Why you DON'T use the cheapest manege quote... and pics

[catembi]

This is a cautionary tale to save other people making the same mistake!

My school was installed in 2007. All fine for a couple of years, then a membrane edge came up. It was just a foot or 2, so I sewed it down. Then another edge came up, so I sewed that down too, then a bit more, so I... You get the idea.

It transpired that NONE of the membrane edges had been heat sealed/sewed/taped or treated in any way, so THE WHOLE LOT has come up. Every single edge of every single sheet.

While investigating, we have also discovered that the stone base wasn't levelled properly, so where there are high spots, the membrane has worn through. The stone base looks like the surface of the moon, it's so bumpy. High bits, low bits, great lumps of rock, some of it's a bit loose, other bits are solid... No wonder it rides deep in some places & shallow/slippy in others, even when we've harrowed it absolutely level! It might *look* level, but the surface will be deep/shallow as the base is all over the place! The stuff used for the base also looks like random c**p.

The manege cost £12k & the person who installed it, who looked like a proper, legitimate company, now appears to have gone out of business. Thistle on here warned me about the company but I stupidly didn't listen. I wish I'd spent a bit more & gone with one of the more expensive quotes, but my ex wanted a new car, so I couldn't afford more. I wish I'd borrowed some money/done a finance deal with a better manege company/saved up for a bit longer as it's basically £12k down the toilet. My school is dangerous & rides v badly.

For now, I'm having to dig up each membrane edge & then sew the edge down by hand using a huge upholstery needle & fishing line. It wrecks my hands & takes 100% of my strength for each stitch as the membrane is tough, esp where it's dirty. It has taken me a day to do one strip & my hands are raw, my arms, shoulders & back are seized & I have another 9 strips to do. Yay.

So:

DO NOT GO WITH THE CHEAPEST QUOTE!

CHECK OUT THEIR PREVIOUS WORK, ESP ARENAS THAT HAVE BEEN DOWN A FEW YEARS.

MAKE SURE YOUR STONE BASE IS TOTALLY FLAT OR STONES WILL WORK THRU THE MEMBRANE & IT WILL RIDE DEEP/SHALLOW.

MAKE SURE YOUR MEMBRANE EDGES ARE TREATED!!!!!!!!

When we have some £££££, the whole lot will have to come off, the base re-levelled, the membrane replaced & a new surface. For now, all I can do is sort out the membrane & get some more cushionride. (Unless there are any HHOers with diggers who fancy an afternoon of base levelling...!)

Please do not waste your breath telling me how stupid I've been - I already know & have plenty of time to think about it while I'm on my knees fighting to force my needle thru with v sore fingers!

Pictures: (sorry if they're huge)

The corner we started on. A 7 m by 5 m rectangle of membrane had literally just been laid down in the corner, so all edges had come up.

Another view of it.

The view from that corner up the long side.

The other long side.

A bit further up the other long side.

The top of the other long side. Note the insidious trippy bit in the foreground - this is how an edge starts to come up & you can't see it til you trip over it.

A random edge running across the centre line.

Another random trippy bit.

Removing the surface.

You can see how bumpy the underlying rock is.

More bumpy bits.

Mr Catembi hard at work. This is on the rectangle. They obv ran out of membrane & didn't want to start a new roll, so just chucked on a random bit in the corner.

Exposing the edge.

Needle & fishing line.

That section finished!

 

[Jazzy B]

12K is still a lot of money OP - criminal!

 

[Jingleballs]

12k isn't exactly cheap - I know people up here who have done it for £2k (needless to say those menages are crap!)

I don't envy you having to sort it. Shame the company are out of business although I'm not sure you'd get much help from them even if they weren't!

 

[longdog]

Echo Miss Bean - 12K is not exactly small potatoes, is it

 

[Oriel]

What a mess!! You must be absolutely fuming

 

[Smarties]

if you know the company that installed it and that they ahve since gone bust if you have the directors names you can put that into companies house to see if they are trading again under a new name jsut to warn others off if nothing else

 

[PippiPony]

Nightmare C

Looks like you are doing a good job on it now.

 

[Booboos]

I am so sorry that is such a nightmare for you! I completely agree with the others, 12k is not exactly cheap!!! Is it worth putting in a claim for compensation with the receivers just in case they ever get to paying you any of the money back?

