Why use a ''not fully qualified'' EDT?

[hellspells]

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Maybe its about time names SHOULD be mentioned......Mine has a few times....Ive got NOTHING to hide. The good ones have been named.......why not name the ones who should be shamed?

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Because that would surely be classed as a defamatory comment don't you think??

I use dentists that happen to be on the list, however even if they weren't I would still use them as I am very happy with the their standards. The same has to be said if for any reason in the future I had to change EDT's. I would find one through word of mouth, that I was happy to treat my horse reg or not reg.

 

[Indy]

To be fair, the list VictoriaEDT is a bit misleading, as somebody else has pointed out you can pass the BEVA qualification but not renew your membership and get on the list.

So are you saying that they are no longer qualified even though they have done the training/exams just because they haven't renewed their membership.

Or am I missing the point?

 

[VictoriaEDT]

I agree!

but believe me there are very few that are qualified but not on the list. Marcus Fasey, Viewigs.....in not sure if there is anyone else? perhaps ponydentist can confirm this.

TBH I was of the assumption that if you pass BEVA you go on the list then whether you decide to become a member of the BAEDT then you go on the BAEDT list and if not you stay on BEVA and not on BAEDT.

I guess it is this way to encourage all qualified EDTs to become a member of the BAEDT, so they can be sure that you will sign the contract to abide by the performance guidelines that BAEDT set. Those that chose not to join, I assume BEVA dont want to advertise because they will not have signed this contract.......which is understandable i suppose?

If you are unsure, the thing to do would be to ring BEVA and ask them whether the EDT is BEVA qualified or not. Also, express your concerns about the system if you wish.......afterall, it is in place to protect you and your horses.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

This is a really interesting conversation...a little concerned that the dentist I use isn't on the list despite the fact that she came highly recommended and i was very happy with her work on my chap

 

[M_G]

My dentist is not on the list but came highly recommended by my old dentist (now retired) yes he was trained in the army before EDT's were thought of in civilian life & I trust his judgement.

The chap he recommended to me has been fantastic so calm and kind just like Bernard was & you can hear the tone change when the job is done correctly (Bernard used to make me listen then get me to feel what he had done)

 

[Persephone]

Interestingly one of the dentists on the list had a look at my mare as he was on a yard visit and we were new there. My mare had been done two weeks previously by my vet and this EDT said what a cracking job he had done!

 

[JanetGeorge]

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Because that would surely be classed as a defamatory comment don't you think??

I use dentists that happen to be on the list, however even if they weren't I would still use them as I am very happy with the their standards. The same has to be said if for any reason in the future I had to change EDT's. I would find one through word of mouth, that I was happy to treat my horse reg or not reg.

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It's NOT defamatory to say that someone is not qualified in the UK - or that they failed an exam - or 3 - provided that information is correct.

As for being 'happy with their standards' I would question whether many horse owners know enough about horses' mouths - or can examine them adequately - to be able to profess themselves happy.

I've owned and worked with horses - in many very professional yards as well as my own - for more than 50 years. I have ALWAYS taken an interest in my horses' teeth - and always take the opportunity offered by both my vet and my EDT to 'feel' the problems they find - I can recognise the obvious - and some of the not-so-obvious.

BUT - unless you are equipped with a mouth-gag and a good torch AND a comprehensive knowledge of what is RIGHT, you CANNOT be sure your 'dentist' is doing a good job!

 

[Indy]

I knew Marcus was qualified - I was one of his first clients when he started out. He was a bit put out when I asked him to bring his certificates with him on his first visit!!

I think Marcus is great and used him for many years but his motorised rasp thingy just puts me off because we would need to run a cable from the house to the stables and with the tractors and trailers running in and out it's not really the safest plan.

Anyway I've looked at Paul Waudby's website and he sounds spot on, I think he'll get on with my boys and BrightEyes highly recommends him so hopefully I can get him to come out. Plus to be honest, I don't know enough about the horses mouth to make an informed decision on a good job or a bad job so of course I'm going to try and choose the very best person I can for the job.

