not uncommon in all sorts of walks of life, and I do think you are being a tad hard on Tiddlypom.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Do you want a medal for believing in something and not even knowing what it is?

I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't?

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)

 

[ycbm]

I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't?

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)

Well that's the really surprising thing. In scientific tests you can prove that placebos work even if the person taking them knows they do absolutely nothing!

 

[JFTDWS]

As stated previously, I'm cynical but just so you know, arnica is toxic if ingested in an undiluted form. Homeopathic preparations of 'hyperdilute' arnica are meant for ingestion and therefore probably do adhere to the like for like theory. The herbal preparation is for topical use only.

That's not strictly true - whilst oral arnica is toxic at certain doses, people do still take herbal preparations of arnica orally as an anti-inflammatory- and swear to god it helps them too, because that's what people do... Misguided, maybe, but the lack of logic still stands.

I know a lot of midwives! It is a fairly well-known part of the story of Dr Ignaz (i think) Semmelweis (i'm sure of that bit). He was the first physician to feel that Doctor's should wash their hands between patients and it was because he saw how many women were dying on maternity wards where doctors and student doctors worked, as opposed to midwife-run wards - because they were engaged in frequent autopsies as part of their studies, something he realised after a pathologist cut himself during an autopsy and subsequently died. Midwives didn't do autopsies.

Anyway he told everyone to wash their hands in chlorine soap (ironically he chose chlorine because it has a strong smell and he thought it would remove the smell of death, though we now know it is a very effective antibacterial) and the death rates fell dramatically, by 80-90%. However he was, at the time (1840's so actually a bit after homeopathy) totally berated by his colleagues as they felt his hypothesis made them look "to blame" for the childbed fevers (which of course they were!) and they basically turned their backs on his theory and him. He ended up in a mental institution, where he died aged only 47, of sepsis, the very thing his findings would have prevented if his practices had been widely adopted.

It was several more years before Pasteur came up with germ theory and set us on the road to modern medicine.

I knew it was familiar, I read it in a book about the history of germ theory years ago. Alas, the book is in storage so I can't revisit it. But thanks for the refresher - it all came flooding back as I read that!

 

[tallyho!]

Whilst I agree we should not be using taxpayers money to provide therapies yet unproven by modern scientific analysis, I am loathed to sign such a petition.

This reduces the options people have.

Not all evidence that is backed by multimillion dollar investments by pharma work 100%. "Statistically significant" benchmarks are set and as long as you make it into the magic threshold P value, you get to market.

As a patient, or shall we say walking statistic, if you happen to be the number that becomes a failure or a non-responder, where do you go? What if you are unfortunate enough to have a contraindication or match the exclusion criteria? If that treatment is the last box on the disease pathway, what then?

People and animals need options. I'm afraid I will not back the data-philes that want to control everything by numbers and analyses. There is more to life than p values and I'm afraid I refuse to have people like that dictate how I choose to treat myself or my animals. Where there is hope, there exists light. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a dark tunnel one day, you will know what I mean.

 

[Orca]

That's not strictly true - whilst oral arnica is toxic at certain doses, people do still take herbal preparations of arnica orally as an anti-inflammatory- and swear to god it helps them too, because that's what people do... Misguided, maybe, but the lack of logic still stands.

There is no doubt that homeopathy is illogical. I can imagine people do ingest arnica along with other plants which aren't necessarily safe in quantities, which is far more potentially dangerous than a little homeopathic sugar pill could ever be. I think this is why I struggle to feel offended by homeopathy (aside from seeing it appear to work). If it doesn't work, it's benign. If it does work, that's positive.

Specifically how many people have foregone treatment with a proven chance of working, in favour of treatments without scientifically proven success rates, in life or death or painful situations for their horses, I wonder?

Sadly, some may have but I still feel the majority deserve autonomy in their decision making. I'd be more interested in clamping down on vets using medications on horses which are not tested on horses, are not proven scientifically ' safe' for use in horses and are not licensed for use on horses, personally.

 

[tallyho!]

There is no doubt that homeopathy is illogical. I can imagine people do ingest arnica along with other plants which aren't necessarily safe in quantities, which is far more potentially dangerous than a little homeopathic sugar pill could ever be. I think this is why I struggle to feel offended by homeopathy (aside from seeing it appear to work). If it doesn't work, it's benign. If it does work, that's positive.

Specifically how many people have foregone treatment with a proven chance of working, in favour of treatments without scientifically proven success rates, in life or death or painful situations for their horses, I wonder?