Is it at all possible to heat seal the membrane? I imagine it's a lot faster and easier than the sewing, although you still have to sweep away the surface to expose the membrane as you are already doing.

The other option is to give up on salvaging it, pull up the membrane altogether, use it until it doesn't drain any more and then start again.

 

[skint1]

I'm so sorry catembi, and I agree, £12k is not cheap :'(
Had a similar issue with my driveway (on smaller scale) so I know it can be really upsetting

 

[HappyNeds]

I'm so sorry, this is just gutting. But thank you for taking the time to post all the photos and share your story to help someone else.

We are currently right in the middle of having our arena built by a local company/contractor, and we are trying to tred the fine balance between not driving him mad, but making sure we poke our nose in at every opportunity and understand every stage of the process.

We spent months investigating and getting quotes, and the one we have chosen is not the cheapest, but seemed like the best all round choice after weighing all the factors.

OP I hope this is not hijacking to comment on this here, but we are currently in a worry as he's just laid the drainage pipes in the channels and covered them and the whole arena with the washed stone, but we've realised none of the ends of the drainage pipes are joined - he's wapped a bit of membrane round the end to stop stones going in it and just butted it up against the side or near the other drainage pipe. We assumed it would have connectors joining the drainage pipes altogether.

Problem is he's covered it with stone now, so we've got until Monday to decide if we ask him to uncover the 'joins' and actually put connectors in so the water will flow properly through all the pipes into the soak away, or just keep quiet and leave it as it is, and assume it will all just 'seep' through everything eventually? Does anyone have any experience of this, or any suggestions as to what to do for the best?

Thanks for letting me add this to your thread OP xx

 

[cptrayes]

It's not "cheap" but around here that would be no more than 2/3 what you would pay for a good job to be done by a big name for an arena on flat land with no fence, so very clearly way out of kilter on price.

So sorry for you Catembi, what a nightmare. Thankyou for warning other people. I hope your fingers survive.

 

[mulledwhine]

Blimey, that is disgusting 'workmanship' , can you go through the claims court to get your money back?

 

[catembi]

I've just dug out the original paperwork & might have a google to see if the people are still about.

At the time, to give some idea of comparison, we were quoted around £15k by a company that specialised in drainage and who also did schools, & £20k by Charles Britton. £20k seemed like a lot of money at the time... not quite so much now!

You live n learn I s'pose, & I have DEF learned from this!

Not sure that the membrane would heat seal. It feels like thick felt.

T x

 

[quirky]

That task looks soul destroying but just imagine how you'll feel when you've completed strip 9

 

[Booboos]

Not sure that the membrane would heat seal. It feels like thick felt.

T x

That sounds promising. The membrane between sand and hardcore should be non-woven geotextile. Basically this is a needle punched fibre material that allows water but not sand through. You can test if it heat seals by just applying some heat to the two sides. If it works you can just rent a heat sealing thingey-magig off your local builders merchants (they'll know what you mean when you describe what you want to do, it runs on gas bottles).

Alternatively there is specialist double-sided tape you can use. I've never used this myself but it's easy to source in specialist shops online.

 

[catembi]

Yes, I've heard that there's tape. I got a quote for membrane & tape for when we get around to the next stage, but I'm not sure I would trust it! I wonder if it might not work now that the membrane's a bit grubby & has got bits of surface stuck to it?

Does the heat sealing thing work? O/h has got blowtorches so we could try it. So you keep the overlap & just go down the 'seam'? OMG if that worked, it would really save my poor fingers! I can realistically do a strip (20 metres) in a day, so that's 9 days of backbreaking sewing!

I have found the UK Cushion people. They are now running another company for leisure logs from the same address, so I've emailed them. Doubt that I will hear anything, but nothing ventured & all that. I would be happy if they just re-levelled the base.

T x

 

[kathantoinette]

OP I hope this is not hijacking to comment on this here, but we are currently in a worry as he's just laid the drainage pipes in the channels and covered them and the whole arena with the washed stone, but we've realised none of the ends of the drainage pipes are joined - he's wapped a bit of membrane round the end to stop stones going in it and just butted it up against the side or near the other drainage pipe. We assumed it would have connectors joining the drainage pipes altogether.