I think eventually dentistry will become more regulated and the non-qualified people will gradually be phased out after all every other aspect of equine care is quite strict. I just hope people won't stop using dentists when the non-qualified folks go out of business.

 

[ponydentist]

M G,

Bernard R, was definitely one of the "OLD SCHOOL". You dont judge a good job by the sound the rasp makes......or judge how much rasping has been done by rasping away whilst sing "Its a long way to Tipparary" and when the verse is over there is enough done and move on to next horse...(yes this does happen.....not by Bernard, but by another old timer from his "ERA")

I served four years in the Royal Army Veterinary Corps watching horses having their teeth done in the late seventies, early eighties and belive you me.....you wouldnt have wanted any of those tooth raspers anywhere near your horse.

When Bernard had to retire through Ill health, Brandsby home of Rest for horses contacted me, at the Advice of their vet, to come and take over the dentistry there. Bernard had been going there for the previous 10 years. Their vet had never seen such messy mouths and It took me and the several students I used to take there with me, 2 years of going there once a month, to eveentually sort out the mouths of all their 280 resident horses donkeys and ponies, as well as the new cruelty and neglect cases they were constantly getting in.

For those of you who think your dental provider is GOOd and are happy with their standard I ask this:

How do you know what they do in your horses mouth and how do you know if what they do in there is correct, thorough and sufficient for that particular horse mouth and jaw confirmation??

How do you know if they have left the correct molar table angles and not altered them too much by too much floating??

How do you know if they have left the correct ammount of all three tooth materials on the occlusal surfaces to enable the horse chew effectively...???

How do you know they have removed EVERY problem causing enamel point and reduced the height CORRECTLY of EVERY Excessive transverse ridge, or ptentially unbalancing tooth RIM??

How do you know if that mouth is More balanced....or less balanced than it was before they started work on it. How do you know that any bit seats installed were evenly symetrical?

you can all tell this from a quick feel in your horses mouths can you???...and you are all quite happy that your practitionner is leaving all your horses mouths correct are you???

You are all sure that the advice given you on choice of bits for your particular horses oral confirmation is correct?? or advice on any other problems is CORRECt and current in accordence with the most uptodate research...are you?

If your practitioner has only done a one week course over here in the UK, they wont be doing all the above correctly.....BECAUSE they wont have been taught those things....so how do you know that your practitioner is "GOOD".

They might be good with your horse, have lots of nice shiney instruments, nice uniform, write neat little record sheets (how do you know what it says on them is correct and not just total bull***t), they may be charming, good looking and able to talk the hind legs off a donkey.....but is that how you judge if they are a good dentist????

Qualification takes all the guess work away from you......all of those above things HAVE to be correct....or you wont Qualify. It is there to provide assurity for you that an individual is compitant in all of the above and much more.....but if you aint been there (the exam)....how can you know what standard is required. The Standard is devised by many extreemely skilled and knowlegable experts who have studied Equine dentistry in great depth...both vet and non vet. Surely their interpretation of "good"....is greater than yours with regard to skill and knowledge of such a specialist subject????

 

[Arabelle]

Ponydentist, I am sorry, I am going to have to say this. You come across as a bit ranty and SHOUTY on this subject, which is not doing your argument any favours - I don't let ranty, shouty people handle my horses.

I realise you feel passionately about your profession, but the patronising way you refer to horse owners who don't necessarily agree with you is also a huge negative in encouraging people to take your professional accreditation seriously.

I use my vet, he is as qualified as I require as fortunately my horses don't have any dental issues. If I had a problem with my horse that could relate to her mouth, I might explore further. I don't have a problem - quite the opposite, so I can't be browbeaten in treating your (incomplete) list as a bible.
A

 

[sleepingdragon10]

How do we know that anything we are told isn't total bullshit? I don't know if my dentist has done a good job...that's why I employ a dentist in the first place!

