Withers

[ycbm]

Nor is running wild like mustangs and Brumbys…. It’s a human construct of what is desirable.

As I have said nobody can find a good example of 5* fit and well muscled.

Plenty of fit racehorses on ROR that don't have the atrophy of that eventer.

Charisma, no pit behind and no big dip in front of the wither.



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[LEC]

Plenty of fit racehorses on ROR that don't have the atrophy of that eventer.

Charisma, no pit behind and no big dip in front of the wither.

View attachment 120689
View attachment 120690
Definitely a dip on Campino at the bottom behind the scapular. The FB groups would then be saying the saddle at the top didn’t fit…horse at the top with no bridle is Leonidas.

 

[ycbm]

Definitely a dip on Campino at the bottom behind the scapular

I don't think so, I'm viewing the original high definition shot on a 12 inch tablet and blowing it up to focus in on it and it's just shading. Nothing like the pit of atrophy that seems to be on the first horse.
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[sbloom]

I saw a good post from a therapist on this very topic (there have been quite a few but I think many would be dismissed by several posters on here) but am useless with Insta so here's their page on there https://www.instagram.com/abequinetherapy/

 

[RachelFerd]

I saw a good post from a therapist on this very topic (there have been quite a few but I think many would be dismissed by several posters on here) but am useless with Insta so here's their page on there https://www.instagram.com/abequinetherapy/

What I can't stand about this type of account is that most of the original content is just someone doing some very low level low key riding with a not particularly fit looking horse. Show me some content where they've got a horse fit, well muscled and performing at a high level - and then I'll take their critique a lot more seriously. I agree that there are some poor examples in amongst their screenshots - but I'm not being shown a genuine path forwards by this type of account. Plus, seems like yet another "pay me loads of £££ and I'll tell you my secrets in this online course" type of deal - a red flag for me.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Funnily enough this prompted me to look at endurance horses who funnily enough have the same topline profile. I also looked at Tevis cup as I think the Americans are actually very good at the horse care in endurance and yep similar profiles.
The thing is the wither is the balancing bridge for horses to lift and jump. You rarely see flat withers on a horse who can move or jump.

I also think there is a big issue about people not looking at truly fit horses much. They just don’t know how they should look. Especially around sports where the horse needs to be fast and run a distance.

I have an Arab that has a wither profile more like a TB and I struggled for years to get a show saddle to fit him, I then just got a dressage saddle that fitted him and just did shows in that

 

[LEC]

I saw a good post from a therapist on this very topic (there have been quite a few but I think many would be dismissed by several posters on here) but am useless with Insta so here's their page on there https://www.instagram.com/abequinetherapy/

They are using Zoe as the example of poor. Now obvs I saw Zoe for the first time last week as never seen her before in a trot up and so close. My first comment was she is much more chunky than I was expecting. My second comment was I can see why Gaspard has got her so fit now.

Tbh body workers is the current Wild West for me at the moment with horses. A space for the inadequate trained online for a few days to spout their opinion and say they are qualified. Draw a few lines on a horse and say it’s bad. There is zero regulation on body workers and their qualifications and it’s all coming out now. Pay for their course through mass hysteria when the reality is they are experienced with cobs or fat horses.

I have become more convinced as this has rumbled on how much absolute bullshit is being spouted in the name of internet hysteria by unqualified people with zero experience in competitive and fit horses.

 

[ycbm]

They are using Zoe as the example of poor. Now obvs I saw Zoe for the first time last week as never seen her before in a trot up and so close. My first comment was she is much more chunky than I was expecting. My second comment was I can see why Gaspard has got her so fit now.

Tbh body workers is the current Wild West for me at the moment with horses. A space for the inadequate trained online for a few days to spout their opinion and say they are qualified. Draw a few lines on a horse and say it’s bad. There is zero regulation on body workers and their qualifications and it’s all coming out now. Pay for their course through mass hysteria when the reality is they are experienced with cobs or fat horses.

