Would you do this to your dog?

Michen said:
Yeh this is what I thought but comments above say this is cruel so now IDK.
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I would never use a shock collar in the traditional way, never. But one shock to keep them away from snakes? Absolutely. My sensitive little flower got zapped by an electric fence once, he screamed and ran 100yds yelping, calmed down, and is absolutely fine but doesn't go near fences anymore. I wouldn't have done it deliberately but it was incredibly effective with no side effects. If it was something that could kill him, then I'd absolutely let a pro with perfect timing do it.
 
Splinters said:
I'd do it; I'm not in the USA and neither am I an e-collar user but all my dogs have been fascinated by snakes and one got very poorly after an adder bite (he was fine in the end but it was scary!).

This isn't 'training' with an e-collar as such, where you would accustom the dog to the collar, train it in recall, etc.; this is more like aversion therapy where you want an instant avoidance reaction to the object associated with the shock.

You can't control the variable when it comes to meeting snakes in the wild, so it's not even the same situation as stock-training where there's a flock of sheep in your field to work with gradually. You've no idea when/where snakes will turn up; I'm assuming snake school has some safely available.

Timing of the shock is the other aspect that has to be right and I'm betting the snake school people have that down pat. A jumpy owner and miss-timed button press could lead to all sorts of problems so I can see why they don't want you to bring your own.

It's literally a short, sharp shock and then it's done and the dog can then lead a safer, more fulfilling life.
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The key is timing and knowing the dog has associated the shock with the snake not something else, it's so easy to get it wrong. I would definitely want to explore the kinder options first, even if some people on here think it takes too long :rolleyes: At least you know you have trained avoidance of the right subject and not created a whole new issue that is hard to fix.
 
It's worth a go, but be aware it's not always effective for every dog. There's a few courses here in Oz. Mixed reports.

It doesn't appear work well for the ones who have already enjoyed hunting snakes (which is a surprisingly large cohort of dogs, and they are obviously the highest risk for bites category)
It may help the curious investigation types to learn to avoid the danger noodles, rather then go in face first.
It is likely less traumatic to the dog then treating them for the results of a snake bite.

I've considered it a few times (we have 63 types of venemous snakes in my region, and one of the world top 5 -Brown snake I know pass through my garden occasionally) but so far our dogs have proven to be relatively scared/wary and kick up a very distinct screambark at the scary monster racket when they have come across snakes so it hasn't been nessecary. Plus the wildlife here also tends let's us know when they are passing through and we avoid direct contact a lot that way. It's amazing what you get used to.

I'd be careful not to trust the training to keep your dog safe when freeroaming in high snake risk areas though. Avoidance of at risk areas and leash only walks might be the better options, if that's a possibility.
Not all snake bites are truely preventable situations..and ime the assumption that the dog will actively avoid them due to the snake avoidance training sometimes puts dogs in situations where bites are more likely to happen.

Dogs also very rarely learn from being bitten. We have multiple repeat offenders who continue to hunt any snake they can find.
 
CorvusCorax said:
We can think about what works better as the most reliable motivator/deterrent.

'Don't step into the traffic and I'll give you a lollipop'

'Don't step into traffic or you'll get a big fine'

'Don't step into traffic because it's gonna hurt'
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It does remind me of "Don't touch the hot stove or you'll get burned." It usually takes one try with that.
Sometimes a good, quick FAFO is the best for aversion.
And, those who don't live in an area with venomous snakes can take their time with less adversive methods. Death from snake bite seems to be pretty adversive.
 
Well I booked her in for this Sunday. The guy was very pleasant and said they do 5,000 dogs a year and have been doing it for 15 years so at least he is rather experienced!

I feel terrible, she's just the sweetest little thing, but I think it's being cruel to be kind because she loves her freedom and scurrying around being a spaniel and if I want to give her that, she needs to know to avoid rattlers. I know this isn't a 100% guarantee on the risk though.
 
Michen said:
Well I booked her in for this Sunday. The guy was very pleasant and said they do 5,000 dogs a year and have been doing it for 15 years so at least he is rather experienced!

