Would you PTS a healthy horse

[coen]

Someone mentioned his happiness and I have have to say this horse is happy enough and definitely not in any obvious pain or grumpy in the stable or anything like that it is more like he has some sort of mental illness as today he is like butter wouldn't melt, but I know that wont last regardless of any management approach.

You guys have also made a good point regarding the handling when turned away; I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so and as it is 20mins would have to go up once a week to check him (12 live out on 30 acres) so no others regularly brought in but I have to admit I wouldn't be looking forward to bringing him in for farrier ect he would go beserk coming away from the others.

Could anyone let me know what would happen if I did decide to pts?
I was thinking the hunt would be a more suitable option as the horse is terrible with needles.
Do you think it is best to have them take him away to do it as that way I dont have to be present plus my other two horses wouldnt have to witness it.
Or is it kinder to do it at home. And if so what is the risk of distressing the other two?

 

[smellsofhorse]

Personally I would find somewhere the ire could live out happily all year.
So a decent sized field or fields with good company, a more natural way of life.

But I totally understand though if someone can’t provide this and PTS is the only option.

 

[Pippity]

Someone mentioned his happiness and I have have to say this horse is happy enough and definitely not in any obvious pain or grumpy in the stable or anything like that it is more like he has some sort of mental illness as today he is like butter wouldn't melt, but I know that wont last regardless of any management approach.

You guys have also made a good point regarding the handling when turned away; I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so and as it is 20mins would have to go up once a week to check him (12 live out on 30 acres) so no others regularly brought in but I have to admit I wouldn't be looking forward to bringing him in for farrier ect he would go beserk coming away from the others.

Could anyone let me know what would happen if I did decide to pts?
I was thinking the hunt would be a more suitable option as the horse is terrible with needles.
Do you think it is best to have them take him away to do it as that way I dont have to be present plus my other two horses wouldnt have to witness it.
Or is it kinder to do it at home. And if so what is the risk of distressing the other two?

I'd suggest contacting the BHS Friends at the End service. They can talk you through the options of what's available in your area.

http://www.bhs.org.uk/welfare-and-care/euthanasia-and-friends-at-the-end

 

[milliepops]

Could anyone let me know what would happen if I did decide to pts?
I was thinking the hunt would be a more suitable option as the horse is terrible with needles.
Do you think it is best to have them take him away to do it as that way I dont have to be present plus my other two horses wouldnt have to witness it.
Or is it kinder to do it at home. And if so what is the risk of distressing the other two?

I think the answers to these questions depend on what he's like to load/travel etc.
If that is likely to be difficult then I would make arrangements to do it at home. If you make the arrangements with hunt/whoever will collect him in advance then you won't need to be involved too much at the time. Would your husband be able to step in? I think I would mention his unpredictable behaviour to whoever you call out just so they are aware.

I think the horses left behind get on with life without being distressed so wouldn't be too worried about them, you can manage that however you think is best. In the past I've either seen the horse to be pts taken away to a field or somewhere else with easy access out of sight, or just shut the other horses into their boxes with hay/feed and let them out when it's all taken care of. Some people like to let the other horses see the body but that's a personal choice and I don't think it matters in the end, if you don't want to do that.

 

[eggs]

Personally I would find somewhere the ire could live out happily all year.
So a decent sized field or fields with good company, a more natural way of life.

But I totally understand though if someone can’t provide this and PTS is the only option.

The problem with this though is what about the farrier, etc. What happens if he gets injured and needs treatment?

In your case I would pts. Like Seville, I knew a horse that became very unpredictable to handle to the point of being dangerous and hospitalising more than one person. The owner had the horse pts and on post mortem a brain tumour was found.

I am of the opinion that a person's safety is more important than a horse's life.

 

[be positive]

The hunt or local knackerman would be the best option, if you post your area someone may be able to give you a recommendation, I would do it quietly at home there is no reason for you to stay as long as someone hands the horse over, I have had several pts at home and the other horses have never been overly concerned even the one that was in full view because he reacted to the sedation and wouldn't move the pony watching was not distressed in any way although if using the gun they may jump at the sound, think of it as the kindest thing you can do for him, he may appear happy but it is likely there is something wrong to set him off in the way you describe.

