Wow this looks cruel...

stargirl88 said:
No he's not going to kill another dog - but if your dog does lunge and want to kill another dog.... shouldn't rehab work be in place rather than a check on the lead??? Or is that the rehab work?
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Personally, in order for me to even BEGIN rehab work, I had to break his concentration.
A year after he first tried to attack a puppy (and I mean, one of my trainers had to leap in and pull him off the pup) he stood passively in front of an SV judge, with me hiding behind a corner, as the same puppy, now an adult, walked past him. He was not wearing the pinch. But I could not have got him to that stage without it.

As I said on the other thread, this is not an advertisement, I do not think they should be available on Ebay, they are not a fix for pulling or other problems, they should only be used on dogs which have been assessed, under the guidance of qualified trainers (for me, a combination of 70 years experience!) and only sold or leant through proper training clubs.
 
The amounts of dogs I have to deal with, if a check used 5 times can then have a dog on a slip for the rest of it's days and helps me to save another dog from a yellow sack the next day then it's worth it, I had an owner bring a mastiff over last week because they had been to training and paid for one on one and the dog was still pulling like a train, the dog came with a check chain on, I took the dog, and on step on it near enough took my shoulder out of joint, I checked the dog 3 times and thats was enough and im not sure why people say you lose the dogs focus, because that dog and all the others I have worked with, will then watch me to refrain from correction, dogs are not stupid, the owners where amazed, and also commented I never used the chain the way the others trainers had taught them, they had tried a halti and she clawed the skin from the side of her face resulting in stitches whilst trying to rive it off and they did not want her in a halti perminantly as they thought it looked like a muzzle.

I watched them then walk the dog for as long as I deemed it took for them to perfect the walk and now they have her on a half check and collar.

There is obs a technique, the way you hold your arms, the lead, the type of lead you use, your command, it' s not a case of walking and yarking, walking and yarking, and the dog sounding like a train:rolleyes: it's a short sharp correction a command and walk. dog on your left, lead in your right:D

Each to their own, I personally hate relying on treats, hate harnesses, dont like a dog in a halti perminantly (looks horrid) I like my few checks then swap to slip....simples.

One of my puppy spangeys was also pulling and the trainer had suggested half check then told them to let her pull to the end and stand still and pull her back (literally off her feet and in a heap at their feet, then off again:confused:
It was actually OH who worked with them, he checked that dog once from the side and that was enough, now she is on a slip, I have to say (I give her due, smart for a spangle) they where also holding the lead stiff above waist height in the middle of their body.
 
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stargirl88 said:
No he's not going to kill another dog - but if your dog does lunge and want to kill another dog.... shouldn't rehab work be in place rather than a check on the lead??? Or is that the rehab work? :confused:
Click to expand...

And how would you suggest i started that if i couldn't snap him out of it and get his concentration?
 
right... if you think I'm having a go, I'm not. There are a million ways to train a dog out there... just because I don't use a check chain I'm not telling you or anyone else on this post that you're out of line!
Each to their own and all that.

Want to make that clear!
 
CaveCanem said:
Main reasons for pulling -
He isn't getting enough exercise
Dogs move faster on four legs than humans on two - he wants to get somewhere quicker than you can take him
He is pulling against an inhibitive force (the lead) - vicious cycle


What breed is he, and what are you using now?
Click to expand...

I think his reasons are all of the above!!

He's a chunky Collie Cross weighing 24kg (vet said good weight for him)

Here he is playing with my ferret:


At the moment he's in a half choke collar.

Thank you for your suggestions, I'll do a bit of research :)
 
stargirl88 said:
right... if you think I'm having a go, I'm not. There are a million ways to train a dog out there... just because I don't use a check chain I'm not telling you or anyone else on this post that you're out of line!
Each to their own and all that.

Want to make that clear!
Click to expand...

I know, your posts just sounded like everyone who can use one correctly is lazy and taking the easy way out when its quite the opposite.
 
Gorgeous video!

I've no expereince of them whatsoever, however have just come back from the states, and there was a program on TV about these collars, and it said they were pretty dodgy things, that could cause severe damage to the tracchhea over time... I'd like to think that there would be another way of training without using this collar.
 
I'm not a trainer/behaviourist etc. But I do handle thousands of dogs each year for a short amount of time. What irks me more than a short/sharp lesson with a harsher collar is someone who is hauling their dogs around with a leather or nylon collar or a dog which is dragging his owner, trying to maul other dogs etc. If you look in SY or NL, you will see this argument over and over again with regard to bitting (swales was a hot topic last week - give it another few weeks and no doubt it'll be waterford or some other type of harsher bit). The premise is the same.

