Would changing eventing scoring system improve safety?

[RachelFerd]

I think there's a physical and a mental aspect. The natural ground eating gallop, yes, but also the high TB blood horses seem to think so much quicker when they're in a tight spot.

Dressage horse v. eventer, I know from riding my own hypermobile horse that it takes him a lot longer to pull himself together out of an unbalanced moment than it ever would most TBs, who would just pull another leg out of a back pocket.
.

For the sake of balance though - I have ridden some TBs who have been *terrible* jumpers who really would be as unsafe as unsafe could be around a big XC course... but they had the added 'bonus' of being terribly, idiotically brave.

 

[teapot]

According to H&H/Mark Phillips’ latest column the sj cups were shallower at the Worlds.

Is that a way of making the sj more influential?

 

[RachelFerd]

According to H&H/Mark Phillips’ latest column the sj cups were shallower at the Worlds.

Is that a way of making the sj more influential?

I got the impression that the SJ influence is about right, in general, at the big events. Although SJ still rewards power rather than speed - so I'm not sure if there's still an issue if you add more importance to SJ?

 

[Orangehorse]

The only gap in the evidence for me (and I hope it is just because it hasn't been shared, and it does exist) is that it is the more dressage bred type horses that are falling. Does a higher % of TB blood actually make a horse safer? Certainly a lot of the French breeding seems to have it right though - horses like Banzai du Loir are blood, athletic AND can really move and turn out the dressage scores too. Whereas London 52 doesn't do that for me - he looks like a DR/SJ horse that has been taught to gallop (no discredit to LC - she's done an amazing job).

Well I wonder this. Has anyone done any analysis? But as I said on the Blenheim thread, there are many falls where the horse gets up and walks away, so is it just bad luck that these had a fatal injury?

 

[RachelFerd]

Well I wonder this. Has anyone done any analysis? But as I said on the Blenheim thread, there are many falls where the horse gets up and walks away, so is it just bad luck that these had a fatal injury?

If anyone has done any analysis, it will be Equiratings, as they do safety data analytics for the FEI and other major national federations. So I suspect the input from Sam Watson on the podcast was informed by data - but I haven't seen confirmation of that. And yes, I think the fatal element is the random bad luck, whereas the falling the first place is probably less random.

 

[Wishfilly]

For the sake of balance though - I have ridden some TBs who have been *terrible* jumpers who really would be as unsafe as unsafe could be around a big XC course... but they had the added 'bonus' of being terribly, idiotically brave.

I mean, there's no breeding that guarantees you a 5* horse, is there? Obviously, there's plenty of breeding that stands no chance.

I feel like if we go back past, say, the 90s, there were more horses with a bit of pony breeding who managed to do okay at the higher levels. Obviously they were still rare, but I feel like they existed more?

At lower levels, obviously connies and connemaraxTB are quite popular, and generally seem like safe-ish horses that can get people out of trouble, and usually seem fit enough around the XC. But sometimes, horses that are flashier in the dressage and then, perhaps a bit less capable XC get rewarded more. I know that's not really what this thread is about, but it's what I've seen near me this summer, perhaps including at a few PC events I've been to.

I do think it would be good for someone to do some analysis about the types of horses that have had falls.

I do also think that we perhaps need a few covid free seasons before making sweeping changes to the sport, too?

 

[TheMule]

Burghley fallers % TB (according to horsetelex, which is not always totally accurate if breeding not recorded in earlier generations)

Swallow Springs 54%
Waldo III 42%
Ringwood LB 44%
Possible Mission 44%
Grandslam 41%
Findus PFB 33%


(I haven’t included Tregilder because it was a very atypical horse fall IMO, he has 72% blood)

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Dieing to ask but I know it's a daft suggestion but I will anyway so I can understand more.....would moving the disaplines round make any difference? Ie dressage last?

 

[RachelFerd]

Burghley fallers % TB (according to horsetelex, which is not always totally accurate if breeding not recorded in earlier generations)

Swallow Springs 54%
Waldo III 42%
Ringwood LB 44%
Possible Mission 44%
Grandslam 41%
Findus PFB 33%


(I haven’t included Tregilder because it was a very atypical horse fall IMO, he has 72% blood)

Of course, this would be most interesting as a comparison with the % of blood of those who didn't fall... and then scaled up over a many more events.

FWIW here are the blood percentages of the horses with the longest perfect XC jumping records at 5*

Classic Moet (12 clears) 75%
Ballaghmor Class (8) 24% BUT the damline is unrecorded other than 'ISH' so is presumably a lot higher than 24%...
Rioghan Rua (7) 54.5%
Shiraz (7) 100%
Z (6) 45.9%
TSF Karascada M (6) 68.8%
Wild Lone (6) 49.8%
Ivar Gooden (6) 58%
Zenshera (6) 52.1%


....so that's pretty varied!

