Withers

[LEC]

There is a big trend on social media pulling up eventers over their physiques because of the shark fin wither especially in eventers saying it’s unhealthy.

I just don’t get what they are after? I want to know what they think a fit horse looks like who can gallop 4 miles and finish fresh with fat and strong topline?

The problem is shit like this sticks and they are currently bombarding FEI pages.

 

[j1ffy]

Ah the classic 'draw some lines on a photo so it looks scientific' tactic!

My excellent equine physio is also Tom McEwen's physio. I'm pretty sure if there was a genuine issue it would have been picked up as these horses have very frequent treatments from her and various other practitioners. I'm not sure I'll listen to an equine massage therapist over her... (ref the Insta name on the second-last photo)

 

[Barton Bounty]

I wouldnt say shark fin withers are bad per say but that top picture … the horse is lacking top line. Athletic or not it should have some muscle there and there is none , there is a definite dip.

 

[stangs]

I wouldnt say shark fin withers are bad per say but that top picture … the horse is lacking top line. Athletic or not it should have some muscle there and there is none , there is a definite dip.

Horse is working at the top of levels of the sport… I’m pretty sure it’s got enough top line.

Some horse’s conformation is such that you can’t completely fill up the dip. If you wanted to make a judgement, you’d have to compare it to what it looked like when it was broken.

 

[sportsmansB]

I had an event horse with withers like this, and when she was fit and running she had a dip. The only time it went away a bit was when she was carrying weight on holidays. She was plenty fit and strong enough for the work she was doing, she just had a lot of TB blood and it was the shape of her.

 

[meleeka]

So these athletes, at the top of their sport aren’t made correctly because of their whither shape? How absurd!

 

[LEC]

Funnily enough this prompted me to look at endurance horses who funnily enough have the same topline profile. I also looked at Tevis cup as I think the Americans are actually very good at the horse care in endurance and yep similar profiles.
The thing is the wither is the balancing bridge for horses to lift and jump. You rarely see flat withers on a horse who can move or jump.

I also think there is a big issue about people not looking at truly fit horses much. They just don’t know how they should look. Especially around sports where the horse needs to be fast and run a distance.

 

[stangs]

There is a big trend on social media pulling up eventers over their physiques because of the shark fin wither especially in eventers saying it’s unhealthy.

I just don’t get what they are after? I want to know what they think a fit horse looks like who can gallop 4 miles and finish fresh with fat and strong topline?

The problem is shit like this sticks and they are currently bombarding FEI pages.

I remember nodding along to these posts (I was not particularly intelligent) back when I was still on IG, maybe 5 years ago now. I’m amazed that the trend’s ongoing.

I do think that critically considering the top level of the sport is never a bad idea, but ‘critically’ implies some nuance - in this case, that horses have different shapes - which gets lost as one message is chosen and repeated.

Having said that, you see a lot of upside down endurance horses so I don’t think saying they have the same shape is going to help your point much.

 

[j1ffy]

Funnily enough this prompted me to look at endurance horses who funnily enough have the same topline profile. I also looked at Tevis cup as I think the Americans are actually very good at the horse care in endurance and yep similar profiles.
The thing is the wither is the balancing bridge for horses to lift and jump. You rarely see flat withers on a horse who can move or jump.

I also think there is a big issue about people not looking at truly fit horses much. They just don’t know how they should look.

Lol - I did exactly the same. And racehorses. There are some that don't have the dip and are a generally 'rounder' profile but many have similar shark-fin withers. Also if you scroll through eventers' pages you can see that the younger / lower level horses are rounder with less prominent withers, it's only as they get to the fitness levels required at the top levels that they look sharper and with a dip.

 

[millitiger]

Absolutely bonkers.

I was actually a bit concerned about my horse last week- his withers are definitely more prominent BUT I then gave my head a wobble and reminded myself he is fitter than he has ever been, is working really well under eagle eyed trainers and regularly sees his physio.

 

[meleeka]

Absolutely bonkers.

I was actually a bit concerned about my horse last week- his withers are definitely more prominent BUT I then gave my head a wobble and reminded myself he is fitter than he has ever been, is working really well under eagle eyed trainers and regularly sees his physio.