 

[tiffany1]

iam not used to responding to this sort of thing however i do feel Mr or Mrs pony dentist that you are not behaving in a professional manner at all. You seem to enjoy ranting about other people and belittling thier abilities and then crowd all those not a member of your club as being of no worth. within the industry i am familiar with there is a condition for people who choose to increase thier own credability by putting others down. Also you are very brave saying all this while remaining annonimous its the sort of character i would love to treat my horses, NOT. In my time i have used dentists from your group of puritanicle believers and each one destroyed the work of the others. It is due to this fact that i now use a person not of your faith, on asking how the horses mouths were the reply was simply it would be unproffessional if i were to critisize but maybe they had a long term treatment plan. the dentist then went on to carry out the work explaining as they went along all they were doing including how the muscles on the head effect the way the animal both eats and works. so pony dentist my advice to you is to wind your neck in identify your self because until you have checked the work of all the non believing you should keep your counsel and try to help people with dental problems without ruining other hard working professionals who may be more professional than you are by remaining out of the school play ground politics. so sorry this has come across as a rant but i do hate a superiority complex. have a nice day.

 

[Indy]

Just a bit off topic but the guy who sings 'It's a long way to Tipperary' came to do some horses on a livery yard I kept my horses on many moons ago.

He stopped to look at one of my lads and started talking about him, I told him his history etc and the man insisted I didn't know what I was talking about and that he most certainly wasn't a full TB let alone an ex-racer and that I was making it up when I said he had won a good handicap at Goodwood. He then moved onto my other horse (another TB who used to be an all-weather sprinter) and insisted he was an arab with a bit of Welsh Cob! I was not a happy chicken that day at all! Totally irrelevant to the topic but just thought it might lighten the mood a touch

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Guys I know who ponydentist is and although you may not like the way he has come accross on here, I can tell you that he is most definatley a good EDT and practices in an extremely calm considerate and respectful manner. He is just passionate and probably feels like he is banging his head against a brick wall which I am sure you can understand is very frustrating.

When you are "in the thick" of the legislation/politics and clearing up after some of the appauling work that we see on a weekly basis and feeling incredibly sorry for the owner who believed she was doing the best for her horse. This is what makes his comments come across in the way that they do and I am certain it is not intended.

 

[hellspells]

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Because that would surely be classed as a defamatory comment don't you think??

I use dentists that happen to be on the list, however even if they weren't I would still use them as I am very happy with the their standards. The same has to be said if for any reason in the future I had to change EDT's. I would find one through word of mouth, that I was happy to treat my horse reg or not reg.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's NOT defamatory to say that someone is not qualified in the UK - or that they failed an exam - or 3 - provided that information is correct.

As for being 'happy with their standards' I would question whether many horse owners know enough about horses' mouths - or can examine them adequately - to be able to profess themselves happy.

I've owned and worked with horses - in many very professional yards as well as my own - for more than 50 years. I have ALWAYS taken an interest in my horses' teeth - and always take the opportunity offered by both my vet and my EDT to 'feel' the problems they find - I can recognise the obvious - and some of the not-so-obvious.

BUT - unless you are equipped with a mouth-gag and a good torch AND a comprehensive knowledge of what is RIGHT, you CANNOT be sure your 'dentist' is doing a good job!

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Yes I really can - working in the veterinary industry gives me the knowledge I need to know this fact.

 

[Indy]

But not everyone does have extensive veterinary knowledge.

I've horses for 26 years and the extent of my knowledge of a horses mouth is picking the plaque off their teeth (is it gross to admit that I quite enjoy doing this)?. Surely the easiest way to make sure that somebody is doing a job right is to get a professional who is qualified in that area otherwise I might as well just get a rasp and have a go myself. Then I too could go into business as an 'equine dentist'

I just think the qualification route is a fool proof way of being able to get a professional for the job. Would people have an unqualified farrier out (I suppose loads of you are now using unqualified farriers too) surely a horses mouth is as important as its feet.

Goes off humming it's a long way to Tipperary!!