 

[Merlod]

You guys have also made a good point regarding the handling when turned away; I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so and as it is 20mins would have to go up once a week to check him (12 live out on 30 acres) so no others regularly brought in but I have to admit I wouldn't be looking forward to bringing him in for farrier ect he would go beserk coming away from the others.

If I was an owner of one of the 12 other horses I wouldn't be happy to be paying for retirement/rest type livery and a horse like yours being added to the herd. You have said your horse went for your other gelding, presumably he's on his own at the moment so how will you know how he will get on in a herd? The risk to handers, the other horses and un-assuming members of the public is too much.

 

[Annagain]

Sorry you're facing this

I'm a big believer that the sort of behaviour you describe is because of a physical / emotional issue in 99% of cases. Knowing there's very likely to be an issue and finding it are of course two entirely different things. If you've done all the checks and you can't find an issue then you don't have a way of stopping that suffering so yes I would pts. The fact he's dangerous is also a big factor but to me it would be more that he is almost certainly suffering in some way that would make my mind up.

 

[Ceriann]

I really feel for you and given your update (and the history) it sounds more a question of when not if. I've had two Pts at home - I was with them and companions close. They all adjusted well. Given what you've said I would do this at home, so as to ensure he's calm and not stressed when it's done (which will be easier for you to deal with too post the event).

 

[coen]

There is definitely a local hunt that have a good reputation I have just never had to do anything like this unsure of what is kinder.
The horse will load/travel although I haven't needed to do so for a couple of years with him.

This sounds a bit morbid but if by the gun at home, how would they move his body?
Cant they use a silencer on the gun (maybe I have been watching too many films) if the other horses are in stables next door?
Is there blood ect that i would need to clean & the other horses could smell ect?

 

[DabDab]

It was me who said about him being unhappy, and I meant 'happy' in an all round well-being kind of way. Please don't think that I meant you had it (now or ever) in your power to make him content, or that he hasn't had the very best standard of life and care. It is fairly obvious from what little you have written on here that he has had everything possible to help him. I just meant that considering pts is no unkindness when he is distressed enough (even if only for a brief period at a time) to act as you describe.

I hope you're able to make the whole thing as easy on yourself as possible, your OH sounds very supportive

 

[DabDab]

There is definitely a local hunt that have a good reputation I have just never had to do anything like this unsure of what is kinder.
The horse will load/travel although I haven't needed to do so for a couple of years with him.

This sounds a bit morbid but if by the gun at home, how would they move his body?
Cant they use a silencer on the gun (maybe I have been watching too many films) if the other horses are in stables next door?
Is there blood ect that i would need to clean & the other horses could smell ect?

He will be put down somewhere with access and then they will winch his body up a ramp onto the lorry. There will not be much blood. They are all very professional so will make it as straightforward as possible for you

 

[Follysmum]

Depends on the situation really. We have a horse that’s not safe to ride as too unpredictable but not dangerous on the ground and is sound. after spending a lot of money with vets and other professionals we still had no answers other than dont ride it . We decided to retire him ( he was 6) and he has been a companion for 9yrs.

If he had been dangerous to handle we would seriously have had to think about PTS

 

[be positive]

There is definitely a local hunt that have a good reputation I have just never had to do anything like this unsure of what is kinder.
The horse will load/travel although I haven't needed to do so for a couple of years with him.

This sounds a bit morbid but if by the gun at home, how would they move his body?
Cant they use a silencer on the gun (maybe I have been watching too many films) if the other horses are in stables next door?
Is there blood ect that i would need to clean & the other horses could smell ect?

I think it definitely kinder to do it at home, probably easier for the people involved as well just in case traveling sets him off and causes a fight to control him.