Exactly! it’s like saying Mo Farah’s feet are too small .

 

[millitiger]

Exactly! it’s like saying Mo Farah’s feet are too small .

Precisely
I was watching a triathlon on telly the other week and marvelled to my partner how prominent the spines were on 50% of the athletes ( they were hunched over their bikes at the time).
It doesn't mean there was anything wrong with them, just that they have low body fat % and a musculature that makes some bony structures more visible.

 

[smolmaus]

Exactly! it’s like saying Mo Farah’s feet are too small .

I was going to make this point too, but with Michael Phelps and his "too-long" arms. Full 3 inches longer than they should be!! Someone do something!

 

[meleeka]

I was going to make this point too, but with Michael Phelps and his "too-long" arms. Full 3 inches longer than they should be!! Someone do something!

And it’s all the fault of the governing body for swimming, obviously he shouldn’t be allowed to compete

 

[RachelFerd]

Oh wait, let's take a bunch of show cobs eventing, because clearly with their wither-less appearance they'll be much better at it.

I'm sick of the "drawing lines on photos to make it look scientific" contingent. So much total rubbish getting spouted on social media that draws so many people in...

 

[LEC]

But we also can’t dismiss it, it needs to be countered through education.

 

[millitiger]

But we also can’t dismiss it, it needs to be countered through education.

I'm not sure how you educate the originator of the posts.
I do think there could be more awareness of these horses being seen as athletes- perhaps there does need to be more comparison to show these are the elite level horses and should be compared to marathon runners etc in terms of body composition?
People who haven't seen elite horses up close, can be surprised how different they look to an RC pony or a leisure horse and they can look skinny- likewise we know not to compare Mo Farah to someone doing Park Run?
I know normally we try to steer clear of anthropologising horses but it can be helpful for non-horsey people

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

My last horse had the most monumental withers I have ever seen - some horses are just built like that.. have fun in your endeavour to fill his dip!! (yes he was under/incorrectly muscled in both photos, but you can see clearly that he was conformationally always going to have a dip, and did even when he was competing AM dressage)
Madness that with all the rubbish going on in the world, these people have nothing better to have as a cause than fit, lean event horses who complete at the highest level.
You don't see them shouting 'but think of the topline' when they're watching them clear a huge upright at Badminton....

 

[Burnttoast]

I'm barely qualified to comment as my experience with horses at the top of their respective sports (eventing and endurance) was limited and a long while ago but I must admit a few of the pictures I've seen where toplines are being criticised look a bit lighter than I would expect (and presumably look leaner in real life, if the camera adds pounds). Maybe it's a breeding thing, but there was more TB in the horses I worked with than I believe is common now (in eventing anyway). This was during the long format era though, so possibly more topline was required for a long x-country day carrying a rider - and the horses spent relatively little time in the school, hacked extensively, did hillwork, none of it in gadgets except side reins for lunging, and I very rarely saw one ridden behind the vertical - that was frowned upon.

 

[j1ffy]

I'm not sure how you educate the originator of the posts.
I do think there could be more awareness of these horses being seen as athletes- perhaps there does need to be more comparison to show these are the elite level horses and should be compared to marathon runners etc in terms of body composition?
People who haven't seen elite horses up close, can be surprised how different they look to an RC pony or a leisure horse and they can look skinny- likewise we know not to compare Mo Farah to someone doing Park Run?
I know normally we try to steer clear of anthropologising horses but it can be helpful for non-horsey people

The 'AB Equine Therapy' lady addresses that in one of her posts - she says marathon runners don't have to carry a human. I do think a level of anthropomorphising can help with the non-horsey population but ultimately we need the FEI and federations to coordinate communications and run campaigns that reach a broader population than the people who are already interested in horse sports. Animal rights groups are currently more sophisticated and better funded (from a marketing perspective), I wonder how this can be addressed?

