Withers

[dottylottie]

I think this is really key. The amount of people who have told me my tb looks good at the moment and are taken aback when I say no, he's too fat. The same people are also the ones who have roasted me in the past when he's dropped off slightly in the winter - he's been by no means skinny and personally I think it's healthier to be skinnier than fatter (obviously there is a happy medium that's ideal) but it's worrying how many people see a fat horse as a healthy horse.

absolutely, both of mine are looking a bit chunky for my liking, and i’ve been told they look skinny - my vets most certainly don’t agree! Diva looks better definitely, but still porky. i think this is especially the case with welshies though, makes me feel a bit ill watching the ones who win a “best conditioned” class.

i don’t think the people commenting on these horses being underweight/undermuscled understand how athletic the animals need to be; runners don’t resemble bodybuilders!

 

[ihatework]

Being fit doesn't always equate to great posture though

Education can go both ways

True!
But perfect posture isn’t always achievable! You have to evaluate the horse holistically. It’s interesting for sure. But if you see some top eventers in the flesh at trot up it’s miraculous they are even there given the conformation

 

[TPO]

I don't disagree with you, but if these 5* eventers are performing as required, at the level required, with no significant injury.. then I am not sure why their horses posture is any of our business? I wouldn't think it was my problem to discuss WFP's horses posture, as much as I wouldn't think it was my business what posture your horse has, or CDJ or the woman next door to me on my livery yard.

Education
Ethics
Moral responsibility [to do better]
Improvements
Welfare

As starters for 10

Education- learning from the good as well as the bad examples. How should muscles function, how do you develop/improve/maintain, muscle original points and how tack interacts/interferes with them. Know better, do better. I more people had half a clue about anatomy then fruit loops wouldn't get a grasp on the industry with their online nerve release training for example.

Ethics- is it right that we need animals to be compromised to be at the job we've chosen for them. Is altering horses to the extent that they are near impossible to fit comfortable tack for (hence dead sheep/superbscience pads etc) to enable them to be good at our sport ethically right? That rabbit hole starts right back at owning and riding them full stop.

Moral responsibility- do we not all owe it to our horses to know the basics of anatomy and use that knowledge ad part of how we keep, train & ride. As well as a knowledge to enable us to engage with trainers, physios, vets, farriers, saddlers etc. There wouldn't be as many badly fitted saddles if people had a basic grasp on where the scapula was and spinal processes widths etc. The more "correct" that a horse is muscled and ridden the less likely they are to get injured. We cause damage every time we get on, so the onus is to minimise that, and have our horses as fit to function as optimally as possible.

Improvements- kind of like Education but there are always people out there trying new things and finding new ways. We can't do it all so watching to see what works and what doesn't with others to make improvements to help our horses.

Welfare - having compromised horses as the norm trickles down. Allowing compromised horses because it helps them do the job for us isn't in the horses best interests.

I absolutely do think it's "our" business what professional riders, trainers & professionals are doing. Blue tongue, rolkur, rapping, nerve releases...all carried out by "professionals" [self proclaimed or otherwise]. No one should be untouchable.

I hadn't seen any of the "wither" stuff but went looking for it after this thread. I can't see I've seen anything from the "bad" side that is actually wrong?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I absolutely do think it's "our" business what professional riders, trainers & professionals are doing. Blue tongue, rolkur, rapping, nerve releases...all carried out by "professionals" [self proclaimed or otherwise]. No one should be untouchable.

I wouldn't liken a 'not ideal, but also functional' posture to blatant cruelty like blue tongue, rolkur, rapping. I support public interest in the abolition of all of these things, regardless of who applies them.
We can support education for horse owners without public naming and shaming and over analysis of every aspect of their horse and turnout. If we must do the latter to encourage the former, then we are on a very slippery slope indeed.

 

[TPO]

I wouldn't liken a 'not ideal, but also functional' posture to blatant cruelty like blue tongue, rolkur, rapping. I support public interest in the abolition of all of these things, regardless of who applies them.
We can support education for horse owners without public naming and shaming and over analysis of every aspect of their horse and turnout. If we must do the latter to encourage the former, then we are on a very slippery slope indeed.

But rolkur/blue tongue/rapping/blatant cruelty made the horses function "better" for their chosen sports.

Eventers look how they look because the work/focus that makes them look/develop that way makes them good/better eventers.