They have a trailer/ lorry with a winch to load the body.
The gun is not that loud but you can hear it, I would do it outside on grass ideally, there is not usually much blood a couple of buckets of water should be enough to wash it away and again mine have walked past without concern, they are sensitive but if you are calm and act normally after the event they should be totally fine.

 

[TelH]

There is definitely a local hunt that have a good reputation I have just never had to do anything like this unsure of what is kinder.
The horse will load/travel although I haven't needed to do so for a couple of years with him.

This sounds a bit morbid but if by the gun at home, how would they move his body?
Cant they use a silencer on the gun (maybe I have been watching too many films) if the other horses are in stables next door?
Is there blood ect that i would need to clean & the other horses could smell ect?

They are winched on to a trailer or lorry. It's not particularly pleasant but you have to remind yourself that that the horse knows absolutely nothing about it. I didn't watch that part when it was my own horses but I've seen it with other horses.

I've never had one of my own shot (had 2 done by injection and one died in his stable) but where I used to work they used the gun sometimes and I never saw any of the other horses do more than a little spook at it, some never even reacted. In my experience there was very little blood (a bucket or 2 of water was all that was needed to wash it away).

When my old boy died I brought his pal in to see him before his body was taken away. He just walked up to the stable door, lowered his head and stood and looked for a bit. His pal had never experienced death before (he is a home bred) but he wasn't at all freaked out by it. After a minute or 2 he went to walk off so I gave him a carrot and put him back out in the field.

 

[GTRJazz]

I am interested in peoples views on whether or not you would consider putting down a healthy horse based on behaviour?
If a horse is dangerous

No I would sell the horse as dangerous to ride if he is healthy.
I looked at one sold as hot under the saddle I rode the horse in the field as the seller did not want to get on and it bronked me off as soon as I went from walk to trot.
I said she was best to change the advert to "will try to get you off" which she did and it sold for £800 which is not meat money.
I knew someone who had a big hunter which was nuts they sold it to a dealer and less that a year later it was jumping a big course of jumps, the dealer kept it for himself as he liked the horse so much

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for the opinions it is really helpful.

I have owned the horse in question for over 8years and there have been numerous accidents to myself and others over that time. Nearly two years ago I bought a house with land and decided to stop riding him completely and was more than happy to keep him as a field ornament so to speak.
And whilst he is not bat **** crazy every day you just never know when he will be, I manage everything around him, he is in the paddocks nearest the yard ect but even so in the past year I have been kicked, my husband has been ect and now I don't let the groom put out or bring him in ect.

The most recent incident was at the weekend when I was bringing him in from the field (30 secs from yard!) he reared up multiple times striking out & getting me in the shoulder & head before galloping at & biting my other gelding who my husband was about to get in. The other gelding bolted in a panic back to the yard and had a really bad fall on the concrete (we are still assessing the damage as he has now gone lame in front).

So the husband thinks enough is enough and I am inclined to agree but he thinks PTS and I am a little soft (and have never had to do that even with an ill horse so no idea what to expect).
So I am considering turning him away locally but I am just not sure what the best thing to do is. If pts is selfish or if not doing so is just being weak.
I would never pass on the horse to anyone else I couldn't bare for him to be a welfare risk he has always been looked after and had a good life.

The horse you describe is not healthy. You just can't see what it wrong with him, but something is.

I would PTS no question, and have done with one similar.

 

[SpottyMare]

No I would sell the horse as dangerous to ride if he is healthy.
I looked at one sold as hot under the saddle I rode the horse in the field as the seller did not want to get on and it bronked me off as soon as I went from walk to trot.
I said she was best to change the advert to "will try to get you off" which she did and it sold for £800 which is not meat money.
I knew someone who had a big hunter which was nuts they sold it to a dealer and less that a year later it was jumping a big course of jumps, the dealer kept it for himself as he liked the horse so much

What you're describing is completely different to the OP where the horse is unpredictably dangerous to handle on the ground...