 

[Orangehorse]

On the subject of breeding, a few years ago H & H did a back page feature of famous and successful horses and a surprising number had Arab not that far back, as well as pony.

But that far back, as well, nearly all UK horses would have been hunted as young horses, it was just standard practice. Not the German horses though, which proves that they don't need to go hunting.

 

[spacefaer]

On the subject of breeding, a few years ago H & H did a back page feature of famous and successful horses and a surprising number had Arab not that far back, as well as pony.

But that far back, as well, nearly all UK horses would have been hunted as young horses, it was just standard practice. Not the German horses though, which proves that they don't need to go hunting.

Being old enough to remember those days, it certainly helped for the type of course that was prevalent then, which rewarded the bold and brave. The courses didn't require the technical rideability of today's - hence the change in horses and in riding style.

I had a fabulous 7/8ths TB back then who hunted properly every winter up until he upgraded to Advanced. He ultimately went as far as jumping clear round the xc at Blenheim (then) 3*. I always said that he was naturally too careful to make it as an eventer and it was only the hunting that made him bold.

 

[LEC]

Of course, this would be most interesting as a comparison with the % of blood of those who didn't fall... and then scaled up over a many more events.

FWIW here are the blood percentages of the horses with the longest perfect XC jumping records at 5*

Classic Moet (12 clears) 75%
Ballaghmor Class (8) 24% BUT the damline is unrecorded other than 'ISH' so is presumably a lot higher than 24%...
Rioghan Rua (7) 54.5%
Shiraz (7) 100%
Z (6) 45.9%
TSF Karascada M (6) 68.8%
Wild Lone (6) 49.8%
Ivar Gooden (6) 58%
Zenshera (6) 52.1%


....so that's pretty varied!

I think some of those should be taken into account that Zenshera never ran round the Bs because he didn’t have enough scope or blood. Purposely kept to Luhmuhlen and Pau.

 

[Jango]

From the recent 5* falls this year, it seems like a lot of them are actually big contenders chasing the time, going far too fast into technical, trappy fences and having bad falls. E.g. Tom and toledo at that bounce. In my opinion the issue is the tight times combined with the v technical courses which are causing the bad horse falls, plus the covid time out factor. I think you either need less technical fences and a tighter time, I think tightening the time/removing the optimum with the current courses would be a recipe for disaster.

I think you would have to examine all horse falls at fences, as those as the ones likely to be fatal (for horses and riders). It would be interesting to compare horse fall percentages of leaders/contenders vs the people just trying to get round.

I love the idea that a double clear halves your dressage score/give you a reduction to your score!

 

[fetlock]

Dieing to ask but I know it's a daft suggestion but I will anyway so I can understand more.....would moving the disaplines round make any difference? Ie dressage last?

In the earliest days of eventing I read that dressage was the last phase then.

 

[Wishfilly]

On the subject of breeding, a few years ago H & H did a back page feature of famous and successful horses and a surprising number had Arab not that far back, as well as pony.

But that far back, as well, nearly all UK horses would have been hunted as young horses, it was just standard practice. Not the German horses though, which proves that they don't need to go hunting.

I'm a real fan of arabs- I know a lot of people aren't- but I do think they are very intelligent and trainable when they are onside. I think you can trust them to have a sense of self preservation, and they're often good with their feet. There's also a bit of a perception that arabs can't jump, but I think a lot of the time people who own them don't jump them, any I've known who have jumped have been pretty successful at it (and fast against the clock).

I actually think arabs can be a really good choice for competitive kids/teens coming off ponies, as well.

Anglo-arabs are also pretty out of fashion as well, but again I think have all the attributes to make successful eventers, right up to high levels.

 

[fetlock]

I'm a real fan of arabs- I know a lot of people aren't- but I do think they are very intelligent and trainable when they are onside. I think you can trust them to have a sense of self preservation, and they're often good with their feet. There's also a bit of a perception that arabs can't jump, but I think a lot of the time people who own them don't jump them, any I've known who have jumped have been pretty successful at it (and fast against the clock).

I actually think arabs can be a really good choice for competitive kids/teens coming off ponies, as well.

Anglo-arabs are also pretty out of fashion as well, but again I think have all the attributes to make successful eventers, right up to high levels.

I had a little Anglo Arab as a kid. A lunatic but in hindsight think the poor soul probably had ulcers.

he was phenomenally talented though.