I have not used a prong collar, I have never had the need for it (my dogs are all small and with fine necks, and for the most part, don't drag or pull. One of my dogs tries to attack other dogs, but I can usually curb that with the use of my voice and getting his attention). But I have used chokes, I use a slip lead now and again, and I certainly prefer any of these over a harness unless I want to get dragged around! If I had the need for a prong collar, I would use it as a means to an end, not as a quick fix or a fashion item, or as a matter of course for training.
 
This is my first post, on the canine section, and I'm rather hoping that I don't get shot at for my thoughts!

I have trained a dog or two in my time, for a variety of disciplines. It's generally been my experience that poor heal walking whilst a dog is on a lead, is because the dog has been trained whilst ON that lead. I ALWAYS teach youngsters to walk to heal whilst they are OFF lead, and before they go on it. Direct lead contact is to be avoided, if at all possible. Sometimes it's inevitable, which is why we have the lead, that I accept.

To remind the dog where my heals are, and assuming that he's walking on my left side then I will use the outside of my left foot. This is NOT kicking the dog, it's a light contact. This also teaches the dog that I don't have to bend down to reach him. A valuable lesson.

I have never used training aids, of any sort. I think that, possibly in very experienced hands, and in the case of a really bone headed dog which has no respect for his handler, then there may be a justification.

I know of a first class working sheep dog who was deafened by the use of an electric collar. It had been turned up to full power, and as the owner couldn't get the dog to stop, it's continued use deafened the poor creature. The dog was stone deaf. The waste of a lovely dog. Presumably, the owner resorted to it, because of his own inabilities. I have never used an electric collar, and never will.

I loathe those halti things, as much as the dogs who are wearing them seem to. So often I've driven about towns and seen people walking their dogs in them and to date I've resisted the temptation to get out of the car, tell them to take the horrible thing off the dogs face, and TEACH the dog to walk to heal, properly! Extending leads? pointless in my view, and that applies to spiked collars. I wouldn't think that they are inhumane, just pointless.

There will be those, who use training aids, who reading this will think that I'm judging them. I'm not. It's just that I prefer to control a dog without physical contact. In a strange sort of way, I find it easier.

Alec.
 
Welcome to AAD, everyone is entitled to their views, and if your training methods work for you then great.
Out of interest, do you not take your pups out on the roads until you have them walking perfectly to heel off lead, mine are on the lead from an early age so I can socialise , wouldn't like to risk taking a 12 week old pup out without a lead.
Shocking about the sheepdog , was it the actual electric impulse that damaged his hearing, or did the owner have the sound response turned up high? What a shame that a dog that could be trained to sufficient level to work sheep so well could be ruined in this way.
 
I'm with you on the young-dog-leaning-off lead thing... but it isn't easy and remember this isn't quite so simple with an older dog who's learnt bad habits ;) esp one with aggressive tendencies.
Yeah alot of dogs DO hate the haltis, but alot of the time they aren't introduced properly! Just like muzzles at the vets!!!! If I'm teaching a dog to accept a halti - there would be at least a week of me putting it on and then feeding him, or playing with him, or just doing something positive... so it's not just me chucking it over his head and him resisting it. I'm not a huge halti fan but I do know they can be effective!
 
A1b2c3, that is a very interesting post. It is certainly my experience that my dog walks to heel far better off the lead than on it.

However, I would still not take him into a situation where it is essential he remains with me without the backup of a lead. These situations would include walking along raods or walking in fields with livestock.

I also think that the field of 'training aids' is so wide that it would be unwise to dismiss them all out of hand. I use a clicker, for example, which is a training aid, but one vastly removed from a check chain or prong collar. I also use a tennis ball as a training aid, and other toys. These are aids for positive reinforcement, while a prong collar is clearly an aid of a different kind.

I also think that there are great differences in training a dog from a young puppy, and retraining - or starting from scratch - with an adult dog. With an older dog one is often trying to break ingrained habits as well as establish new ones, and this can make training aids essential :)
 
Honey08 said:
Gorgeous video!

I've no expereince of them whatsoever, however have just come back from the states, and there was a program on TV about these collars, and it said they were pretty dodgy things, that could cause severe damage to the tracchhea over time... I'd like to think that there would be another way of training without using this collar.
Click to expand...