 

[ester]

No I would sell the horse as dangerous to ride if he is healthy.
I looked at one sold as hot under the saddle I rode the horse in the field as the seller did not want to get on and it bronked me off as soon as I went from walk to trot.
I said she was best to change the advert to "will try to get you off" which she did and it sold for £800 which is not meat money.
I knew someone who had a big hunter which was nuts they sold it to a dealer and less that a year later it was jumping a big course of jumps, the dealer kept it for himself as he liked the horse so much

Did you not read the bit about being dangerous to handle?

 

[Ceriann]

Mine were pts outside where pick up could be doneceasily. The first I took her companion with her so as to avoid any chance of upset (was injection though). I haven't seen the pick up itself but they are very good at sorting it all out without you being there. It's not pleasant and whilst your horse is gone by that point I never wanted that as a memory.

 

[ycbm]

No I would sell the horse as dangerous to ride if he is healthy.
I looked at one sold as hot under the saddle I rode the horse in the field as the seller did not want to get on and it bronked me off as soon as I went from walk to trot.
I said she was best to change the advert to "will try to get you off" which she did and it sold for £800 which is not meat money.
I knew someone who had a big hunter which was nuts they sold it to a dealer and less that a year later it was jumping a big course of jumps, the dealer kept it for himself as he liked the horse so much

Does it not bother you that some unscrupulous dealer could drug the horse or dehydrate it, sell it and some unsuspecting person be hurt or killed? I could not have that on my conscience.

 

[Tiddlypom]

No I would sell the horse as dangerous to ride if he is healthy.

Read the full thread first?

He is dangerous on the ground too, both with people and with other horses.

 

[SEL]

If you go down the route of the hunt then the sound of the gun may well make both you and the other horses jump (if you're there - don't feel you have to be), but its in that 'quick spook and then over' kind of way. Mine have been in both their paddock and stables for horses PTS by the hunt before and have both gone back to eating immediately after the bang.

There will be blood, but it isn't much and can be swilled away by a bucket of water.

Removal of the body is done by winch into the back of a closed trailer. I've watched it with other horses (inc one that died in its stable so removal was difficult) and I wouldn't recommend it if its your own horse.

If you go down this route then explain the situation to the hunt. Our local hunt are very thoughtful and will bring another person who can hold the horse for you and will just ask for a bucket of food so the horse is kept calm. You don't need to be there. If you have a friend or your OH who can take over on that day for you then even better.

I really, really feel for you OP. I have one with behavioural problems and I will be her last owner because I wouldn't take the risk of someone getting hurt - and mine is nowhere near as bad as yours sounds. Wishing you all the best with this difficult decision xx

 

[coen]

Thanks so much guys this has really helped and given me a lot to think about.

And Dabdab sorry if i came across in the wrong way i certainly didn't take offence to the happiness aspect I only mentioned it as I was once on livery where a horse seemed generally unhappy e.g. grumpy & agitated both in the stable and turned out and in a way that would be easier for me personally as I could feel like I was putting the animal out of misery where as my horse is seemingly oblivious and it is us humans that are miserable

As for the comment about selling I wouldn't do that with him, i do take the point that just because a horse isn't right for someone it doesn't mean that there isn't someone else that could get a better outcome but that is too risky. And over the years I have had this horse on schooling liv with professions ect whilst we were trying to overcome his rearing/tantrums and I can tell you the behaviour with them was still there (although they were far better at staying on). The general outcome is that it is just his temperament.

But I now feel way better informed on the options for pts and I am going to give it real serious consideration over the coming days.

Thank you all so much

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I am interested in peoples views on whether or not you would consider putting down a healthy horse based on behaviour?

If a horse is dangerous to ride, and has then been retired so to speak but is also unpredictable in hand and therefore not an easy companion to have at home and causing risk putting out/in from the field.

Would you have the horse pts on the basis that everything had been tried over the years and it is more hassle than it is worth/accident waiting to happen.

Or would you pay for an alternative place where he could be turned away year round.
Considering that you would then incur a financial cost, regularly monitor welfare encase it didn't do well without a rug ect and be liable for any other issues e.g injuries/damaging fences ect?

