Working kelpies

[Alec Swan]

Setters are bred to be HPR in Europe, and not here, so different rather than better maybe? Although they are very show bred over here now I suppose. Did the kennel club ever improve a breed!?

Are you referring to English Setters as a breed, and if so, are you sure of that? The best man to ask is Dry Rot, the pointing breeds being his speciality at one time.

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

I dunno, are the KC responsible for making a working breed unfashionable for working?

That I don't know. Perhaps by selecting a breed standard that has little to do with working there is no benefit to breeding a dog to achieve both, and once you stop caring if it can work and only care how it looks then why take it out in the field?
How many show hunters would hunt successfully? They are all about 18hh for a start, you would hit every tree.

 

[Alec Swan]

^^^^ A good post. Valid points too!

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

Are you referring to English Setters as a breed, and if so, are you sure of that? The best man to ask is Dry Rot, the pointing breeds being his speciality at one time.

Alec.

The imported setters retrieve. Thankfully they are marginally taking off over here as I love them and would like to see them out and about again.
I mooted getting one but as OH pointed out, if they don't retrieve then it could spend all day pointing at something in our woods and we would just wonder where it had gone. Best for moors perhaps.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

That I don't know. Perhaps by selecting a breed standard that has little to do with working there is no benefit to breeding a dog to achieve both, and once you stop caring if it can work and only care how it looks then why take it out in the field?

yes, but there are breeds that although working and show lines have diverged somewhat, are still popular as working dogs (or more popular than I am led to believe setters are in the UK).

 

[Moobli]

That I don't know. Perhaps by selecting a breed standard that has little to do with working there is no benefit to breeding a dog to achieve both, and once you stop caring if it can work and only care how it looks then why take it out in the field?
How many show hunters would hunt successfully? They are all about 18hh for a start, you would hit every tree.

Absolutely! Form follows function.

 

[Clodagh]

yes, but there are breeds that although working and show lines have diverged somewhat, are still popular as working dogs (or more popular than I am led to believe setters are in the UK).

Like labradors and spaniels I suppose? Fair point. Trouble is breeds are common for a reason and any numpty could train a lab.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Like labradors and spaniels I suppose? Fair point. Trouble is breeds are common for a reason and any numpty could train a lab.

I was kind of going towards that trainability (or foibles ) might to to blame-then you get fewer people bout that can train them etc. I'm not sure the KC is to blame for that-even if its to blame for so much other stuff.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . Trouble is breeds are common for a reason and any numpty could train a lab.

I've seen a great many dogs, supposedly trained by numptys, and never seen one yet that reached it's potential.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

Ain't Wikipedia useful

It is, and it's only a shame that those who would make asinine comments don't avail themselves of the facility and before they make themselves seem rather foolish.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh right, I understood that the original dogs were imported from Labrador and the breed in England developed from there, hence the name. The same way as in Alsatians, seeing as you mentioned them, were imported from the Alsace region. While the English strain of the German Shepherd is a distinct type developed over a long time, I still wouldn't call them a breed of English origin. We'll have to agree to differ on whether breeds can excel outside of their country of origin, without the name calling

 

[KittenInTheTree]

I have a Kelpie cross Smooth Collie, from working lines (cattle and sheep). He's pretty much mute, and I found him very easy to train. He's far less intense than the Borders that I've met, and he's fully able to think and act independently of his handler when need be. Brilliant at things like: "Go and find X and then bring X to Y via Z!" The more complicated the better as far as he's concerned. Wakes me for my medication, alerts if I'm about to have a seizure and helps "make safe", that sort of silly trick. I don't think he'd be to everyone's taste; he certainly wouldn't suit the dog dancing types at all, and would probably just do an incredulous head tilt at the agility circuit and then wee on the tunnel before curling up for a snooze! He's been taught to completely ignore livestock unless told otherwise, because I have no need of his herding instincts, but that said we've stopped a few loose horses and escapee sheep by eye alone. Quite a few of the local farmers are very taken with him

 

[Moobli]

I have a Kelpie cross Smooth Collie, from working lines (cattle and sheep). He's pretty much mute, and I found him very easy to train. He's far less intense than the Borders that I've met, and he's fully able to think and act independently of his handler when need be. Brilliant at things like: "Go and find X and then bring X to Y via Z!" The more complicated the better as far as he's concerned. Wakes me for my medication, alerts if I'm about to have a seizure and helps "make safe", that sort of silly trick. I don't think he'd be to everyone's taste; he certainly wouldn't suit the dog dancing types at all, and would probably just do an incredulous head tilt at the agility circuit and then wee on the tunnel before curling up for a snooze! He's been taught to completely ignore livestock unless told otherwise, because I have no need of his herding instincts, but that said we've stopped a few loose horses and escapee sheep by eye alone. Quite a few of the local farmers are very taken with him

He sounds like a interesting cross. Was it a deliberate cross? Smooth collies are not really known for their sheep or cattle herding prowess I don't believe - but it is great to hear he is a useful dog. Do you have any photos? Does he look more kelpie or smooth collie?

 

[Moobli]

Having spent the last couple of days researching various breeders and the breed itself, I have come to the conclusion that for the type of terrain we farm and the breeds of sheep we keep that a kelpie - unless an outstanding example - is probably not going to be for me.

 

[Clodagh]

Having spent the last couple of days researching various breeders and the breed itself, I have come to the conclusion that for the type of terrain we farm and the breeds of sheep we keep that a kelpie - unless an outstanding example - is probably not going to be for me.