Who decides where that line is? People have been happy to name rolkur and pole rapping users, for example, to some people this atrophy is on a par. So who decides what's OK to be upset about and what's not?

Is is a slippery slope in many ways. Social license is very real. I've got an itch in my brain but can't form the memory; I was somewhere fairly recently amongst horse people (in a semi official clinic or agm type environment) as they poo-pooed social license. Its going to hit hard soon

We, in the main, like/enjoy horse sports and we can see many, many things that are wrong. Joe Public might be looking at things through a different dismissals lens right now but if they got educated "we" would be in trouble.

There are so many things that I'd like to be gone and much tighter legislation for others that I'm not even sure that I wouldn't be welcoming some more "social licensing" interest.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

But rolkur/blue tongue/rapping/blatant cruelty made the horses function "better" for their chosen sports.

Eventers look how they look because the work/focus that makes them look/develop that way makes them good/better eventers.

Who decides where that line is? People have been happy to name rolkur and pole rapping users, for example, to some people this atrophy is on a par. So who decides what's OK to be upset about and what's not?

Is is a slippery slope in many ways. Social license is very real. I've got an itch in my brain but can't form the memory; I was somewhere fairly recently amongst horse people (in a semi official clinic or agm type environment) as they poo-pooed social license. Its going to hit hard soon

We, in the main, like/enjoy horse sports and we can see many, many things that are wrong. Joe Public might be looking at things through a different dismissals lens right now but if they got educated "we" would be in trouble.

There are so many things that I'd like to be gone and much tighter legislation for others that I'm not even sure that I wouldn't be welcoming some more "social licensing" interest.

But there is a difference between bad posture through a conformationally challenged horse, or one which just isn't regularly worked in the exact correct way and so continues to have naturally bad posture, to one that is high % TB and is prone to be a bit lean and have a dip, to one that is constantly worked in tight draw reins which means it has no choice but to work in that posture. That is where you have to have a considered approach, blue tongue and rollkur are what they are, obvious cause and effect.

Are to lambast Elwyn for the state of Messiah? (Who was also a world champ eventer in the 1990's)?

 

[j1ffy]

I understand the points about posture and I'm sure there is more that could be done for a lot of competition horses in this respect. At the lower levels of eventing (up to Advanced but not team level) I've seen plenty of use of draw-reins and 'get the nose in' style of dressage rather than systematic development and good movement patterns. However there's such an emphasis on dressage scores now, not to mention team training by Carl Hester, that I doubt these horses are forced into poor postures on a regular basis.

And yes, I know that a lot of top dressage horses also suffer from poor posture, often through an emphasis on leg movers rather than correct movement, but that's a trend that doesn't tend to be seen in top flight eventing (hence a lot of comments that people prefer to watch eventing dressage over pure dressage).

Yes, all riders should aim to learn and improve but I'm not convinced these posters are focused on the right areas.

Typing that has made me want to go and look up Michael Jung's horses as you don't get many riders as classical as him - even Sam has a prominent wither!

Congratulations to the Mitsubishi Motors Badminton Horse Trials 2016 winner: Michael Jung (GER) and La Biosthetique – Sam FBW

Congratulations to the Mitsubishi Motors Badminton Horse Trials 2016 winner: Michael Jung (GER) and La Biosthetique – Sam FBW. They also claims the prestigious Rolex Grand Slam having won in succession three premiere CCI**** events in America and Britain. This amazing couple achieved all the...

www.ijrc.org

And the goddess Ingrid!!

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=542485447245504&id=100044521595907

 

[Squeak]

If we compared the different types of human athletes we'd see a huge difference in their body types and muscling so why is it wrong for this to be true of horses also? I don't think we could say that all marathon runners are compromised and uncomfortable in their bodies compared to lets say a shotputter just because they're lighter framed and have bones that stick out differently.

Both humans and horses will more than likely have a disposition to that body shape/ style which has helped enable them to reach the pinnacles of their sports and this will probably cause the differences to be more emphasised too.

If people are suggesting that the eventers aren't muscled correctly do they think that eventing dressage is reflecting this? I'm genuinely curious as during the recent 5*'s the dressage has been praised so it would seem a bit disjointed for the horses performing the dressage to be working incorrectly.