Sadly, some may have but I still feel the majority deserve autonomy in their decision making. I'd be more interested in clamping down on vets using medications on horses which are not tested on horses, are not proven scientifically ' safe' for use in horses and are not licensed for use on horses, personally.

As above plus, I don't know how I would put myself on the Hypocrite Scale if I signed the petition... I'm already ON the scale somewhere!

People using homeopathy that could kill their horse... or...

People using HRT namely Premarin (which is 'scientifically proven' by the way - a clinical paper, p values, the lot)... or...

People who use proven drugs on horses that are tested on the tracks... or...

People that use homeopathy that are tested on other animals...

 

[MDB]

I don't understand why homeopathy is being singled out here. I know very little regarding homeopathy, but clearly some people and animals have seen positive results after it's use. I believe a holistic approach to the health of our horses is what is most important. I think most people would not advocate treatment by only one method, at the exclusion of all other options. One could equally be negligent by administering only physio or chiro, or farriery treatment, massage therapy etc etc etc and cause undue suffering to a horse if other effective treatments are available and which could be used either in conjunction with or as an alternative to "alternative" treatments. Personally I believe it is important to have access to all the tools in the toolbox, and at least have the option of choosing, providing the horse is not going to suffer unnecessarily from withholding other possible treatments.

 

[ycbm]

No-one is suggesting that homeopathy is banned. People will still have the choice to use it.

The petition is to stop vets from offering it as one of their services, because there is masses of evidence and without fail it shows that it does not work on animals and in human works only as a placebo does.

I'm in favour of choice AND I've signed the petition.

 

[Danny Vet]

I don't understand why homeopathy is being singled out here. I know very little regarding homeopathy, but clearly some people and animals have seen positive results after it's use. I believe a holistic approach to the health of our horses is what is most important.

You are not alone in not fully understanding homeopathy- I think it often gets confused with herbal medicine or a "holistic approach", but it is neither of those things. This link is a very brief summary of what it entails.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

The reason homeopathy is being singled out compared to other alternative treatments is because, unlike for instance crystal healing or faith healing (which no one has studied properly to prove that they don't work), homeopathy has been studied extensively and we know for certain that it is nothing more than a placebo effect. IN animals, the placebo effect is the owner believing they have seen an improvement but in reality the animal probably hasn't improved. For example, giving homeopathy for a stiff old horse with spavin... maybe he does look less stiff today? Maybe he genuinely isn't as stiff today (because it is warmer)? It is not because of the homeopathy, and the horse would definitely feel better on a proper painkiller.

The other reason homeopathy is being singled out is because it is offered by some vets. Vets are not offering crystal healing or reiki, and if they were that would also be considered unprofessional. Whether you believe in God or not (that is another discussion!) you would be very surprised if your doctor decided to pray for you instead of giving you actual treatment. It's not to say that praying is wrong or won't help, it's just not what you expect from a medical professional. It is the same with vets and homeopathy.

Personally I believe it is important to have access to all the tools in the toolbox, and at least have the option of choosing, providing the horse is not going to suffer unnecessarily from withholding other possible treatments.

You're correct, we should use the variety of tools in the toolbox. But you would throw out any tool from your toolbox that didn't actually work!

 

[Django Pony]

A link explaining how homepathy works:
http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

 

[Cortez]

A link explaining how homepathy works:
http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

Or rather, doesn't.....

 

[FfionWinnie]

I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't?

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)

Unless you have the exact same falls every time (and if you do maybe get some super glue ) it's not really a test is it because each fall is an individual erm, experiment... 😳

 

[Booboos]

I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't?

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)

You don't have to expect the placebo effect or even know about it for it to work.

 

[Booboos]

You are not alone in not fully understanding homeopathy- I think it often gets confused with herbal medicine or a "holistic approach", but it is neither of those things. This link is a very brief summary of what it entails.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

The reason homeopathy is being singled out compared to other alternative treatments is because, unlike for instance crystal healing or faith healing (which no one has studied properly to prove that they don't work), homeopathy has been studied extensively and we know for certain that it is nothing more than a placebo effect. IN animals, the placebo effect is the owner believing they have seen an improvement but in reality the animal probably hasn't improved. For example, giving homeopathy for a stiff old horse with spavin... maybe he does look less stiff today? Maybe he genuinely isn't as stiff today (because it is warmer)? It is not because of the homeopathy, and the horse would definitely feel better on a proper painkiller.

