Would you do this to your dog?

ycbm said:
Don't watch!

You're doing the right thing.
.
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If the OP has an opportunity to watch, it will provide very important information about aversion training in general and how her dog deals with stress/negatives.
IMO deliberately not watchin goes to the heart of 'my dog will have a negative experience, but it's OK, I'm still the nice guy, because I'm not doing it, it's coming from somewhere/someone else'.
We have to own our choices.
 
Wow well that was hard tbh. And interesting. I made it clear I wanted the lowest shock possible and there were about 4 settings available. We started off with a fake snake that had a load of scent on it, he had me walk her up to it and then he started low and gave her the "warnings" to try and get her to back off (she was sniffing and wanted to get to it etc). Nothing. Her desire to investigate far outweighed what she was feeling in the collar. I guess maybe I should have expected it as she is a tough dog when she's hunting, she would always be the spaniel that would go into the thickest cover that other dogs wouldn't go near. He had to give her the max strength to get anything from her, I was really surprised. But when she did react it was a yelp and a horrible thing to see.

But wow, how effective. She certainly knew or thought it was the snake as we then tested her with a live one that was rattling and one that wasn't and she absolutely didn't want to go anywhere near them. So the benefit was that she only got shocked once, whereas he said most dogs need 2-3. But she learned instantly and quick!

It was very unpleasant, she was shaking and her tail was between her legs and I cried a little inwardly but it was all done within 5 minutes (most of the timing was explanation/a briefing). She was soon back in the car with a ton of treats and now she's absolutely fine and seems none the worse for it.

Very glad I did it and really surprised that she needed such a shock to get her to back off investigating the interesting smell/thing. Not what I expected at all, I thought the smallest feeling would send her running.

And yes I watched or rather participated, I was given the option of handing her off to an assistant but I wasn't going to put her through that and leave her with anyone else, so I was the handler.
 
Michen said:
Wow well that was hard tbh. And interesting. I made it clear I wanted the lowest shock possible and there were about 4 settings available. We started off with a fake snake that had a load of scent on it, he had me walk her up to it and then he started low and gave her the "warnings" to try and get her to back off (she was sniffing and wanted to get to it etc). Nothing. Her desire to investigate far outweighed what she was feeling in the collar. I guess maybe I should have expected it as she is a tough dog when she's hunting, she would always be the spaniel that would go into the thickest cover that other dogs wouldn't go near. He had to give her the max strength to get anything from her, I was really surprised. But when she did react it was a yelp and a horrible thing to see.

But wow, how effective. She certainly knew or thought it was the snake as we then tested her with a live one that was rattling and one that wasn't and she absolutely didn't want to go anywhere near them. So the benefit was that she only got shocked once, whereas he said most dogs need 2-3. But she learned instantly and quick!

It was very unpleasant, she was shaking and her tail was between her legs and I cried a little inwardly but it was all done within 5 minutes (most of the timing was explanation/a briefing). She was soon back in the car with a ton of treats and now she's absolutely fine and seems none the worse for it.

Very glad I did it and really surprised that she needed such a shock to get her to back off investigating the interesting smell/thing. Not what I expected at all, I thought the smallest feeling would send her running.

And yes I watched or rather participated, I was given the option of handing her off to an assistant but I wasn't going to put her through that and leave her with anyone else, so I was the handler.
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Thank you for the report. Very interesting and I hope it keeps her safe.
 
Clodagh said:
That’s a noteworthy thought, although people are now extending all training from humans on to being all positive, and look where’s that’s getting us, societally.
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Too right!
And if I catch any g.children or their little mates teasing / torturing / bullying either pets or small siblings - one very warm bottom, and the most negative sanctions I can think of.
Their are certain behaviours and situations where strong negative associations are 100% necessary - animals or humans.
 
Michen said:
Right but the training isn't a punishment type thing, as in- the aim is for her to think the snake did it (I appreciate previous comments about her perhaps not associating shock with snake, I'm just saying that seems to be what they do).

It's not a case of you've ignored me asking you not to approach this snake, you've had some vibrations and you haven't listened so now it's been upped.

She would never ignore me, if I saw her approaching a snake I would be able to immediately call her off. The point is that I may not see her seeing the snake/I want her to smell it and avoid straight away.

I'm maybe not making much sense. With a gradual introduction- how/when am I supposed to do that? Because she's not going to ignore any command I ever give her, so I'm just going to be sending vibrations or whatnot down a collar for what reason? To get her used to it? Sorry if I sound dumb I just don't really get how that works in a fully trained dog that is so responsive and obedient. I don't even need to say the word "bed" I just mouth or whisper it.
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My collie did that on his own with sheep. He was nose down on a scent, we went through a gap and a sheep field was on our left, he recall was still being worked on and he did ignore me when I called him back.

Que a huge scream and him suddenly by my side and sheeo running away. He had zapped himself on the sheep fence. And for the nezt 13 years he associated the sheep with zapping and he did not go near them 🤷‍♀️
 
Out of curiosity, how do they work them with the live snakes? Obviously real live rattlers are a bit of risk for everyone.

How do they train the snake to rattle, or not rattle, and how do they make it as safe as possible for everyone, including the snake? How do they stop the snake from just slithering off?

We had pet snakes (obviously not venemous ones) and while they are very cute, they aren't the most trainable critters. We used to make mazes for them out of fake cardboard bricks in the basement, then just turn them loose on the floor to find their way through our maze. How we didn't lose one, I don't know (why my parents let us get on with this is another question).
 
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Caol Ila said:
Out of curiosity, how do they work them with the live snakes? Obviously real live rattlers are a bit of risk for everyone.

How do they train the snake to rattle, or not rattle, and how do they make it as safe as possible for everyone, including the snake? How do they stop the snake from just slithering off?

