Would you do this to your dog?

Michen

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My English springer spaniel has been living in Colorado with me for the last couple of years, where I've kept her away from rattlesnakes by walking/hiking at elevation- easy to do because of my horses location being up there too. In addition the rattlesnake "season" is reasonably short.

Now we are in Arizona and only a month or so away from them coming out. Everyone here does rattlesnake training for their dog at a special school, which at the same time teach them to avoid Sonoran toads, and it uses an electric collar to have them associate the smell, sound etc. Apparently very effective and you can do the shock as lightly as required for a sensitive dog. And she is a sensitive dog. Apparently the shock is usually just done once.

I am sure this would be considered horrific in the UK, and I instantly dismissed it as such, but I don't know whether I should consider it from the point of view that it could save her life. The other option is that she stays on a short lead for all her walks, not a great way of life for a buzzy spaniel that loves scampering around.

My issue is to have access to snakes to train her even if I wanted to do it myself a diferent way, I have to go to one of these schools, and they only do it their way as above. She is a very high drive dog and gets in all sorts of vegetation etc, the chances of her coming across a snake are high. And even if she sticks to a trail, last year one was casually sunning itself on a rock right on it. Her first instinct would no doubt be to investigate. In speaking with the locals, a few of them did try to train with positive reinforcement but they said it was absolutely not as successful as the "usual" method.

Before I'm accused of being a terrible owner for even considering this, please bear in mind that I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep my dog safe and also not restrict her quality of life (aka her spending it on a short lead). I am trying to weigh up the idea of her being shocked once, vs a potential bite which would likely kill her at her size.
 
Yeah it seems there's 3 main schools here, all highly recommended. I'd go to one my friends just used.

She's just so sensitive, I just have to hope she only associates the shock with the snake and doesn't freak out about other things.

Mine is a quirky sharp idiot from Buccleuch lines notorious for being excessively soft. He handled it fine
 
I would do it. Really your options are a leash or the training. Baby rattle snake season is the worst.

Have you learned about the javelina yet? They have chased skiers on the slopes of Mount Lemon. And Gila monsters. They are a protected species and extremely venomous.

As my OH said when a jumping cactus was pointed out to him on a hike, “Christ even the plants try to kill you here!” 😂

ETA: All the dogs I’ve seen off leash when hiking stay next to their owners. They don’t run ahead or anything.
 
I would do it. Really your options are a leash or the training. Baby rattle snake season is the worst.

Have you learned about the javelina yet? They have chased skiers on the slopes of Mount Lemon. And Gila monsters. They are a protected species and extremely venomous.

As my OH said when a jumping cactus was pointed out to him on a hike, “Christ even the plants try to kill you here!” 😂

I pull a fricking jumping cholla out of her at least once daily. I hate them! But she's learned just to stop immediately and wait for help when one gets her. Now I always hike with a pair of pliers.

Yes re javelina though I've yet to see them here, only in Sedona so far. I don't believe they are venomous- just aggressive.
 
I pull a fricking jumping cholla out of her at least once daily. I hate them! But she's learned just to stop immediately and wait for help when one gets her. Now I always hike with a pair of pliers.

Yes re javelina though I've yet to see them here, only in Sedona so far. I don't believe they are venomous- just aggressive.

Yes the javelina are aggressive. The Gila monsters are venomous. And it’s illegal to kill them. My brother has one that lives in his front yard. When it’s on the porch he gives it a wide berth. Ie. Won’t even go near the front yard.
 
If you haven’t gone, they have tubing through the salt river canyon. It’s so fun and you’ll see the wild horses. Also a beautiful spot.

I also recommend going to Lake Havasu. It’s pretty incredible to see the bridge and it’s this wonderfully awful mix of England for American tourists with US spring break. 😂

Sorry for the off topic reply. I got back Monday from seeing my parents for the long weekend. I love AZ.
 
We have adders here and I keep my small dogs out of the vegetation in the adder areas. However twice in the last few years we've had manic barking in the back garden and both times one of them has cornered an adder. All our local vets carry anti venom and I've not heard of a fatality recently but I'd consider it for mine in this country never mind if there were rattlesnakes. You cannot watch them every second so you have to protect them as best you can🙁
 
Very common in the USA. But use the time to condition it properly, don't just whack it on and stim her.

See relevant parts of a reponse from a former world champion after she was pilloried for being pictured with her dog wearing one. I know her and she's an incredibly compassionate trainer.
She quit our sport and started her own!!

"In the United States, the e-collar is not only legal, but endorsed by the American Kennel Club. I share 40 acres with deer, fox, coyotes, skunks, Fischer and an occasional boar. My dogs run freely alongside my ATV, all wear E-collars for their protection. I submit, my dogs are happy and healthy, much more so than if they were tethered to a line.
Extremists would contend otherwise.
I own a board and train business for problem dogs. This is my livelihood. We have saved countless dogs slated for euthanasia with the use of an e-collar.
Any tool can be used to abuse an animal.
Absent these tools, hands and feet can be used to inflict pain and suffering. The person on the other end of the leash owns the responsibility for the humane treatment of their dog. Nothing can take the place of a great relationship
with your dog. Clickers do not make for a relationship, nor do leashes, prong collars, e-collars or hot dogs!"
 
I'm not sure what you guys mean by conditioning, as from what I'm reading the shock is done once and once only to the dog and that's that...

Apparently "some" dogs need a second but not many.
 
Normally you would get the dog to wear the collar for 2-3 weeks (without using it) just so that it doesn't associate the collar with the stim when you do shock it. Otherwise, dogs can become 'collar wise'.
This. I gather (recently from a friend with a dog who chased deer) that the dog wore a collar 24/7 before the big day. If she wears a collar anyway maybe not such a thing.
 
I'm not sure what you guys mean by conditioning, as from what I'm reading the shock is done once and once only to the dog and that's that...

Apparently "some" dogs need a second but not many.


When the training is done correctly, the dog will respond to the vibrations that come before the actual shock.

I’m assuming this is Pepper we are talking about unless I missed something and sorry if I did. But your adventures with her and what you write about her lead me to believe the vibration will be sufficient after she feels the shock. You don’t just shock the dog right off the rip. Rather you escalate the sensation ultimately getting to the shock.
 
Hmmm ok, everything I'm reading about the training says its just one shock. No warning or vibrations or anything, so they associate it with something unpleasant I guess.

I guess I have to put my faith in the people that do this day in day out on how they do it.

Yes it's Pepper. She only wears a collar occasionally (her HHO collar actually, with her name plate on it :) )
 
As others, I'd expect the collar to be on for a few weeks and initially not used and a positive association made before using low stims/vibration being linked to rewards. The dog has to be taught to accept low level stress and get through it and get something positive before it can tolerate an actual correction.

A big stim coming out of the sky with no prep or warning and the dog having no understanding *is* unfair, if not verging on cruelty IMO. Doing it this way also runs the risk of creating superstition. You (general you) might think the dog is looking at a snake. It might have been looking at a rock. Boom, all rocks are dangerous.
 
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I would do it .

We had a freedom fence at one time to contain one bitch we had who went off piste and chased our neighbours sheep .
It took one shock to train her. I was amazed and we went on to train all the other puppies we got through her life .
 
I’d do it, it was a common thing in Oz. Especially with a nose to the ground sniffy dog like a spaniel.
My dogs ignored the snakes anyway, I assume they smell strange, although they would chase lizards given the opportunity.
I thought you'd seen dogs screaming in pain whilst wearing them?
 
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