I feel terrible, she's just the sweetest little thing, but I think it's being cruel to be kind because she loves her freedom and scurrying around being a spaniel and if I want to give her that, she needs to know to avoid rattlers. I know this isn't a 100% guarantee on the risk though.
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You would feel more terrible if you didn't book her in and she got bit.

I think your doing the right thing x
 
I've moaned on here before about dog trainers trying to encourage me to use an E-collar on my dog, but I think I would also go with the anti snake training.
When you think about it, positive reinforcement training is about encouraging the dog to make the right choice and I believe should be used for all "normal" training. But in the case of the venomous snakes, you don't want to rely on your dog making the right choice when the wrong one will end very badly indeed. You want the avoidance reaction to be automatic, deeply ingrained, so they just do it without thinking.
I assume you will keep Pepper away from any snakes you know of, but if the arizonan snakes are anything like south African or even European snakes, they can't be counted on to stay away from human habitation - I should know, I've unknowingly stepped over a grass snake and almost stepped on a python, not my idea of fun. And dogs in general do not seem to have an instinctive fear of snakes: they sometimes found dead snakes in the livestock guardian dogs' pens in Namibia and one of my dog's older half siblings died of an adder bite in France, though this is a rather rare thing to happen over here.
Please don't feel terrible, you're giving Pepper the best chance of avoiding danger.
 
GSD Woman said:
Aru, just more proof that everything in Oz wants to kill you.😉
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I genuinely feel like a lot of North America is worse for wildlife actually hurting people. Bar the Saltwater crocodiles who are quite frankly terrifying with the way they hunt people, and who the aussie hilarious nickname the cute name Salties.
Most of the wildlife here goes out of their way to avoid people. It's pretty rare you hear of death by snake etc. Dogs tend to antagonise snakes and get bitten unfortunately.
We see more animals die of tick paralysis, then snakes bites overall.
 
GSD Woman said:
It does remind me of "Don't touch the hot stove or you'll get burned." It usually takes one try with that.
Sometimes a good, quick FAFO is the best for aversion.
And, those who don't live in an area with venomous snakes can take their time with less adversive methods. Death from snake bite seems to be pretty adversive.
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I live in Hampshire and every single one of my dogs, going back to the 1970's, has seen venomous snakes. Only one has been bitten and that was at Tweseldown and that was because she was busy herding a foster dog who'd gone into a network of streams. She was so intent on getting him back she wouldn't have even seen the snake. I've known two people lose dogs to adder bites (both labs) that was in the New Forest, one was misdiagnosed. I also know lots of people , friends and family, who live in the NF and have never had a problem.
Some dogs experience intense pain in the course of their jobs, it's in their DNA and far from deterring them it only strengthens their resolve. I've read the research, seen the stats, repeated for 4 years? I wouldn't do it. Know your dog, know your country and just as important know your snakes!
 
Fellewell said:
Some dogs experience intense pain in the course of their jobs, it's in their DNA and far from deterring them it only strengthens their resolve. I've read the research, seen the stats, repeated for 4 years? I wouldn't do it.
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Doesn't sound like the OP's dog, though, does it?

I'm glad that we can agree that lots of dogs can undergo an unpleasant or painful sensation and not dissolve on the spot, though.

More of a general point, but every other domestic or agricultural animal is expected to undergo momentary/short-term inconvenience/stress/discomfort as part of the learning process/'for their own good', I'm not sure then, why dogs are expected to only ever have positive experiences. Better they be taught to deal with it and get through it when it happens, than to never expose them to it at all and then wonder why they can't cope.
 
Denali said:
Interesting. I’m only familiar with shock collar training in general. My experience (have friends who have hunting dogs and others with wolf hybrids that needed it) has been they wear the collar to get used to having a brick on their neck,
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The ones I've seen are no heavier than collars that have an AirTag/small tracker on them, I don't really see why a dog would need to get used to wearing one unless it has never worn a collar in its life.
 