I have actually read research from the USA using PM results of dogs which show that conventional check and slip collars cause more damage than prongers. The difference is, correctly fitted, collars such as this should be high on the neck and deployed in a swift, quick, upward movement.

If the collar/chain is low on the neck (and a lot of people put them on upside down and use inappropriate widths and lengths of chain/rope) and the dog is constantly straining against it, then windpipe damage is inevitable.
 
a1b2c3 said:
I wouldn't think that they are inhumane, just pointless.
Click to expand...

OK, but without one, I believe my dog would be dead. Obviously it would be great if I owned him from eight weeks and I started from scratch, but as mentioned in the linked thread, I did not, I owned him from six and started at 12 months and he is strong enough to pull grown men over.

I am delighted you have always had great results with positive methods.
So did I, before this dog came along. People have to realise that not all dogs are the same and people should not condemn certain tools and training methods and say there is never any place for them to be used any more than they should say 'clicker training and only clicker training works'.
One of the three people who advised me was a clicker training expert. All three use balls as rewards for their own dogs.
All three told me after assessment that if I fired a canon next to the dog, waved a raw steak in his face or released a bagfull of tennis balls in his face, it would not work, I had to break his attention before I could even begin to start with the positive back-up.

Sorry you had a bad experience with an e-collar, but it was not the e-collar's fault, it was the fault of the person using it. Again, I have seen dog's lives saved through the proper use of this device.

Re heel training, yeah, I don't like Haltis much for the work I do. I want the dog to want to walk beside me and spend time in my company, not because there is something over his face.
 
M.M. thank you, and you're right, in that I'm not sure that "methods" is really the right word. If it is, then they should be adaptable, and fit the dog, as well as the handler. Another subject, for another time, perhaps!

I believe that the puppy which you have at 16 weeks, is the dog which you will have in the future. Assuming that the puppy leaves his dam at 8 weeks, then the next 8 are the most vital. I wouldn't take a puppy out onto the public highway until it was at the stage where it will listen to me, and sees me as, for want of a better word, top dog, and that would probably be at the magical age of about 16 weeks.

The young collie? I don't quite know how the owner managed to make such a mess of it, but he did!

Sg88, a dog walking to heal OFF the lead has to think about where YOU are. A dog on the lead, feels secure. It knows exactly where you are, and relies upon the lead, and though not always, that same dog tends to be half a dog in front of you! I'm still going to take some convincing about haltis!

Spudlet, when I mentioned training aids, it would have been better had I used the word "restrictive". As a "for instance", if you have a collie and you want it to balance with you, and whilst it's on sheep, then the best way, is to play football with it! A football becomes a training aid, as does a dummy for gundogs, a tennis ball and a whistle for all. I would need to think about this for a while, but I "think"(?) that, for me anyway, training aids are useful for encouraging a dog to move forwards and mature mentally, but not for instilling discipline, but I'm here to be told that I'm wrong!

You are so right about the difference between a puppy which you've started yourself, and a dog which others have made a mess of. In my youth I took on the rejects, seeing them as a challenge. God, but they can be hard work, can't they?! Back to basics is probably the only answer, and though there will be an improvement, the difficult dog will generally revert back to it's old ways, given half a chance.

CC, I once took in a 3 year old Springer, and that did pull me off my feet! The hounds came by, he sat patiently, I wasn't really paying attention as I was nattering with someone, and the next thing I new, I was on the ground! I had a word with him about it, but 4 months later, he was sent home. A pity, he was a lovely dog, and if only I'd had him as a puppy.........!

I know nothing of clicker training. I once watched a demonstration at Burghley where a horse, unknown to the demonstrator, was brought into a small arena. The effects were remarkable, I'll admit, but I've yet to see a pro using the system. The other point is that I think(?) that it relies upon a food inducement, and sadly perhaps, that's another pet hate of mine, along with haltis!!

I want my dog to LISTEN to me, and not through bribery. It's probably an excuse for another thread, but attached to my dogs as I am, I ALLOW them to work, certainly whilst they are young. It puts the whole work ethos onto a different plain, and along with that comes a change of attitude from your dog.

Some will agree with me, whilst others wont. I suppose that we're now back to the first response, in that we all employ different methods!

Alec.
 