I have become more convinced as this has rumbled on how much absolute bullshit is being spouted in the name of internet hysteria by unqualified people with zero experience in competitive and fit horses.

I agree with you. I get particularly disturbed by seeing the muscle definition in the hind end which is present in almost any TB and every half way fit and not fat horse as "muscle wastage". They are filling paddocks with horses whose owners are feeding to remove "poverty lines" which are nothing of the sort.
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[quizzie]

They are using Zoe as the example of poor. Now obvs I saw Zoe for the first time last week as never seen her before in a trot up and so close. My first comment was she is much more chunky than I was expecting. My second comment was I can see why Gaspard has got her so fit now.

Tbh body workers is the current Wild West for me at the moment with horses. A space for the inadequate trained online for a few days to spout their opinion and say they are qualified. Draw a few lines on a horse and say it’s bad. There is zero regulation on body workers and their qualifications and it’s all coming out now. Pay for their course through mass hysteria when the reality is they are experienced with cobs or fat horses.

I have become more convinced as this has rumbled on how much absolute bullshit is being spouted in the name of internet hysteria by unqualified people with zero experience in competitive and fit horses.

I would suggest that many of them could benefit from comprehensive instruction in the origin and insertions of all the muscles of horses, together with the fascial planes and ligamentous attachments ( with particular reference to the nuchal ligament ) , and how they relate to the equine skeleton at rest and in movement.

The vast majority of what is being called muscle deficit or ”atrophy” is where very fit horses have lost the fat infill between the muscles, resulting in much more defined picture…..ie a fit horse! You can’t have atrophy of a muscle that doesn’t exist!

 

[Jellymoon]

Ok, so I’ve read all of this, and I’m kind of in two minds about it but, at the end of the day, is it actually cruel to have a horse looking like this? Or is it just unsightly? Can anyone prove that it will be experiencing pain and won’t stay sound long term due to a whither of this shape, compared to a horse with a more ‘attractive’ looking whither?

 

[Cloball]

The internet give people opportunity to use a some acquired knowledge and to blanket apply it regardless of how appropriate the circumstances.

Have any physics who work with 5star horses commented or are they staying out of the fray? Could this be damaging to their reputation?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

What I can't stand about this type of account is that most of the original content is just someone doing some very low level low key riding with a not particularly fit looking horse. Show me some content where they've got a horse fit, well muscled and performing at a high level - and then I'll take their critique a lot more seriously. I agree that there are some poor examples in amongst their screenshots - but I'm not being shown a genuine path forwards by this type of account. Plus, seems like yet another "pay me loads of £££ and I'll tell you my secrets in this online course" type of deal - a red flag for me.

100% this.
This links to a post on a TPO thread on credibility: who has it, how do you evaluate it. I’ve often followed accounts of people who turn out to be - at best - well meaning ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ folk. But are often are more about self promotion and holier than thou pronouncements in areas they just don’t know enough about. The nh world is also full of this!

I no longer listen to anyone who has not walked the walk alongside talking the talk. It’s reduced my ‘following’ numbers considerably once I started actually looking at what people have done with their own horses or who they have trained!

 

[Squeak]

I agree with you. I get particularly disturbed by seeing the muscle definition in the hind end which is present in almost any TB and every half way fit and not fat horse as "muscle wastage". They are filling paddocks with horses whose owners are feeding to remove "poverty lines" which are nothing of the sort.
.

Oh dear, I hadn't heard this one yet. My TB absolutely ripples with muscle as soon as he is half way fit (think Popeye ) and so gets significant muscle definition on his hind end. I'm going to get slaughtered!

 

[LEC]

Ok, so I’ve read all of this, and I’m kind of in two minds about it but, at the end of the day, is it actually cruel to have a horse looking like this? Or is it just unsightly? Can anyone prove that it will be experiencing pain and won’t stay sound long term due to a whither of this shape, compared to a horse with a more ‘attractive’ looking whither?

It’s unsightly because we prefer and are used to well rounded horses.