 

[ycbm]

I wouldnt say shark fin withers are bad per say but that top picture … the horse is lacking top line. Athletic or not it should have some muscle there and there is none , there is a definite dip.

I agree that the first photo looks as if there's a lot of muscle atrophy just behind the shoulder. It could just be the photo angle and shading, but if it's truly representative of the horse, then I do think there's a difference between a fit TB type horse shark fin wither and missing muscle.

The other photos people have put up show the shark fin wither but below and behind that there is a flat/flattish plane of muscle. In the horse being criticised, there is a deep pit of apparently atrophied muscle behind the point of the shoulder, which would more normally be associated with poor saddle fit than horse fitness. (Always accepting that photos can be deceptive and it might just be a trick of the light).
.

 

[TPO]

But there is a difference between bad posture through a conformationally challenged horse, or one which just isn't regularly worked in the exact correct way and so continues to have naturally bad posture, to one that is high % TB and is prone to be a bit lean and have a dip, to one that is constantly worked in tight draw reins which means it has no choice but to work in that posture. That is where you have to have a considered approach, blue tongue and rollkur are what they are, obvious cause and effect.

Are to lambast Elwyn for the state of Messiah? (Who was also a world champ eventer in the 1990's)?

View attachment 120564

I'm not saying that I fully agree with the SM account but what she is getting het up about is the atrophy that is present in the examples she's given.

Top class competition horses shouldn't have, in some cases quite severe, muscle atrophy. I mean, ideally no in work horses have atrophy, but high level eventers have to be close to the pinnacle of equine athletes?

Conformation, good or bad, will obviously have an affect on posture and muscles that's not what's being disputed.

She also mentions the "athletes are compromised to do their sport" argument.

Firstly most athletes are their doing their sport because they want to, animals have next to no say in what we choose.

Secondly certain body types are going to be more suited for certain sports. Strong shoulders are needed for swimming, strong legs for weight lifting etc so athletes train to maximise what they need and sometimes that may be to the detriment of other body parts/functions. That's why certain [successful] horses have a build for reining and others for endurance. I don't think the argument that marathon runners don't have shoulders like swimmers is a good defence for why *some* eventers have muscle atrophies.

The posters comments about runners not carrying riders has been dismissed by some, but at the end of the day, horses aren't designed to carry us. We should be making sure that horses are as strong, correct and balanced as they can be to compensate for the damage that all riders cause.

If you want to talk about slippery slopes that would be comparing eventing dressage vs dressage. That's already lost this place some excellent posters!

Who do you think is training the eventers in dressage?

Deleted because its not worth it and I can't cope with trec or bridleless in the middle of a GP suggestions, but there are plenty of threads with nonsense is being spouted about dressage [training] by people who don't have a clue and some attempts to explain by people who can 100% walk the walk in reality

 

[LEC]

Interesting is that my no1 horse has gone down a saddle width since being made horse no1 from always being horse no2. As horse no2 she pooteled about at 90s and wasn’t truly fit. Now she is pretty fit as was running a 100 3 day and that still isn’t that fit. I had a bit of a panic as she had developed a bit of a hollow but nothing has changed in her work or way she was produced and I am super anal about posture and ridden work.

 

[SEL]

I don't disagree with you, but if these 5* eventers are performing as required, at the level required, with no significant injury.. then I am not sure why their horses posture is any of our business? I wouldn't think it was my problem to discuss WFP's horses posture, as much as I wouldn't think it was my business what posture your horse has, or CDJ or the woman next door to me on my livery yard.

I found the original post I think LEC was referring to on FB and that's the angry type that does no-one any favours.

But I do think as horse owners we should understand good and bad posture, even if the horse is out doing its job. Building up the correct muscles can only be a good thing surely? Yes every shape builds up differently but some of those dips around the withers - especially in front of the withers - makes me wince. For every horse that carries on into its teens doing a cracking job there will be many, many more that fall by the wayside because we haven't built them up correctly.

I would be more than happy for people to critique my 3 (if I could get a flipping photo to upload) because I do that all the time myself. None are going eventing any time soon but my youngest cob is very much designed that he could get atrophy around the withers if I don't keep an eye on him. He charges around the paddock with his neck braced up high and I have no doubt if he was in harness like his sire that's exactly how he would go. No good at all for his long term development or health. The mares are both a bit screwed physically but the big mare has over developed muscles around her scapula which are as much a sign of poor posture as the under development.