The other reason homeopathy is being singled out is because it is offered by some vets. Vets are not offering crystal healing or reiki, and if they were that would also be considered unprofessional. Whether you believe in God or not (that is another discussion!) you would be very surprised if your doctor decided to pray for you instead of giving you actual treatment. It's not to say that praying is wrong or won't help, it's just not what you expect from a medical professional. It is the same with vets and homeopathy.



You're correct, we should use the variety of tools in the toolbox. But you would throw out any tool from your toolbox that didn't actually work!

There are loads of studies that prove that faith healing doesn't work. There are studies that show that prayer doesn't work, studies that show that being bitten by a serpent has no therapeutic effect, etc.

I am sure some poor sod has also wasted his time showing that waving crystals around does not produce a magical therapy, but I doubt it's made any difference who those who believe it does.

 

[Booboos]

Whilst I agree we should not be using taxpayers money to provide therapies yet unproven by modern scientific analysis, I am loathed to sign such a petition.

This reduces the options people have.

Not all evidence that is backed by multimillion dollar investments by pharma work 100%. "Statistically significant" benchmarks are set and as long as you make it into the magic threshold P value, you get to market.

As a patient, or shall we say walking statistic, if you happen to be the number that becomes a failure or a non-responder, where do you go? What if you are unfortunate enough to have a contraindication or match the exclusion criteria? If that treatment is the last box on the disease pathway, what then?

People and animals need options. I'm afraid I will not back the data-philes that want to control everything by numbers and analyses. There is more to life than p values and I'm afraid I refuse to have people like that dictate how I choose to treat myself or my animals. Where there is hope, there exists light. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a dark tunnel one day, you will know what I mean.

You know big pharma are the owners of the largest herbal, homeopathic and natural healing therapy companies right?!

Also 'as yet unproven' is quite different from 'entirely disproven and Baden on ridiculous claims anyway'.

 

[Tnavas]

Who said it was?

What you described was the use of HERBAL remedies. Homeopathy uses tinctures of substances in such diluted form as to incite the body to build a resistance, like polio, measles mumps and rubella injections. They make the bodies immune system work.

 

[JFTDWS]

Homeopathy uses tinctures of substances in such diluted form as to incite the body to build a resistance, like polio, measles mumps and rubella injections. They make the bodies immune system work.

Um no. Just no.

 

[Overread]

Immunising injections are more complex than that; they don't just contain "a bit of" what they immunise against; but rather a generally special strain which is less aggressive/effective. So its enough to build resistance, but not enough to actually infect you. And whilst its a tiny amount the concentrations are vastly higher than in Homeopathy.


Asides which immunisation doesn't work after you've become ill; its for before to prevent. Once you are infected and are ill you have to reach for different medication and methods to tackle the problem.



It's also important to realise that:
1) Animals are very good at hiding pain and most will hide fairly significant levels of pain. As a result an animal might appear ok, when it is in fact in pain; the pain is just not so bad as to make them show it. Which is why when you see an animal visibly in pain its normally a very bad sign.

2) The body is an amazing thing and can recover from many problems; or adapt to live with them (to an extent). As a result for some more milder conditions its possible for the animal to recover fully or to a point where they show no obvious signs of distress; or to at least improve their condition. As a result its easy to think that homeopathy has "done" something when in fact its done nothing.



I also argue that the concentrations of chemicals within homeopathy are so tiny that just drinking regular tap-water should immunise and cure you to a huge number of things automatically. Indeed considering how water gets around nearly everything a single glass should render you 100% medically sound and immune to illness.

 

[littletrotter]

I also argue that the concentrations of chemicals within homeopathy are so tiny that just drinking regular tap-water should immunise and cure you to a huge number of things automatically. Indeed considering how water gets around nearly everything a single glass should render you 100% medically sound and immune to illness.

But if you don't drink ANY water then you die, so therefore homeopathy works. Also breathing air is deadly because 100% of dead people were doing so right before they died

 

[Overread]

But if you don't drink ANY water then you die, so therefore homeopathy works. Also breathing air is deadly because 100% of dead people were doing so right before they died

Ahh but you forget H2O is found in 100% of murder victims!




In general though yes drinking water helps with most illness and sickness. Remaining hydrated is an important thing, but that should never be confused with the use of Homeopathy.

 

[cava14una]

I had sinus pain which extended into my mouth and caused really bad pain which pain killers didn't touch. I was treated by a homeopath and the pain went and has never come back.