 

[TPO]

I would suggest that many of them could benefit from comprehensive instruction in the origin and insertions of all the muscles of horses, together with the fascial planes and ligamentous attachments ( with particular reference to the nuchal ligament ) , and how they relate to the equine skeleton at rest and in movement.

The vast majority of what is being called muscle deficit or ”atrophy” is where very fit horses have lost the fat infill between the muscles, resulting in much more defined picture…..ie a fit horse! You can’t have atrophy of a muscle that doesn’t exist!

Can you please enlighten me as to what insertion and origin points are in the "dips"?* There are points along the rhombodeus (sp!) but they are ventral to to "dips"/ atrophies shown in some of the pictures.

There are definitely deep and superficial muscles over the areas that have raised concerns with some, and there isn't a "between muscles" junction that I know of.

*not being facetious. What you've said contradicts what I "know". Just about to go into a meeting, but Idragged out my big text book [from when I trained to be one of those idiot bodyworkers] before i left for it and from a quick flick through it backs up what I think I know.

The account sbloom links is the same one LEC posted about in #1.

As I said had no awareness that this was a "thing". Pretty fed up of the "if you're not a 5* eventer you can't have an opinion" stance [on all issues] and the "top completion horses get the best of care" because most of us know of popular pros who we'd never let horses go to because of what happens behind closed doors.

The SM account lost credibility monetising something they supposedly care about. Yes they have to make a living but it just do4snt sit right to stir up a hoo Haa ans then say "pay me to find out more"

 

[Ample Prosecco]

@TPO it’s a balance I think. You don’t need to be 5* - or even to compete at all - to have an opinion and to be very knowledgeable. But equally a girl who used to be on my yard knows nothing. Nothing! Clueless beyond. But to look at her social media you’d think she was an expert on horse training. How to tell your clueless numpty from your established expert in the social media world where you can develop a following and a reputation based on nothing much.

 

[quizzie]

Can you please enlighten me as to what insertion and origin points are in the "dips"?* There are points along the rhombodeus (sp!) but they are ventral to to "dips"/ atrophies shown in some of the pictures.

There are definitely deep and superficial muscles over the areas that have raised concerns with some, and there isn't a "between muscles" junction that I know of.

*not being facetious. What you've said contradicts what I "know". Just about to go into a meeting, but Idragged out my big text book [from when I trained to be one of those idiot bodyworkers] before i left for it and from a quick flick through it backs up what I think I know.

There are different types of muscles involved, some flat/sheet-like with very little bulk and usually multiple points of attachment to the skeleton, there are other big/bulky muscles which do the big movements which may have single points of origin and insertion. All muscles have a fascia coating them, so there are potential gaps between each specific muscle where fat can be laid down. Fat is also extensively laid down around the nuchal ligament, forming the "crest" of the neck. Together, these muscles and the fat deposits along with the individual skeleton shape ( often high withered in these cases)..... make up the shape that we see externally.

The best book I can point you to would be Peter Popesko "Atlas of Topographical Anatomy of the domestic animals"....which shows progressive dissection down through the layers in several different planes to enable a 3D understanding of the anatomy.

If you are really interested then I would approach your local equine vets and ask if they know of any way you can observe a post mortem, or even an equine slaughterhouse where you could observe all these structures in "real time". There is no substitute for actually seeing how things work first hand!

 

[SEL]

100% this.
This links to a post on a TPO thread on credibility: who has it, how do you evaluate it. I’ve often followed accounts of people who turn out to be - at best - well meaning ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ folk. But are often are more about self promotion and holier than thou pronouncements in areas they just don’t know enough about. The nh world is also full of this!

I no longer listen to anyone who has not walked the walk alongside talking the talk. It’s reduced my ‘following’ numbers considerably once I started actually looking at what people have done with their own horses or who they have trained!

You see I think this is a pretty arrogant approach (& you don't normally come across like that to me).