Doing bull terrier Welfare I get in bullies without a clue about polite lead work.To help get the message over,as well as using the usual about turns ..so that eventually it will start to look where you are going,I use a g`rot collar;these are thin cord placed high up the dog`s neck and can be either on fixed or slip.They were invented to get precision training on working dogs..but they suit my purpose ideally.I used to use a very thin check chain ,and that achieved retraining well,but this is less likely to cause any marking or reddening on the dog`s neck,so guess it must be a bit kinder. It`s the insistance of pet bull terrier owners that use harnesses "cos it stops him pulling" that drive me nuts.Try as I might I cannot get them to see it ,even when I explain that huskies have harnesses for PULLING sleds. I also have a nifty slip collar ,more run to it ,again of thin cord,works excellently.These are all available from John Humphries in Sussex ,who sells all manner of working dog gear.
 
The 'click' in clicker training is the bridge between the desired action and the reward - it can be any reward, a special toy would work just as well as food IMO, although food is more usual and is what I use. I don't train exclusively with the clicker, but it is very useful for teaching new behaviours in a very precise way as the click can be given at the exact moment that the dog does whatever it is that it's meant to. For example, it was through clicker training that I have taught my dog a very passable retrieve, by helping to channel his instinct in a step-by-step way. We now no longer need the clicker as he understands what it is that I want from him.

TBH I am not sure why food is regarded as bribery any more than any other reward - dogs all work for some gain, whether that's a treat, a favourite ball, praise and a fuss or being allowed to do their favourite thing, any and all of which could be termed bribery. All dogs are different and really it's a matter of finding the right buttons for each individual dog. Henry doesn't have food for every good action - sometimes we train with none at all - but at other times the treats come out as a reinforcement.

My trainer is a huge fan of clicker training, and works her own dogs in the shooting field :) She trains through play and the clicker.
 
The best results and by that, I mean, the best working dogs I see, are driven and rewarded through play/ball etc.

EK, I think our club must be John Humphries' best customers :D
That 'Illusion' collar that Cesar uses and gets so much stick about, is merely a slip collar with a bit of scaffolding to keep it in the correct position!
I've seen those very thin jobbies as well.

I think, and it is something that we discussed over one of our many, many tea breaks :p last week - you read as much as you can, you speak to and work with as many people as you can and you pick and choose what works for the individual dog.
I've delved into everything from old police dog training books (and old policemen :p) to Leerburg, to Jane Donaldson who abhors the use of 'strangle' collars but is brilliant at rationalising the way dogs think, along the way.
 
EAST KENT said:
even when I explain that huskies have harnesses for PULLING sleds.
Click to expand...

This is why I get worked up when I see husky owners walking theirs on a harness and a flexi-lead, arm outstretched, being towed along at a merry pace - arahghghghghh. :mad: :p I ought to get commission from Snowpaw store for the amount of people I recommend their gear to.

FWIW, I had great success with a halti (non-doggy OH could not be trusted to use a check chain effectively) on a six month old dog who'd been walked exclusively on a nylon collar and flexi and pulled like a thing possessed. I now have a nearly one year old who walks politely on anything, including a harness, until given either a freedom or specific pull command. I still use a check or half check in situations where she may fixate and, god forbid, bribe her with food to offer an alternative behaviour. I maintain that sibes are a breed apart and not trainable to nearly the same extent as other dogs. :p
 
Sheri said:
PS can anyone recommend a type of lead/ harness/ collar to stop my big collie x from pulling? He's not naughty just really excitable but strong! He was a rescue that I presume was never taught to walk properly on a lead. I've tried all the tricks in the book stopping, walking backwards nothing seems to work :(
Click to expand...

If you have the time and patients then you don't need to change your collar/lead or add any unnessisary(sp) gear...

Start in the garden put dog in sit put lead on start to walk in a straight line (say heel as you start) if dog pulls you do a 180 turn and continue walking (every time dog pulls) he/she will eventually realise that if they get ahead/don't pay attention they'll get left behind. Reward the dog when they return to heel/ or if the walk on a loose lead (if heel is not yet established). When they can do it in the garden progress to walks etc

The KC Good Citizens Award dog trainer said to use a choker on Jake (only took him once) went to my canine lecturer at Uni he told me to do this (he helped me with it at first) and within 20 mins Jake was concentrating on me on a loose lead (hadn't completly grasped heel - took a further 2 training sessions) :D
 
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a1b2c3 said:
This is my first post, on the canine section, and I'm rather hoping that I don't get shot at for my thoughts!

I have trained a dog or two in my time, for a variety of disciplines. It's generally been my experience that poor heal walking whilst a dog is on a lead, is because the dog has been trained whilst ON that lead. I ALWAYS teach youngsters to walk to heal whilst they are OFF lead, and before they go on it. Direct lead contact is to be avoided, if at all possible. Sometimes it's inevitable, which is why we have the lead, that I accept.