 

[millitiger]

The 'AB Equine Therapy' lady addresses that in one of her posts - she says marathon runners don't have to carry a human. I do think a level of anthropomorphising can help with the non-horsey population but ultimately we need the FEI and federations to coordinate communications and run campaigns that reach a broader population than the people who are already interested in horse sports. Animal rights groups are currently more sophisticated and better funded (from a marketing perspective), I wonder how this can be addressed?

Absolutely agree, the FEI and country federations need to start having an appropriate budget for showcasing horse sports to the rest of the world and countering this sort of rhetoric.
I'm not sure a load of horsey people rowing on Instagram 'unofficially' is the best way to tackle it- the powers that be need to wake up!

 

[ihatework]

It’s bloody scarey how many internet wally’s cannot tell a fit athlete apart from an underweight/malnourished horse.

 

[Cherryblossom]

My horse had a month long holiday from mid June, and one of the things I wanted to work on when she came back into work was her top line. When I first looked at her my initial reaction was to think she’d grown and strengthened a bit while on holiday, as the dip had improved. It was only when I went to tack her up and her girth was 4 inches off fastening that I realised that, far from getting stronger with a break and time on a track, she’d learned to whinney each time my house sitter opened the front door and had trained the poor girl to provide endless hay!

 

[dottylottie]

sorry, what are withers? *laughs in welsh pony*

in all seriousness, i think the majority of owners now are far too used to seeing fat horses, and dogs for that matter. any working animal can’t afford to be carrying around extra fat if it’s to safely do it’s job!

 

[beatrice]

I've also seen alot of these posts on IG and wonder if they may have a point when it comes to wither clearance for saddles. Appreciate fitting saddles to these types of back wouldn't be straight forward but i can't help but think that if they were better, the topline of some may improve (by topline i mean muscle not fat!).

 

[TPO]

It’s bloody scarey how many internet wally’s cannot tell a fit athlete apart from an underweight/malnourished horse.

Equally as scary is the amount of owners with underweight and/or incorrectly muscled/not muscled horses who think that they look like fit eventers...

The average everyday rider/owner shouldn't have horses looking like that.
The nuance that is missed is that these aren't just eventers, these are 5* peak fitness eventers. They *are* going to look different for part of the year. Once they've been let down/roughed off for a holiday they'll look different again.

 

[Squeak]

sorry, what are withers? *laughs in welsh pony*

in all seriousness, i think the majority of owners now are far too used to seeing fat horses, and dogs for that matter. any working animal can’t afford to be carrying around extra fat if it’s to safely do it’s job!

I think this is really key. The amount of people who have told me my tb looks good at the moment and are taken aback when I say no, he's too fat. The same people are also the ones who have roasted me in the past when he's dropped off slightly in the winter - he's been by no means skinny and personally I think it's healthier to be skinnier than fatter (obviously there is a happy medium that's ideal) but it's worrying how many people see a fat horse as a healthy horse.

 

[Birker2020]

There is a reason that horses have a dip above their withers apparently. https://www.manitobacooperator.ca/livestock/reading-the-withers/

If the lower “S” part of the neck or its base falls forward as a result of weak muscle development in this region, it causes the base of the neck to drop. Due to the sophisticated “hookup” with the withers the poorly supported base of the neck “falls” and draws the topline down creating a “dip” in the front part of the withers. This dip can be noted across all groups of horses from broodmares through to high-event sport horses. The prominence of the dip varies amongst individual horses and its presence is comparable to the human “slouch” of poor posture.

Poor development of these muscles that sling the base of the neck can come about when a horse lives a sedentary life and lacks condition. However, this dip can also arise as a consequence of various handling techniques or work that does not cultivate the elevation of the base of the neck, balance and self-carriage. Over time the shape and health of the withers are strongly influenced by the movement patterns of the horse, handler/rider contact and lifestyle.

 

[SEL]

Being fit doesn't always equate to great posture though

Education can go both ways

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Being fit doesn't always equate to great posture though

Education can go both ways

I don't disagree with you, but if these 5* eventers are performing as required, at the level required, with no significant injury.. then I am not sure why their horses posture is any of our business? I wouldn't think it was my problem to discuss WFP's horses posture, as much as I wouldn't think it was my business what posture your horse has, or CDJ or the woman next door to me on my livery yard.