I've just shown my partner this thread - he builds sand schools/arenas and they are proven to be good. I ride on one he put in over 10 years ago - it has been topped up with surface but its good.

These drainage pipes must be linked for the water to flow through (obviously) and then linked again directly into a pipe leading to a drain or soakaway. If the drainage doesn't work you'll have a majorly wet, puddly school. I'd have a chat with your man when he gets back after the weekend.

OP what a nightmare - £12k is more than enough to have paid. Although we are up in the North so prices may slightly vary. What is your surface type and how many tonnes did you put on top of the membrane. We don't stitch or seal membrane and it never pokes through. My OH says its down to the quantity of finished surface applied to the school. Lumpy stone under the membrane is OK.

Hope this helps.

 

[mik]

OMG I didn't realise it was that bad, hell.... Cat I am so sorry, what a nightmare. Really I am so sorry.

 

[catembi]

Surface type is cushionride i.e. woodchip. Don't know how much was put down in tonnes.

But the thing is, it rides deep/shallow because there are high/low bits. Is it just because the surface has lost its 'knit' as it has degenerated?

It used to be all large 'chunks' but it has now turned into finer dusty stuff.

Are you **sure** that the lumps n bumps under the membrane are okay?

If the stone base really doesn't need re-levelling, then I shall finish my sewing (v muted 'yay') and then get another load of cushionride type stuff dumped on it for now.

My ultimate aim is sand with rubber crumb - won't that ride deep/shallow if the base is unlevel? The mainland aggregates website (they do the products for arenas) 'how to build an arena' sheet says that a good digger driver should be able to get the surface level within a tolerance of 5 mm... My o/h thinks that 5 cm is more likely, but their site def says 5 mm....

Arrrgggghhhh, why didn't I just have done with it & get a Charles Britton or smiliar...??

T x

 

[Booboos]

I don't mean to be rude to the other poster's OH but in my experience any lumps, bumps or unlevelness in the hardcore are reflected in the finished surface, you simply cannot level out the hardcore problems, you just reflect them in the surface by having deep and shallow parts or by having a slope.

Just overlap the membranes by about a foot and use the blowtorch in between the two membranes (be very careful not to get burnt!!!). Go easy at first until you get an idea of the amount of heat required but you will feel the two sides getting stuck. It's a bit like ironing only you put the heat in between the two sheets rather than above both.

 

[HappyNeds]

I've just shown my partner this thread - he builds sand schools/arenas and they are proven to be good. I ride on one he put in over 10 years ago - it has been topped up with surface but its good.

These drainage pipes must be linked for the water to flow through (obviously) and then linked again directly into a pipe leading to a drain or soakaway. If the drainage doesn't work you'll have a majorly wet, puddly school. I'd have a chat with your man when he gets back after the weekend.

OP what a nightmare - £12k is more than enough to have paid. Although we are up in the North so prices may slightly vary. What is your surface type and how many tonnes did you put on top of the membrane. We don't stitch or seal membrane and it never pokes through. My OH says its down to the quantity of finished surface applied to the school. Lumpy stone under the membrane is OK.

Hope this helps.

Thank you kathantoinette, your partner's opinion on this is much appreciated. But my heart sinks at the thought of the difficult conversation on Monday where we ask our contractor to take back up the stone at the joins and put connectors in instead. However, after seeing OP's photos, it just reinforces to me why it has to be right first time - and I need to 'man up' and make sure it's done exactly how it should be at this stage, rather than several years down the line when it's too late.

Why oh why can't people just do the good job they are paid to do?

catembi - I've been reading the other posts on your thread and it seems like others have some good suggestions, I do hope your membrane can be heat sealed to save you 9 days of hard labour.

 

[brighteyes]

If your arena drains are not fully functional, it's a waste of money putting a single thing on top of them. Likewise your stones - they need to be washed and angular and level and compact.

Any membrane needs securing at the edges and a good overlap. Mine were taped. A non-degenerating, correctly maintained surface of the right depth for the type of materials used should hold the membrane down.

Has your surface contaminated the drainage stone with the movement of the membrane? If so, beware of throwing good money after bad and 'topping' up the current disaster. The base material beneath the membrane does indeed need to be level or you'll likely end up with more membrane troubles (rips) and even a lame horse.