Yes I agree that 18yo Instagram friendly susie_world_class_eventer needs taking with a pinch of salt, and tbh the posts linked above in #1 and Sblooms really don't do anyone any favours, but two of the top class physios I know don't ride any longer and another happily hacks on her *fat* cob. I respect their opinion and they are certainly working with horses and owners whose experience far outweighs anyone on here. Are those horses biomechnically perfect? No. In fact it is a big frustration with at least one of the physios that her post treatment stretches etc are rarely done - but then we've had the debate on here many a time about how hard grooms are worked and poorly they are paid so its not really a surprise. Working at that level is a skill in itself - especially those out at the big events. The last thing anyone wants is a well meaning bodyworker loosening up muscles just before a vet inspection without understanding the impact.

Its actually been quite hard to find fit high level eventers stood up square - those aren't the money shots for the photographers. I did see one a little while back of Kylie Roddy on her grey where I thought he looked well muscled, but zero chance of finding it again.

Wither shape is very dependent on breed. I wouldn't expect to see the same shape with even a fat TB as I would with my relatively fit Dales pony. A friend competed over 40km endurance at the weekend on her *fat* cob and he's never had withers to speak of. Saddle fit has been a nightmare. BUT anything that dips in front of the withers needs investigating (& there's plenty of articles on line by people you probably would respect about that) and equally anything that bulges there also has a problem. For me shark fin withers would depend on the work the horse was doing, its age, breed etc.

My young cob's withers are too pointy for his breed, but are fine where he is in his development especially as he is weak behind. If he still looks like both front legs are coming from the same socket in 12 months I need to get off my backside and do better by him, irrespective of whether he can gallop for 2 hours or not. TBH that's one of the reasons I find threads like this quite frustrating - don't people want to know if their horse is working and muscling up correctly? Don't people want to do better by their horses?

Wanders off to fat cob land.

 

[LEC]

@TPO it’s a balance I think. You don’t need to be 5* - or even to compete at all - to have an opinion and to be very knowledgeable. But equally a girl who used to be on my yard knows nothing. Nothing! Clueless beyond. But to look at her social media you’d think she was an expert on horse training. How to tell your clueless numpty from your established expert in the social media world where you can develop a following and a reputation based on nothing much.

But that’s always been the same on here and this was one of the very first places to pop up. There are tonnes of posters I just scroll past on here but I also appreciate that by writing things down people learn. Being blunt, do I really care about people doing walk and trot tests, and the answer is no. I have zero interest in cobs, showing, TREC etc I take a passing look at the Joe Midgely stuff but have been around the block a lot and there is always someone ‘new’, horses haven’t fundamentally changed it’s just the way it’s communicated which alters and how people choose to absorb it. It doesn’t diminish what people choose to share or have an opinion about, it’s just personal preference about whether you choose to pay attention and engage.

If I am going to be really blunt, I should add that all opinions and comments do not share the same weight. I do discount peoples opinions if only competed at 70cm and offering advice on someone competing at 1.10m. Just like my opinions are probably gently nudged by from my professional friends competing at 4/5*. I haven’t got the experience or understanding at that level though I can certainly spot things and comment on them.

 

[TPO]

But that’s always been the same on here and this was one of the very first places to pop up. There are tonnes of posters I just scroll past on here but I also appreciate that by writing things down people learn. Being blunt, do I really care about people doing walk and trot tests, and the answer is no. I have zero interest in cobs, showing, TREC etc I take a passing look at the Joe Midgely stuff but have been around the block a lot and there is always someone ‘new’, horses haven’t fundamentally changed it’s just the way it’s communicated which alters and how people choose to absorb it. It doesn’t diminish what people choose to share or have an opinion about, it’s just personal preference about whether you choose to pay attention and engage.

If I am going to be really blunt, I should add that all opinions and comments do not share the same weight. I do discount peoples opinions if only competed at 70cm and offering advice on someone competing at 1.10m. Just like my opinions are probably gently nudged by from my professional friends competing at 4/5*. I haven’t got the experience or understanding at that level though I can certainly spot things and comment on them.

I think I usually get your points, but I absolutely don't with this post.

Edited - I do now. There's a paragraph missing from your post that appeared when I quoted?