Fellewell said:
Some dogs experience intense pain in the course of their jobs, it's in their DNA and far from deterring them it only strengthens their resolve. I've read the research, seen the stats, repeated for 4 years? I wouldn't do it. Know your dog, know your country and just as important know your snakes!
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I take a great deal of care to make sure mine doesn't catch deer, but in the beginning, he caught me off guard, never occurred to me that a whippet could catch and bring down a huge deer. He would happily take a kicking from a deer if he got to chase it and bring it down. When they have such strong prey drives nothing overcomes the need to chase. Took one zap from an electric fence to stop him ever touching one again though as there's no adrenalin or chase involved and no benefit to him. In his mind, fences hurt so he stays away. I could probably turn him loose near deer and zap him a hundred times mid chase and it would have no effect. I guess that's why it doesn't work on the dogs who hunt snakes.
 
IrishMilo said:
The ones I've seen are no heavier than collars that have an AirTag/small tracker on them, I don't really see why a dog would need to get used to wearing one unless it has never worn a collar in its life.
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Mine has a huge tracker which looks like a shock collar. I got the XL one as it only needs charging once a month and it only goes on for walks. He never appeared to notice. But the reason you accustom them to the collar is so they don't associate the collar going on with the shock.
 
IrishMilo said:
The ones I've seen are no heavier than collars that have an AirTag/small tracker on them, I don't really see why a dog would need to get used to wearing one unless it has never worn a collar in its life.
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Depends on the make and model. Dogs definitely discriminate between different types of collars/harnesses/leashes, they can feel when a collar is on or not and they feel when a remote collar is turned on/receiver has been paired with the remote or not, even if it isn't being used.
 
I'm Dun said:
I take a great deal of care to make sure mine doesn't catch deer, but in the beginning, he caught me off guard, never occurred to me that a whippet could catch and bring down a huge deer. He would happily take a kicking from a deer if he got to chase it and bring it down. When they have such strong prey drives nothing overcomes the need to chase. Took one zap from an electric fence to stop him ever touching one again though as there's no adrenalin or chase involved and no benefit to him. In his mind, fences hurt so he stays away. I could probably turn him loose near deer and zap him a hundred times mid chase and it would have no effect. I guess that's why it doesn't work on the dogs who hunt snakes.
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Many years ago my whippet cross chased a rabbit through some electric fencing into a field of sheep. She screamed, froze and I had to rescue her. After that she wouldn't go near sheep, but still chased rabbits. I agree with you, you cannot 100% guarantee that the dog becomes afraid of the right object.
 
Teaselmeg said:
Many years ago my whippet cross chased a rabbit through some electric fencing into a field of sheep. She screamed, froze and I had to rescue her. After that she wouldn't go near sheep, but still chased rabbits. I agree with you, you cannot 100% guarantee that the dog becomes afraid of the right object.
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I agree that with high prey drive that some dogs will stop at nothing. With Rudy I had to learn to call him back at the first sign of hunting behavior. There were times when I had to use the vibrated mode on the collar and every now and then he needed a low level swim.

But, in snake breaking, the set up is very controlled and when done by a knowledgeable and experienced person the dog gets the shock in such a way as to be associated with the snake.

I'm not saying everyone should do this. But, with a dog that likes to check out things and could easily be hours away from a vet in rattlesnake country can benefit.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Doesn't sound like the OP's dog, though, does it?

I'm glad that we can agree that lots of dogs can undergo an unpleasant or painful sensation and not dissolve on the spot, though.

More of a general point, but every other domestic or agricultural animal is expected to undergo momentary/short-term inconvenience/stress/discomfort as part of the learning process/'for their own good', I'm not sure then, why dogs are expected to only ever have positive experiences. Better they be taught to deal with it and get through it when it happens, than to never expose them to it at all and then wonder why they can't cope.
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Well, she's a working breed and the ones I've met are generally as hard as nails but with a curiously over-developed sense of injustice towards things they don't like.
No, of course I agree dogs won't dissolve if we put pressure on them. I was once young and competitive and my training certainly wasn't always 'reward based' but no training is without error and IMHO there's too big a margin for error with this method.
 