Uncover the stone a distance from the drain outlet and run water directly onto the stone to see if the drains are operating and go from there.

I have had a full surfeace peel-back after the membrane blocked. My stone and drains were clear and clean. It took a week and the original surface was re-laid and has riden perfectly since.

 

[catembi]

BE, I think that the overlap has saved the stone layer from being contaminated. The school never puddles, even in extreme weather. None of the surface has gone further under the overlap than the width of the overlap, IYSWIM.

We have no money as we've had to have the roof taken off the house as it was structurally unsound (which is a whole other thread!), but it did actually ride *perfectly* (apart from the odd bit of membrane popping up) for around 2 1/2 years, so I think we'll HAVE to chuck some more woodchip on it, which would probs hold it for another 2 years til we've got some money again.

I might be getting a wind-up lump sum from a pension before xmas, so if I do, it should cover getting the base re-levelled & replacing the membrane.

What a PITA though... & my hands are ****ed, if you'll excuse the language!

T x

 

[cremedemonthe]

One of these might be easier, it's a curved mattress needle.You're using a counter lining (panel) needle which require more effort.

Curved mattress needles

PM your address and I'll send you a few of different sizes.If you still find it hard on your fingers and you are not already using one, use a ribbed thimble to push it through and small pair of pliers to pull it through.
Although it would be very hard work I think I'd be tempted to dig the membrane out and run it through the machine, would save alot of sewing by hand!
Oz

 

[catembi]

Oh thank you - that's so kind of you!

I don't have a machine, & I don't think my mum's ancient sewing machine would appreciate a few miles (it feels like...) of membrane!

I am using a piece of rock that's made its way thru the membrane (one of many...) as a 'thimble', have electrical tape on my index & middle fingers to protect them & have one of my weight training gloves with a thick padded & double leather palm on my right hand to help push the needle thru as it *really* doesn't want to go!

My hands are ****ed - v sadly I had to sell my much-loved piano to pay for work on the house (which we also did ourselves... scrambling about putting on a new roof in winter...) but if I was still playing my piano coach would be having 50 fits at the state of them!

T x

 

[cremedemonthe]

OK thanks for address you sent me I'll get the needles sorted for you tomorrow, glad to be of some help!
Oz

PS if you were nearer and could get the membrane up I'd run it through a machine, I only have about 5!

 

[Ilovefoals]

Catembi - your situation is a little like mine. We moved into a house 3yrs ago with ready made school which looked perfect. However, it had barely been used and once we started to ride on it, it became evident there were problems. The surface which was big square woodchips was awful and we spent weeks removing it by hand with rakes, shovels and wheelbarrows as we could think of no other way to lift it without disturbing the membrane and stone foundation. However, we discovered there is no membrane! Luckily our drainage is good and we've never had any issue with puddles etc but the stones are rising up through our surface all the time and it's so infuriating. We also had just spent £20k on fixing our roof before winter arrives and so have no money to sort the school. We also need more surface added to top up what's there but again we have no money to do it. It's so frustrating

 

[PennyJ]

Catembi, I helped in the making of a couple of maneges friends of mine were having done a few years back now (sand/rubber surfaces though) and we joined the lengths of membrane by using glue. I think it was just a regular PVA type one from the builders merchants. Certainly there was about a foot overlap on each strip. Might sound a bit wacky, but at the time it was a case of all hands on deck to get the membrane ready in time to receive the sand (several large lorry loads), we were working down the menage glueing as the lorries tipped their loads and a digger spread it. Rather frantic.

Just thought that would save you a lot of time, backbreaking effort and pricked fingers. What a nightmare for you. As far as I know, neither menage is suffering in any way, they must both have been down for about 5 years now.

 

[wench]

Do you know who manufactured the membrane? If so you could ring them up and ask best way of attaching it together

 

[diluteherd]

so sorry, not got a lot of experience in maneges... I have a half built one but due to family politics its now covered in caravans and rubbish

Ive given up on it, so now just buy youngsters to entertain me - I now get a massive amount of grief about the amount I have, truth is if I had somewhere I could ride and school, there probably wouldnt be so many hooves around - im happy to even pay for it, I have the money sitting burning a hole in my pocket!! lol (just so you dont think Im grumpy cos mum and dad wont splash out!!)

Hope things all get sorted for you!!