 

[quizzie]

Try this…..


7 is the nuchal ligament,and 10 are the nuchal laminae attaching it down to the cervical spine between the axis (2) and the vertical process of the 3rd thoracic vertebra(8).

In a horse with a more prominant wither( made up of the spinous/vertical processes of the vertebrae) the nuchal ligament is inevitably going to be bound down to a greater or lesser extent in front of the wither…..you can see how short the vertical process of the 1st thoracic vertebra(4) is in comparison.

There are a multitude of major and minor muscles that then clad this area, but the shape of the skeleton to which they attach will dictate the shape we see externally which is then modified by fatness/fitness/muscle tension/positioning etc etc.

 

[TPO]

There are different types of muscles involved, some flat/sheet-like with very little bulk and usually multiple points of attachment to the skeleton, there are other big/bulky muscles which do the big movements which may have single points of origin and insertion. All muscles have a fascia coating them, so there are potential gaps between each specific muscle where fat can be laid down. Fat is also extensively laid down around the nuchal ligament, forming the "crest" of the neck. Together, these muscles and the fat deposits along with the individual skeleton shape ( often high withered in these cases)..... make up the shape that we see externally.

The best book I can point you to would be Peter Popesko "Atlas of Topographical Anatomy of the domestic animals"....which shows progressive dissection down through the layers in several different planes to enable a 3D understanding of the anatomy.

If you are really interested then I would approach your local equine vets and ask if they know of any way you can observe a post mortem, or even an equine slaughterhouse where you could observe all these structures in "real time". There is no substitute for actually seeing how things work first hand!

Yip, I get all that and have been at [only] one post mortem.

I don't understand the specifics of what muscles, insertion & origin points are causing the "dips" that are related to atrophy and/or under/mis development.

I have an understanding of anatomy, but far from an expert, including skeleton, muscles, ligaments and fascia but I don't understand the specifics of your previous post.

You rightly said that people should know before offering opinions. What I think I know contradicts what you have posted. So what do you know specifically about the dips/atrophy that's being discussed that I'm totally missing?

 

[TPO]

Try this…..
View attachment 121083

7 is the nuchal ligament,and 10 are the nuchal laminae attaching it down to the cervical spine between the axis (2) and the vertical process of the 3rd thoracic vertebra(8).

In a horse with a more prominant wither( made up of the spinous/vertical processes of the vertebrae) the nuchal ligament is inevitably going to be bound down to a greater or lesser extent in front of the wither…..you can see how short the vertical process of the 1st thoracic vertebra(4) is in comparison.

There are a multitude of major and minor muscles that then clad this area, but the shape of the skeleton to which they attach will dictate the shape we see externally which is then modified by fatness/fitness/muscle tension/positioning etc etc.

Cross posted

I have similar books and what not showing identical illustrations and photos.

 

[quizzie]

Cross posted

I have similar books and what not showing identical illustrations and photos.

So..... do you understand my explanation re the skeletal shape? Muscles/ligaments can only attach where the skeleton is...

The diagram is of a standard generic horse, a lot of horses will be much more extreme in their skeletal shape.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

My last horse had the most monumental withers I have ever seen - some horses are just built like that.. have fun in your endeavour to fill his dip!! (yes he was under/incorrectly muscled in both photos, but you can see clearly that he was conformationally always going to have a dip, and did even when he was competing AM dressage)
Madness that with all the rubbish going on in the world, these people have nothing better to have as a cause than fit, lean event horses who complete at the highest level.
You don't see them shouting 'but think of the topline' when they're watching them clear a huge upright at Badminton....


View attachment 120549View attachment 120550

That looks like muscle wastage to me which is normally caused by the saddle being to narrow in the front, its not natural to have hollows either side of the wither.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

That looks like muscle wastage to me which is normally caused by the saddle being to narrow in the front, its not natural to have hollows either side of the wither.

Quite the contrary - for the few years prior to this photo he was ridden in a much too wide saddle that sat on his withers by the person who owned him before I took him on.