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm a real fan of arabs- I know a lot of people aren't- but I do think they are very intelligent and trainable when they are onside. I think you can trust them to have a sense of self preservation, and they're often good with their feet. There's also a bit of a perception that arabs can't jump, but I think a lot of the time people who own them don't jump them, any I've known who have jumped have been pretty successful at it (and fast against the clock).

I actually think arabs can be a really good choice for competitive kids/teens coming off ponies, as well.

Anglo-arabs are also pretty out of fashion as well, but again I think have all the attributes to make successful eventers, right up to high levels.

Anglo Arabs are not out of fashion - lots of French bred Anglo Arabs out there eventing including Vasilly de Lassos and Upsilon is gaining a lot of popularity as a sire.

 

[LEC]

Ummm the Upsilons are a very different kettle of fish though as sharp and tricky.

There are tonnes of AA in French breeding because they get decent breeding prizes for young horses so worthwhile having them. Piggy French’s Halo is a super AA. Most of Tom Carliles have AA. Tenereze is another. Mostly it’s on the dam side.

 

[RachelFerd]

Ummm the Upsilons are a very different kettle of fish though as sharp and tricky.

There are tonnes of AA in French breeding because they get decent breeding prizes for young horses so worthwhile having them. Piggy French’s Halo is a super AA. Most of Tom Carliles have AA. Tenereze is another. Mostly it’s on the dam side.

I tried to buy an AA from France back when I got my current young horse. But had a couple of failed vettings and ended up buying in the UK instead... But I was *trying* to buy a French AA ? instead I have a British bred 25% Selle Francais... So he's at least a tiny bit french, although not at all Arab.

 

[LEC]

I am intrigued by the racing AA they have. But don’t know enough about it, they jump race though… I only know vague bits due to my french eventing friend. I do know the breeders prizes in France are exceptional though hence why worth having AA or a french bred horse and why you see so little foreign horses.

 

[Gamebird]

And don't forget that Mill Law had some Arab blood, so there has been plenty of it kicking around in eventing.

 

[Squeak]

I would love to see the xc become more influential again. I'm not convinced by making speed more of a factor it would make it safer, I don't have a better suggestion though.

Not convinced either by the double clears being made influential as some good xc horses are liable to have a pole.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think the easiest way to make XC more influential is to change time penalties to 1 sec over the time (could even introduce too fast penalties at FEI as per BE?), make refusals 40 penalties etc.

 

[MagicMelon]

Definately dressage is far too influential. I feel SJ is least influential and should be more so. I also think you shouldnt reward the absolute fastest horse XC as that verges on dangerous (we've all seen some nutters going flat out). I do think speed is very important though as usually the best dressage scoring horses are warmbloods who arent the fastest.

I do personally think TB's are cleverer and far more agile / quick with their feet to help save you when you get into trouble. Im by no means any expert in breeding whatsoever, but from personal experience my TB x's have always been amazing quick XC horses who literally read your mind whereas the WB's Ive had have always struggled a bit with the pace, agility and stamina and you have to sort of plan a few strides ahead with them. I think going back to TB types is the way forward for eventing to become safer again.

Ultimately from a safety aspect, I think the course designers need to totally rethink what they're doing. They're building trappy, technical groups of fences where normally the falls happen. Does anyone know the stats for horse falls from say 10 years ago to now? I bet they're far higher now. How can they possibly say their courses are much safer now than they ever were? Where is the evidence for this as the horse deaths suggest otherwise. Perhaps it is the different types of horses we use now but they need to adapt to improve safety. Even one horse death is totally unacceptable in our sport.

 

[ihatework]

Well Pau has just done what I like to see - rewarded quick good, honest XC horses who were enjoying the job. Not a single one in the 20’s after dressage held their spot. The pin in the water will probably have a few grumbles but on the whole most deserved a penalty there. I felt a bit sorry for a couple.

 

[teapot]

Well Pau has just done what I like to see - rewarded quick good, honest XC horses who were enjoying the job. Not a single one in the 20’s after dressage held their spot. The pin in the water will probably have a few grumbles but on the whole most deserved a penalty there. I felt a bit sorry for a couple.

Sj did its job too - only three clear inside the time!

 

[RachelFerd]

Sj did its job too - only three clear inside the time!

Can't argue much about the correct balance of influence across the three phases there. Although gutted for David Doel at the last!

 

[Honey08]

Is there anywhere to watch Pau on catch up?

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Is there anywhere to watch Pau on catch up?

horse and country TV?

 

[Honey08]

I don't have it.