When I saw them working in Oz it was huge stations and driving about a million sheep. I never saw one seperate a single ewe like a collie would do (I acknowledge that doesn't mean they can't). They seemed more Aussie, rougher and a bit in your face.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

He sounds like a interesting cross. Was it a deliberate cross? Smooth collies are not really known for their sheep or cattle herding prowess I don't believe - but it is great to hear he is a useful dog. Do you have any photos? Does he look more kelpie or smooth collie?

well, they used to-thats what they were for (droving). and although they tend to not use them for work in the UK now, they are used elsewhere. I think mostly the drive has been bred out of them. (although its maybe worth pointing out that some people call smooth coated collies smooth collies and they are not the same breed-this may not be the case with KIT but if you google ads for smooth collies, many of them are not).

 

[Moobli]

When I saw them working in Oz it was huge stations and driving about a million sheep. I never saw one seperate a single ewe like a collie would do (I acknowledge that doesn't mean they can't). They seemed more Aussie, rougher and a bit in your face.

Your last sentence has hit the nail on the head for me.

 

[Moobli]

well, they used to-thats what they were for (droving). and although they tend to not use them for work in the UK now, they are used elsewhere. I think mostly the drive has been bred out of them. (although its maybe worth pointing out that some people call smooth coated collies smooth collies and they are not the same breed-this may not be the case with KIT but if you google ads for smooth collies, many of them are not).

Yes I appreciate they were once a working breed, but I haven't seen one working in a herding capacity ever (except in US herding tests on youtube) - so seems an interesting mix. As you rightly say though, smooth collie could mean bare skinned border collie.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

He sounds like a interesting cross. Was it a deliberate cross? Smooth collies are not really known for their sheep or cattle herding prowess I don't believe - but it is great to hear he is a useful dog. Do you have any photos? Does he look more kelpie or smooth collie?

Sorry, missed this. Dam was the Kelpie (red cloud, out of a black and tan), sire was the Smooth Collie (tricoloured "Lassie" type dog without all the hair, to clarify). The sire belonged to another local farmer, and there were nine pups in total - one tricolour, the rest black, or black and white.

Anyhow, mine is a leanly built dog, black with white markings, and a short, dense coat. He's an equal blend of both breeds in appearance - as if you took the frame of a Smooth Collie and then crammed it into the exterior of a Kelpie. His ears do their own thing depending on the occasion! As a young pup, he was very chunky, then he spent from twelve months to three and a half years as mostly legs and huge paws. He really only filled out properly in his fourth year (now rising six). He's not a very large dog; he's only 22" at his shoulder, just shy of 24" along his back, and 22.5kg in weight.

Most recent photo:

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Can't see a photo! interesting mix, the smooths seem to be very gentle dogs-completely game outside but proper couch potatoes inside (perfect really!). sounds like he's about male smooth collie size, the kelpies I've known have all been smaller.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Can't see a photo! interesting mix, the smooths seem to be very gentle dogs-completely game outside but proper couch potatoes inside (perfect really!). sounds like he's about male smooth collie size, the kelpies I've known have all been smaller.

Funnily enough, the photo is him in couch potato mode! It's on my profile in the album titled "Dog" I'll try again:

https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29904&d=1489114930
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29903&d=1489114929

 

[Clodagh]

Off topic, but can you still train GSDs to round up sheep? Is that their historical job or was it more flock guard?

 

[Moobli]

Funnily enough, the photo is him in couch potato mode! It's on my profile in the album titled "Dog" I'll try again:

https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29904&d=1489114930
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=29903&d=1489114929

Still no photos

 

[CorvusCorax]

The role of the GSD was more that of a 'moving fence' to keep sheep off crops and keep predators and thieves out. But they do have to round up/drive the sheep in competition.

The HGH championships still take place every year in Germany and there is a class for herding dogs at the BSZS/World Sieger show too.

 

[Moobli]

Off topic, but can you still train GSDs to round up sheep? Is that their historical job or was it more flock guard?

GSDs were originally used in a tending capacity as a "living fence" to keep sheep in the graze and away from crops or the road and moving vehicles when moving the flock from one graze to another. The German sheep tend to be large, heavy and quite tame (they come to the human shepherd's call) and so there is no gathering required (a la border collie). They were also required to protect the flock and the shepherd from predators and intruders but not in the style of the Livestock Guardian breeds. The versatility of the breed was very quickly recognised though and I believe their sheep tending days were relatively short lived, other than in some areas of rural Germany. Outside Germany they became far more useful in the military, police etc.

My own GSD does help on our farm but his natural instinct is not obvious, but he is versatile and biddable and so can be trained to do certain jobs - rather than it coming naturally to him as it would a border collie.

 

[Moobli]

This short video gives you a taster of the HGH trial and you will see it is a world apart from our sheep dog trials. Completely different type and style of work and different sheep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWBEyqFcN5A

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Still no photos

Please work this time! If you can see them, the one in the snow was when he was about two and a half, the other was a few weeks back

 

[Moobli]

A longer video (if interested ... and even I don't find it that interesting to watch lol) shows Ulf Kintzel and his dog Lenz doing an HGH type herding trial in the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iT-St_vsEg

 

[CorvusCorax]

I find it like watching paint dry, lol!!

 

[Moobli]

Please work this time! If you can see them, the one in the snow was when he was about two and a half, the other was a few weeks back

Ummm ... sorry Still no photo.