This was about 6 months later, and with a fitted saddle - better but I'd still say he's not 'full' around the withers. I don't that conformationally he ever would look well muscled there due to the size of his withers, but I may be wrong, who knows. He monumentally broke before I could really find out.

 

[quizzie]

Yip, I get all that and have been at [only] one post mortem.

I don't understand the specifics of what muscles, insertion & origin points are causing the "dips" that are related to atrophy and/or under/mis development.

I have an understanding of anatomy, but far from an expert, including skeleton, muscles, ligaments and fascia but I don't understand the specifics of your previous post.

You rightly said that people should know before offering opinions. What I think I know contradicts what you have posted. So what do you know specifically about the dips/atrophy that's being discussed that I'm totally missing?

In the "dipped" area in front of the wither, above T1 ,you have ( amongst others I've probably missed) : the cervical rhomboid muscle, splenius cervicus and splenius capitus, semispinalis capitus, spinalis thoracis, cervical portion of the trapezius, longissimus cervicus, ventral serratus, multifidus thoracis..... I'm afraid I have long forgotten the specifics of their origins and insertions, and will leave you to research as you wish.....but as ever these things are multifactorial, and no two horses will be the same shape. Because of their individual skeletal conformation some horses always will look dipped in front of the wither and behind the shoulder blade unless they are carrying sufficient fat to mask it.....we are too used to seeing fat horses as the norm.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

You see I think this is a pretty arrogant approach (& you don't normally come across like that to me).

Yes I agree that 18yo Instagram friendly susie_world_class_eventer needs taking with a pinch of salt, and tbh the posts linked above in #1 and Sblooms really don't do anyone any favours, but two of the top class physios I know don't ride any longer and another happily hacks on her *fat* cob. I respect their opinion and they are certainly working with horses and owners whose experience far outweighs anyone on here. Are those horses biomechnically perfect? No. In fact it is a big frustration with at least one of the physios that her post treatment stretches etc are rarely done - but then we've had the debate on here many a time about how hard grooms are worked and poorly they are paid so its not really a surprise. Working at that level is a skill in itself - especially those out at the big events.

I’d definitely classify a qualified physio or a groom as ‘walking the walk’ and having plenty of credibility.

And yes absolutely I want advice on correct posture and musculature. I don’t think I’m arrogant . In fact I am a sucker for a plausible poster or account because I believe I don’t know enough about any given area and am always wanting to learn more. My problem if that I have found it hard to separate ‘Susie-eventing’ accounts from people who do know what they are talking about.

I personally know someone with a big online presence who is followed and supported by a lot of people, including apparently credible people. He/she is - as far as I’m concerned - a total fraud! No qualifications, no lived experience as a rider, trainer, groom or coach. But it took some digging to find that out after taking their advice previously.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Quite the contrary - for the few years prior to this photo he was ridden in a much too wide saddle that sat on his withers by the person who owned him before I took him on.

This was about 6 months later, and with a fitted saddle - better but I'd still say he's not 'full' around the withers. I don't that conformationally he ever would look well muscled there due to the size of his withers, but I may be wrong, who knows. He monumentally broke before I could really find out.

View attachment 121084View attachment 121085

You may have had the right saddle but the damage was probably done before you had him, if you think horse is backed say at 4 and from day 1 the saddle doesn't fit at 8 years old that horse has never really had the chance to get that muscle, and then by that time it's too late and then it never develops properly.

 

[TPO]

So..... do you understand my explanation re the skeletal shape? Muscles/ligaments can only attach where the skeleton is...

The diagram is of a standard generic horse, a lot of horses will be much more extreme in their skeletal shape.

Yes I do.

I also agree with the list of muscles you've given in your next post. None of those have insertion or origin points near the "dips". I'm rusty on those too which is why I pulled my "bible" out to check.

We agree that no two horses are the same but why are numerous [eventing] horses showing the same dips/atrophies/lack of development/ whatever opposing sides wish to refer to?

I don't think that there is a pattern there can be denied?