 

[Overread]

I had sinus pain which extended into my mouth and caused really bad pain which pain killers didn't touch. I was treated by a homeopath and the pain went and has never come back.

Sinus pain is, however, linked to stress levels. It could be that the pains you were having were partly the result of stress and that the homeopathic pathway offered resulted in a reduction in your stress levels. It could also have been an infection which had increased impact due to higher stress levels at the time.

No one denies that homeopathic medication can work through placebo effect; nor that many homeopathic methods often include a lot of psychological support and well-being.


It is impossible, though, that true homeopathic medication would have resulted in a purely chemically induced change within your body and sinuses which would have stopped the pain.




It is also important to realise that, as related earlier in a story by another user, sometimes some homeopathic medications are used which are closer to herbal remedies than true homeopathic. Herbal medication certainly does work and many "science" medical compounds are derived from herbal sources. It's why scientists are always talking about the vast unknown potential for medical discoveries from areas like the Amazon.

 

[littletrotter]

Ahh but you forget H2O is found in 100% of murder victims!




In general though yes drinking water helps with most illness and sickness. Remaining hydrated is an important thing, but that should never be confused with the use of Homeopathy.

Actually H2O is chemicals, and everyone knows chemicals kill you. By drowning in this case.

 

[littletrotter]

I had sinus pain which extended into my mouth and caused really bad pain which pain killers didn't touch. I was treated by a homeopath and the pain went and has never come back.

Pain isn't in your sinuses though, it's in your brain (all pain is actually produced, as an experience of the sufferer, in the brain).

You can amputate someone's leg and they can go on feeling excruciating pain in it. Unfortunately pain response isn't as straightforward as say, bleeding. I know someone who used homeopathic treatments after giving birth when she was bleeding too much. She lost nearly 2000cc of blood, eventually she transported to hospital and took the allopathic cure (IV transfusion of contractant medication) and it stopped. She had to have 3 units transfused though.

Anecdote isn't data. The data indicates that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. Placebo has a POWERFUL effect for some problems and in some people! It shouldn't be discounted as a therapeutic approach. A lot of folk on this thread seem to use "placebo" as interchangeable with "useless" - it's NOT useless. And if it works for you you should keep using it. The most recent studies show that for pain, paracetamol is only as good as placebo. It is still a recommended treatment because it's fever-reducing properties are not merely placebo (although ibuprofen is better on both counts than paracetamol or placebo).

 

[tallyho!]

You know big pharma are the owners of the largest herbal, homeopathic and natural healing therapy companies right?!

Also 'as yet unproven' is quite different from 'entirely disproven and Baden on ridiculous claims anyway'.

Oh my... booboos, are you agreeing with someone for a change?

 

[tallyho!]

You are not alone in not fully understanding homeopathy- I think it often gets confused with herbal medicine or a "holistic approach", but it is neither of those things. This link is a very brief summary of what it entails.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

The reason homeopathy is being singled out compared to other alternative treatments is because, unlike for instance crystal healing or faith healing (which no one has studied properly to prove that they don't work), homeopathy has been studied extensively and we know for certain that it is nothing more than a placebo effect. IN animals, the placebo effect is the owner believing they have seen an improvement but in reality the animal probably hasn't improved. For example, giving homeopathy for a stiff old horse with spavin... maybe he does look less stiff today? Maybe he genuinely isn't as stiff today (because it is warmer)? It is not because of the homeopathy, and the horse would definitely feel better on a proper painkiller.

The other reason homeopathy is being singled out is because it is offered by some vets. Vets are not offering crystal healing or reiki, and if they were that would also be considered unprofessional. Whether you believe in God or not (that is another discussion!) you would be very surprised if your doctor decided to pray for you instead of giving you actual treatment. It's not to say that praying is wrong or won't help, it's just not what you expect from a medical professional. It is the same with vets and homeopathy.



You're correct, we should use the variety of tools in the toolbox. But you would throw out any tool from your toolbox that didn't actually work!

Danny Vet... vets routinely use medicines that are not proven and some have been disproven routinely.

Metformin for laminitis. No evidence. (No large trials with dose ranging or dose confirmation for equids)

Sarcoid tratements. Some only have anecdotal evidence.

Far from advocating homeopathy, I'm merely supporting choice.

 

[Booboos]

Oh my... booboos, are you agreeing with someone for a change?

I am agreeing with the people on this thread who think homeopathy is nonsense and should not be prescribed as a treatment by people who represent the veterinary profession.