I'm not surprised to see atrophy in some very fit horses in certain disciplines - racing & endurance for instance. I am I think a bit surprised about eventing though given it is multi disciplinary and there has been so much more focus on dressage scores. But tbh I haven't really spent much time looking at top class eventers and think anyone could pull horrible photos from a moment in time if that's their aim. I can make mine go from fabulous posture to looking like 3 legged donkeys with just a few small adjustments and a camera angle......

 

[Birker2020]

But there is a difference between bad posture through a conformationally challenged horse, or one which just isn't regularly worked in the exact correct way and so continues to have naturally bad posture, to one that is high % TB and is prone to be a bit lean and have a dip, to one that is constantly worked in tight draw reins which means it has no choice but to work in that posture. That is where you have to have a considered approach, blue tongue and rollkur are what they are, obvious cause and effect.

Are to lambast Elwyn for the state of Messiah? (Who was also a world champ eventer in the 1990's)?

View attachment 120564

Truly dreadful conformation all over really

 

[Birker2020]

But there is a difference between bad posture through a conformationally challenged horse, or one which just isn't regularly worked in the exact correct way and so continues to have naturally bad posture, to one that is high % TB and is prone to be a bit lean and have a dip, to one that is constantly worked in tight draw reins which means it has no choice but to work in that posture. That is where you have to have a considered approach, blue tongue and rollkur are what they are, obvious cause and effect.

Are to lambast Elwyn for the state of Messiah? (Who was also a world champ eventer in the 1990's)?

View attachment 120564

Turns out his conformation wasn't an issue after all.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Shoot me down, but I'm one who prefers to watch eventers doing dressage than dressage horses doing dressage, and I'm happy to share that .

Even when an eventer gets a bit overwrought in the arena, it seems to be in a 'keen to get on with it' type of way rather than an over or under revved, tense and unhappy type of way as I see far too often in pure dressage.

Bear in mind that my main competitive discipline was in affiliated dressage, including training twice weekly with a List 1 judge for several years.

I don't compete any more, but I do volunteer, and I much prefer dressage writing for BE than BD.

 

[ycbm]

Turns out his conformation wasn't an issue after all.

The horse needs standing on a piece of level ground before anyone can reasonably compare angles by drawing lines on him.
.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Truly dreadful conformation all over really

Correct, but effective clearly.. he was a world champion. Can’t deny that if you saw him standing out in a field though you’d raise your eyebrows at him.

 

[Bernster]

Hmm.. from that first pic I’d say there does look to be muscle atrophy/loss behind the wither. It’s conformation may be challenged and the horse may be performing at the top level but it’s not really the standard bearer for how great topline should look is it?

 

[TPO]

Correct, but effective clearly.. he was a world champion. Can’t deny that if you saw him standing out in a field though you’d raise your eyebrows at him.

I see your eventer and raise you one show jumper (Bonzai H)



In all seriousness, though, the "concerns" raised by some people on social media aren't about confirmation but about [some quite severe] muscle atrophies.

 

[Bernster]

Wow TPO - that looks photoshopped

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I see your eventer and raise you one show jumper (Bonzai H)

View attachment 120656

In all seriousness, though, the "concerns" raised by some people on social media aren't about confirmation but about [some quite severe] muscle atrophies.

That's the horse I was looking for but couldn't remember the name for the life of me!

 

[sbloom]

Seeing horses stripped at trot ups, dressage included, is an eye opener. Yes there's some poor conformation, but there is a LOT of dysfunctional posture and musculature. They make it to the top because they have such talent, huge elasticity etc (ultimately not good for long term soundness) and all the care money can buy. If injections were banned I think we'd see different breeding and healthier horses.

These are suposedly the pinnacle of equine kind, show me a horse trained in Legerete or similar and I'm almost always much happier. Unfortunately our eyes keep seeing this so we think it's normal. Just because it wins doesn't mean it's right or that it's a good example to follow.

Equally there is too much vitriol of course...but emotions do run high with this kind of thing, and social licence WILL come into this in time. They don't ask to do what we ask of them, we owe it to them to make them as functional and comfortable as possible.

 

[Cortez]

Conformation is a guideline, not a prescription. Heart, aptitude, temperament, training + a good dollop of opportunity and luck are what makes a winner in any discipline (n.b. showing is not a discipline).