 

[emma69]

The biggest problem I have with what you have said here, is that being on that list doesn't guarentee any of those things either. One person on that list came out to do a couple of livery horses, and like others, the thought was, they are qualified, they must know what they are doing. Fast forward a few days to the horse being ridden for the first time since the work being done. Horse threw his head around, obviously not a happy bunny. Even as someone who knows very little about teeth, I could put my fingers inside the horses mouth and feel sharp edges and part of a tooth broken away. Had vet out, who isn't on that list, but has extensive experience of horses mouths including surgery on mouths, and he said it was one of the worst cases he had seen of poor dentistry. Had it been my horse, I would have been furious and taken it further, but the owner did not.

 

[Indy]

That to me is the point of using somebody qualified. If they do a rubbish job and it's detrimental to the horse's wellbeing then you can report them and get them struck off or make them have remedial training.

There's going to be qualified people who don't do a job as well as they could - then it's up to the horse owner to complain about it. If people don't complain how can anything be done about shoddy work.

For an unqualified dentist doing a rubbish job - what can you do - apart from hunt them down and insert their rasp somewhere where it hurts?

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Sorry to hear that Emma, I am assuming you were in the UK when this happened?

This is why we sign the performance guidlines contract.....to give you guys the peace of mind that we will abide by them and if something goes wrong and like your post, a vet will prove it then you get on the phone to the BAEDT or BEVA........again thats what they are there for, to protect you and your horse. This could lead to legal action and the EDT being removed from the register.

Unfortunately there is no come back and no governing body representing the unqualified EDT.

 

[emma69]

Yes, in the UK. I understand there is recourse in instances like this, but it wasn't my horse, so not my say so. I personally used the vet, he was experienced, and he did a good job (as far as I could tell as a lay person) certainly no issues with horses eating / bitting etc, and he resolved some issues with same. Again, there is recourse if the vet screwed it up tho.

All I was seeking to do was to respond to the other poster who insinuated that if the person is qualified and registered, they must be doing a good job (in terms of balance, correct angles etc). This is not necessarily the case, and whilst you may have recourse if they are reigstered, if the horse presents no obvious sign of pain (as the horse in my case most certainly did) or if the owner cannot recognize signs of pain, what then? I do think word of mouth counts for a lot, especially if the people telling me they are happy with the work performed for them over the years are experienced, knowledgable owners. If I wasn't happy with my vet doing it, that is how I would go about finding someone, not through a registered list. Ideally, yes, they would be qualified through a recognized body, but that alone would not be enough for me.

 

[hellspells]

Emma I do entirely agree with you in your post above.


Indy I was only replying to JanetGeorge's reply to me - I was obviously not suggesting everyone has the knowledge required - only that I do, which she was questioning.

 

[JanetGeorge]

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Yes I really can - working in the veterinary industry gives me the knowledge I need to know this fact.

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Oh dear! Sorry - but that's about the most arrogant thing I've read on this forum!

Working in the veterinary industry doesn't make you an expert on equine dentistry (unless you ARE a very experienced EDT or vet!) Even being an equine vet doesn't NECESSARILY make you foolproof!

I had a horse here for reschooling - owner wasn't happy about horse's mouth - despite having had it treated by TWO vets in 18 months! Owner was right - horse was slightly parrot mouthed and had HUGE hooks at the back that had never been touched! He was treated by my vet - behaviour improved, eating improved, condition improved!

 

[Wishful]

Just a point to put into the mix - given that horses are living longer, is it sensible to keep rasping teeth until they are "perfect"? Apparently more horses, especially those whose teeth are done regularly by dentists are running out of teeth by their early 20s/late teens.

Some vets are more conservative about how much work to do on teeth than others, and some EDTs seem to be more keen for the mouth to be perfect, regardless of the consequences in later life, when the horse runs out of molars to chew his food with...

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Wishful that is a very good question!

When it comes to rebalancing and reducing the height of the teeth; we dont reduce the occlusal (grinding surface) surface of all the teeth, just the ones that have become dominant and then overwear the opposing tooth. That way the "overgrowth" is reduced to its correct height (not over raspsed to de age the horse) and thus allows the opposing tooth to grow down over time.