Depends what you mean by everything.

If I had checked everything pain related - back - teeth- bloods -ultra sound etc then saddle physio etc etc etc. Then If I could not handle it safely on the yard, lashing out at me, cannot groom as bite or turns back end on me in stable feeding mucking out. Attacks me when catching in, and wont lead becasue it bolts off or bites or kicks, then yes I would. I would cover everything I mentioned before I made this decision, but if handling was ok then I would just leave as a grass ornament.

 

[GTRJazz]

I do know a really good trainer that works breaking race horses she sits on and gets someone to chase the horse forward with a schooling whip every time it goes to rear can give you her number if you like.

Fixed one of my horses that bolted and had such a Violent spook three different people broke their hands without actually falling off, one a instructor, and my loaner who was a very good rider gave up after a fall.

He is going really well for us now needs to be kept away from high sugar grass and always ridden in an outline bent to the inside

 

[twiggy2]

Yes without doubt,

 

[LaurenBay]

I do know a really good trainer that works breaking race horses she sits on and gets someone to chase the horse forward with a schooling whip every time it goes to rear can give you her number if you like.

Fixed one of my horses that bolted and had such a Violent spook three different people broke their hands without actually falling off, one a instructor, and my loaner who was a very good rider gave up after a fall.

He is going really well for us now needs to be kept away from high sugar grass and always ridden in an outline bent to the inside

I really don't think this Horse needs to be chased with a whip. I would not send mine to someone who thought that was a correct way of riding. I pray you never have a Horse like OP's.

Also the only true cure for a bolter is a bullet. I suspect that you meant to write tanking off.

I am starting to doubt if you are posting to get a rise out of people.

 

[weesophz]

I am interested in peoples views on whether or not you would consider putting down a healthy horse based on behaviour?

If a horse is dangerous to ride, and has then been retired so to speak but is also unpredictable in hand and therefore not an easy companion to have at home and causing risk putting out/in from the field.

Would you have the horse pts on the basis that everything had been tried over the years and it is more hassle than it is worth/accident waiting to happen.

Or would you pay for an alternative place where he could be turned away year round.
Considering that you would then incur a financial cost, regularly monitor welfare encase it didn't do well without a rug ect and be liable for any other issues e.g injuries/damaging fences ect?

sounds a lot like a friend of mines pony. shes had him for 2 years and he came to her a nervous wreck. she came so far with him but has hit a brick wall. hes still a nightmare to catch and we have to bring all the horses in for her to even have a chance of catching him, and even then he waits til youre about to fasten his halter and then bolts off! shes paid out hundreds in professionals trying to make him relax, he is the most tense pony every head constantly in the air, he almost killed her daughter when they tried to back him and the two people shes paid to try and back him had no success. he is very unpredictable can be walking one minute then launching into the air the next.

we have all advised her to cut her losses as she would never make back what shes spent on him, and she bought him as a project to bring on and sell. shes very attached to him but i have to say if it was me i would have had him PTS as he wouldnt even be any use as a companion pony.

ETA he has had a full MOT to ensure his behaviour wasnt pain related

 

[Snowfilly]

I would, if you've checked everything you can think of, have him put down at home. My uncle had a coloured cob back in the 70s who was meant to be broken to harness and used for driving; he became more and more unpredictable and dangerous to handle on the ground and eventually reared up and put someone in hospital. A few days later, the cob knocked down much of a stable wall with his head, causing horrific injuries to himself and was found dead with his skull smashed in. Vet and knacker found a brain tumour; a horrible, terrifying end and one my uncle still regrets all these years later.

And think of your own safety as well; in all honesty, you can't inflict this poor horse on other horses or humans which means he becomes your responsibility for everything. What happens if you get the stomach flu and can't get there? If you want a holiday and can't leave him with anyone else?

For my own peace of mind, I think I'd sleep better knowing he was safe and out of whatever physical or mental distress he's in - and safeguarding everyone else who might come into contact with him. Poor horse and poor you; I hope you find some answers and peace.