Fellewell said:
Well, she's a working breed and the ones I've met are generally as hard as nails but with a curiously over-developed sense of injustice towards things they don't like.
No, of course I agree dogs won't dissolve if we put pressure on them. I was once young and competitive and my training certainly wasn't always 'reward based' but no training is without error and IMHO there's too big a margin for error with this method.
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Have you read post #66? About the training and about the personality of the OP's dog.

This isn't about competition, and I've not 'competed' for six years, it's about social safety, which is much more important.

I did express concern about accidentally creating superstitious behaviour early on, but I think the OP has satisfied herself that these folks know what they are doing.
 
CorvusCorax said:
More of a general point, but every other domestic or agricultural animal is expected to undergo momentary/short-term inconvenience/stress/discomfort as part of the learning process/'for their own good', I'm not sure then, why dogs are expected to only ever have positive experiences.
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That’s a noteworthy thought, although people are now extending all training from humans on to being all positive, and look where’s that’s getting us, societally.
 
I also think that the snakes anywhere in the UK, including the New Forest, don't quite measure up to snakes elsewhere in the world.

Adders aren't nearly as aggressive as rattlesnakes. I've been lucky enough (I like snakes!) to encounter wild adders, and you can get pretty close to them for a photo without being too concerned. They are fairly docile and will only bite if really, really scared. So don't grab it, and read your snake. Like most snakes, rattlers will run if they can, but they are a lot quicker than adders to get aggressive (their venom is also stronger). No way in hell would I get as close to one as I've got to an adder. We were taught to give them a wide berth.

Because the American desert is a hot place, there is a far denser snake population.
 
The reason I felt adders were relevant to this thread is not because they're particularly badass but because I took umbrage (rightly or wrongly) to something posted by the delightfully named GSD Woman about us not having venomous snakes and being able to kick back and relax. I wasn't comparing adders to rattlesnakes although they are both vipers and they can both be a threat to dogs. The number/concentration is immaterial if it's your dog. I also believe that the behaviour of both snakes is more defensive than aggressive because more often than not we are encroaching on their habitat or what's left of it, sadly.

According to the US stats you are far more likely to be killed by a dog than a rattlesnake.

I wish the op well I hope she finds what she's looking for.
 
Yeah, but as far as I know, 'snake training' isn't a thing in the UK, whereas it is for the US and Australia. There may be reasons for this.

I just thought the behaviour of different species of snakes in wildly different climates should be pointed out, so the OP doesn't feel bad about putting her dog through something that doesn't sound all that pleasant, but might save her dog's life.

I am from Colorado, by the way.
 
ester said:
We also have a way closer veterinary network in the UK than the US has should anything get bit.
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That is so true. Every vet round here carries anti venom. My vet is 10 minutes away but there is one 5 .minutes away and another couple within 10 minutes. We have a lot of adders out front but see them rarely. The ones in my back garden are rare but pose the most danger to my dogs I feel. They are beautiful creatures though.
 
Fellewell said:
The reason I felt adders were relevant to this thread is not because they're particularly badass but because I took umbrage (rightly or wrongly) to something posted by the delightfully named GSD Woman about us not having venomous snakes
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So sorry that I forgot to remember adders.

with the exception of water moccasins our snakes don't want to be seen and will do what they can to not be bothered. Many dogs around here are bitten on the foot or face by copperheads. BTW, black snakes eat copperheads. The bites on the face are from sticking their noses too close to the snake and the feet are of course, from accidentally stepping on the snakes.

I've only seen 2 copperheads on my nature trail walks. Both were in the same section. Neither one bothered us. The dogs ran right over one. It was so still even after that that I thought it might be dead. I flicked with a dog lead and it was certainly alive.

for those of you who are unaware of this fact, the snake's head can bite for quite a while after it's dead. I can't remember if that's only if the head is cut off or not.
 
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