Each tooth is treated individually where it comes to occlusal surface work. If the EDT over rasped every tooth surface, then this would bring them out of contact and the horse would not be able to chew.

Routine rasping a completely different matter. The surface of the tooth is generally left alone (if no overgrowths need to be addressed) and the cheek sides of the uppers (occassionally the palatal aspect too) and tongue side of the lowers are rasped as these are the areas that get incredibly sharp and need rasping to prevent cheek and tongue ulceration.

Does this answer your question?

 

[Araminta]

This topic could run and run .......

I think most people on this forum have a certain amount of knowledge and speaking about the people I know will choose their dentist carefully through word of mouth or vet recommendation.

As I have said before, there are good and bad, talented and not people out there in all jobs.

Some people just keep quiet and get on and do their job to the best of their ability.

Others ( like Ponydentist) may do the same but I don't understand why they also feel the need to rant and put others down. Behaving like this on an open forum is very silly and does your organisation no favours at all.

 

[Araminta]

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Each tooth is treated individually where it comes to occlusal surface work. If the EDT over rasped every tooth surface, then this would bring them out of contact and the horse would not be able to chew.


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This happened to a horse of mine after " power work" I was told he needed.

£250 later ( cost of sedation as well) my horse was unable to eat for 3 weeks. He look like a walking coat rack and we had to keep him going with soaked calm and condition that he just swallowed ............. and yes, the work was carried out by a fully qualified edt and yes, my vet was horrified!

I must admit I do get worried that so many dentists now just want to use power tools all the time. I can see it is easier than manually rasping but surely it is nor so good for the poor horses teeth? ( or the owners bank balance!)

 

[VictoriaEDT]

Hmm thats not good. You should have spoken to the BAEDT or BEVA about it.

I saw this a lot in the States where they made every tooth as smooth as a car bonet, which felt all well and good to our fingers but useless to the horse as the grinding surface was removed. Then when the mouth was closed and the cheek pulled back, you could see a gap of at least 2-3mm where the cheek teeth didnt meet. Their way of dealing with this was to reduce the incisors to drop the cheek teeth back into occlusion! Not good as this then alters the way TMJ (jaw joint) is sat.
This is why each tooth should be treated individually!

I dont mind if this runs on and on.......if people have questions they want answering then i will try and answer them!

For the record, I dont charge any more to use power over had rasps!

 

[JS65]

Not read the replies, but my EDT came the other day to do mine.
His apprentice started to do one and i stopped him.

He was quite put out that i refused to let his non qualified helper do my horses teeth, saying that he has to learn.

Well sorry Mr EDT, but i waited 3mths for an appointment and pay a certain amount of money to have them done properly by a qualified person, so no, you won't be called upon again.

 

[hellspells]

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Yes I really can - working in the veterinary industry gives me the knowledge I need to know this fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear! Sorry - but that's about the most arrogant thing I've read on this forum!

Working in the veterinary industry doesn't make you an expert on equine dentistry (unless you ARE a very experienced EDT or vet!) Even being an equine vet doesn't NECESSARILY make you foolproof!



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I never said I was foolprof - just like everyother human being I am not perfect. However your rather scathing remarks in your first reply which suggested I was a idiot and new nothing about equine teeth was what the above was in response to. I am merely informing you I am not a idiot and guess what I do know whether my horses have been done properly and well.

 

[ponydentist]

just to answer "wishfulls" post (as victoria has done so very well), the fact is that horses seen regularly by dentist are NOT running out of tooth.....that statement is Propaganda relesed by the Veterinary Industry to scaremonger. The aim of corrective dentistry (balancing a mouth etc) and thereafter maintainance dentistry is to enhance and preserve the longivity of equine teeth.

The use of power instruments to do the treatment is a a matter of personal choice as well as requiring a huge ammount of skill and knowledge of dental anatomy. I have a large inventory of equipment and instrumentation and use hand held Instruments for all "routine" maintanance work and a combination of hand and power for corrective work, where more work on specific or individual teeth is required as this is what power instruments were originally developed for.