 

[LEC]

I keep asking, and nobody can produce an example where everything is matched - truly fit for 5* and muscled well. So that tells me, it’s either an ideal which isn’t achievable or 100 of the worlds best riders across different continents are doing a shit job?

Ultimately we shouldn’t be riding horses so it doesn’t surprise me there is compromise to some degree. Showing me examples using fat cobs doesn’t ever answer my question which a lot of these shouty pages do.

 

[sbloom]

Go look at Legerete trainers pages, you'll find a decent proportion of healthy postures shown. I'm not a devotee but it offers more insight than many types of training without hunting up and down.

Top level competition methods, culture, environment, finances, breeding are not conducive to building truly healthy musculature, sorry.

 

[stangs]

3yo who'd run 3 races at the time the photo was taken. Obviously lacking in muscle along the neck, but, despite having shark fin withers and not having much fat on her, still doesn't seem to have the same level of atrophy as in the OP. Admittedly, atrophy seems to stand out more on bays so not a brilliant comparison.

 

[ycbm]

I'm looking on ROR and I can't see anything with the apparent level of atrophy of the horse that prompted the thread.
.

 

[LEC]

Go look at Legerete trainers pages, you'll find a decent proportion of healthy postures shown. I'm not a devotee but it offers more insight than many types of training without hunting up and down.

Top level competition methods, culture, environment, finances, breeding are not conducive to building truly healthy musculature, sorry.

Nor is running wild like mustangs and Brumbys…. It’s a human construct of what is desirable.

As I have said nobody can find a good example of 5* fit and well muscled.

 

[silv]

Oh wait, let's take a bunch of show cobs eventing, because clearly with their wither-less appearance they'll be much better at it.

I'm sick of the "drawing lines on photos to make it look scientific" contingent. So much total rubbish getting spouted on social media that draws so many people in...

Well said.

 

[Reacher]

I don’t follow instagram etc so not criticising anyone specifically but in the photo with the red line it was the dip in front of the withers I noticed first - as Birker notes can be from poor posture / training.

Being fit doesn't always equate to great posture though

Education can go both ways

My physio did physio on the London olympics horses and told me that many had horrible tight / sore muscles that needed a lot of work but the physio could only give enough treatment to keep them moving as the amount of treatment the horses really needed would make them too sore to compete. Which to me sounded like a long term issue rather than a short term soreness from the competition. Which brings us back to ethics / social licence etc.

TPO articulates it better than I could.

Education
Ethics
Moral responsibility [to do better]
Improvements
Welfare

As starters for 10

Education- learning from the good as well as the bad examples. How should muscles function, how do you develop/improve/maintain, muscle original points and how tack interacts/interferes with them. Know better, do better. I more people had half a clue about anatomy then fruit loops wouldn't get a grasp on the industry with their online nerve release training for example.

Ethics- is it right that we need animals to be compromised to be at the job we've chosen for them. Is altering horses to the extent that they are near impossible to fit comfortable tack for (hence dead sheep/superbscience pads etc) to enable them to be good at our sport ethically right? That rabbit hole starts right back at owning and riding them full stop.

Moral responsibility- do we not all owe it to our horses to know the basics of anatomy and use that knowledge ad part of how we keep, train & ride. As well as a knowledge to enable us to engage with trainers, physios, vets, farriers, saddlers etc. There wouldn't be as many badly fitted saddles if people had a basic grasp on where the scapula was and spinal processes widths etc. The more "correct" that a horse is muscled and ridden the less likely they are to get injured. We cause damage every time we get on, so the onus is to minimise that, and have our horses as fit to function as optimally as possible.

Improvements- kind of like Education but there are always people out there trying new things and finding new ways. We can't do it all so watching to see what works and what doesn't with others to make improvements to help our horses.

Welfare - having compromised horses as the norm trickles down. Allowing compromised horses because it helps them do the job for us isn't in the horses best interests.

I absolutely do think it's "our" business what professional riders, trainers & professionals are doing. Blue tongue, rolkur, rapping, nerve releases...all carried out by "professionals" [self proclaimed or otherwise]. No one should be untouchable.

I hadn't seen any of the "wither" stuff but went looking for it after this thread. I can't see I've seen anything from the "bad" side that is actually wrong?