We had pet snakes (obviously not venemous ones) and while they are very cute, they aren't the most trainable critters. We used to make mazes for them out of fake cardboard bricks in the basement, then just turn them loose on the floor to find their way through our maze. How we didn't lose one, I don't know (why my parents let us get on with this is another question).
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The snakes had their mouths taped, apparently someone does it in the AM. They are wild snakes that are caught in peoples houses and they use them for a couple of weeks then release them, they don't keep the same snakes because they don't want their scent to change from not eating a "natural" diet.

Dunno how they make them rattle or not slither off, the rattling one was just curcled up rattling and the other live one that wasn't rattling they had on a grabber thing. I didn't really see how they placed them out as I was foused on Pepper with the fake snake etc.

It was done to the side of a country feed supply building just in front of the parking lot lol.. not even a fenced in area.
 
Michen said:
The snakes had their mouths taped, apparently someone does it in the AM. They are wild snakes that are caught in peoples houses and they use them for a couple of weeks then release them, they don't keep the same snakes because they don't want their scent to change from not eating a "natural" diet.

Dunno how they make them rattle or not slither off, the rattling one was just curcled up rattling and the other live one that wasn't rattling they had on a grabber thing. I didn't really see how they placed them out as I was foused on Pepper with the fake snake etc.

It was done to the side of a country feed supply building just in front of the parking lot lol.. not even a fenced in area.
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It gets worse 😢 I'm not a snake fan, but taping their mouths closed WTF !!
 
Michen said:
Yeah, I’m happy for a snake to put up with having its mouth taped shut for a few hours for a week or two of its life to potentially save my dogs life but then I’m a terrible person so 🤷‍♀️
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It works both ways with aversive training, that may just make that snake more likely to strike/defend itself when it sees a dog or human, because of the treatment it had. It's disgusting :mad:
 
Teaselmeg said:
It works both ways with aversive training, that may just make that snake more likely to strike/defend itself when it sees a dog or human, because of the treatment it had. It's disgusting :mad:
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Not sure any of the lives snake associate my dog with anything bad tbh, she didn’t get near enough. Hence, they shock them over the fake snake/scent first.

Yeah I’m still ok with my decision. I’d be so curious to see how you’d feel seeing your dog suffer because it hadn’t had the appropriate training and got bit when it could be avoided.
 
Michen said:
Not sure any of the lives snake associate my dog with anything bad tbh, she didn’t get near enough. Hence, they shock them over the fake snake/scent first.

Yeah I’m still ok with my decision. I’d be so curious to see how you’d feel seeing your dog suffer because it hadn’t had the appropriate training and got bit when it could be avoided.
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My dogs would have had the appropriate training, but it would not have involved giving them electric shocks or being part of abusing another animal.
 
Teaselmeg said:
My dogs would have had the appropriate training, but it would not have involved giving them electric shocks or being part of abusing another animal.
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Ok well that’s great for you. I’m going to go with the method that the very vast majority of people who live in these kind of places go for to try and keep my dog safe.
 
Positive training is nicer and makes us feel better, but it's not as reliable (according to science and my own experience) and Michen decided not to take the risk.

Sure it was unpleasant but no animal goes through life without some negative experiences, I'm still not sure why dogs are somehow exempt from this. Expecting negatives to come from nature/not teaching dogs to deal with stress is much more unfair than an occasional correction to a dog that understands, IMO.
 
Amymay Again said:
With no axe to grind, only curiosity.

What would your approach be?
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I posted my suggestions much earlier in this thread. It takes longer, but involves the dog learning to avoid the smell and movement of the snake and does not involve taping the snakes mouth shut either ! Sadly no one wants to put the work in, and want that quick fix.
 
Teaselmeg said:
I posted my suggestions much earlier in this thread. It takes longer, but involves the dog learning to avoid the smell and movement of the snake and does not involve taping the snakes mouth shut either ! Sadly no one wants to put the work in, and want that quick fix.
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You posted links to a couple of trainers. I had a quick look but it certainly does seem to take a long time, and involves kennel training dogs from what I read (though I admit I just skimmed first couple of paras), can't see that would be the best method for Michen or most other pet owners. I have seen a few dogs where an electric collar was used and the reaction lasted a couple of seconds, and then the dog was back to normal. The most aversive piece of equipment I have seen used on dogs is a halti type headcollar. I have yet to see a dog who isn't either pawing at it, rubbing its face or completely shut down.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Positive training is nicer and makes us feel better, but it's not as reliable (according to science and my own experience) and Michen decided not to take the risk.

Sure it was unpleasant but no animal goes through life without some negative experiences, I'm still not sure why dogs are somehow exempt from this. Expecting negatives to come from nature/not teaching dogs to deal with stress is much more unfair than an occasional correction to a dog that understands, IMO.
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I've never said dogs should go through life without stress 🤷‍♀️ All dogs like us have a level of stress every day.

There are several published, peer reviewed studies that showed that whilst shock collars do work, reward based training worked better long term. Certainly I prefer being paid to work rather than doing it because of the unpleasant consequences if I don't.

I am no bunny hugger, but when there is a kinder alternative I will definitely chose that. Certainly I don't want another animal to suffer abuse so I can train my dog, that is horrific.
 
Teaselmeg said:
I posted my suggestions much earlier in this thread. It takes longer, but involves the dog learning to avoid the smell and movement of the snake and does not involve taping the snakes mouth shut either ! Sadly no one wants to put the work in, and want that quick fix.
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I can totally understand wanting a quick fix when your dog's life is at risk. Also, how do you get hold of rattlesnake smell? I certainly wouldn't be going anywhere near to ask one to donate a bit of BO. (it would also seem that captive snakes don't have the same smell as wild ones according to what the OP said).
 
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