To remind the dog where my heals are, and assuming that he's walking on my left side then I will use the outside of my left foot. This is NOT kicking the dog, it's a light contact. This also teaches the dog that I don't have to bend down to reach him. A valuable lesson.

I have never used training aids, of any sort. I think that, possibly in very experienced hands, and in the case of a really bone headed dog which has no respect for his handler, then there may be a justification.

I know of a first class working sheep dog who was deafened by the use of an electric collar. It had been turned up to full power, and as the owner couldn't get the dog to stop, it's continued use deafened the poor creature. The dog was stone deaf. The waste of a lovely dog. Presumably, the owner resorted to it, because of his own inabilities. I have never used an electric collar, and never will.

I loathe those halti things, as much as the dogs who are wearing them seem to. So often I've driven about towns and seen people walking their dogs in them and to date I've resisted the temptation to get out of the car, tell them to take the horrible thing off the dogs face, and TEACH the dog to walk to heal, properly! Extending leads? pointless in my view, and that applies to spiked collars. I wouldn't think that they are inhumane, just pointless.

There will be those, who use training aids, who reading this will think that I'm judging them. I'm not. It's just that I prefer to control a dog without physical contact. In a strange sort of way, I find it easier.

Alec.
Click to expand...

Agreed with CC...
I have never used a prong collar myself but I have experienced the static shock collar (on the lowest level!) and haltis - without the use of which, I believe our GSD would still be very aggressive and walks would be unpleasant. Me and my dad worked at a GSD district training club for 12 years (obv at first I was just training my dogs, with me being so young) but once I was 15/16 I started to help training the puppies and agility, and I have seen many training aids used wrongly resulting in a step backwards in the dogs training progress, so in one way I agree with you - some dogs simply don't need them.

However, Haltis may not look attractive, but for us they are lifesavers..and to quote "TEACH the dog to walk to heel, properly!" I believe is inaccurate.
When we've walked dogs on haltis we do NOT get dragged along by them constantly with their faces scrunched up with them steaming along ahead of us - our dogs walk by our left side, at heel, with the lead slack and in our right hand; we believe the lead is not there to drag them or hold onto! The Halti is simply a training aid which we find invaluable to get the attention of the dog and should we require greater control, that too :) (example; when our GSD saw another dog and decided to launch herself across the road it was good to be able to get a control of the head and therefore the body's strength and refocus her attention) Haltis were also useful when my mum had her op on her neck and couldn't risk any jolts or sudden movements should the dogs have spotted a squirrel or something similiar!

A lot of my training involves road work especially as puppies for socialising with vehicles etc so I wouldn't like to put a puppy off lead for training - and when I was helping to train my ex boyfriends husky...we used a lunge line for months as there was no way I was letting a young husky loose too quickly!! :p (recipe for disaster!) Huskies seem to blinker out the world once they realise they're loose, as beautiful as they are!

In my opinion, I love the way that training dogs is so variable but I do believe it so heavily depends on the individual dog...if its the line between the dog being able to be walked without problems or the dog being PTS, I would have no qualms about seeking experienced qualified trainers who may use controversial methods in order to rectify the behaviour.
Fantastic work that your methods have worked so far though! :)
 
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I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say training methods depend on the individual dog. Some trainers running classes really do not know how to cope with a difficult dog, I have been to classes (purely to socialise pups) and cringed at the training methods.
Being nosey, was the GSD club you were involved with in the Manchester area? I used to go to shows run by some northern clubs.
 
Agree MM, if the method works for the handler and dog and there will be many a different method thats what counts, and others can take what advice they want and work to get a result, both me and OH train dogs differently on some aspects but we get the same results, oh and Im better:rolleyes::D:D:p
 
Though some people may think I'm against chokes etc I'm not but I am against them being used incorrectly. I have seen dogs in prongs and they seem very comfortable in them and if it helps to rehabilitate then ok to me . I do have an issue with prats and how they use any tool with animals . I have a hideous picture of me with my Nans Airedale when I was about nine and I have her sitting and I still have the choke tight and feel ashamed every time I see it . And having our dog nearly die in front of us due to a choke it makes me cringe when used badly . In huge rush excuse mess!!!!
 
I hope my dog doesn't look uncomfortable in my sig :)

He knows what it is. He lets me put it on. The day he shies away from my hand or runs and hides from it (like he does when he sees me coming with ear drops or a bucket of water :p) then I'll have a rethink.
 
What I like best about this part of the forum is that we all have very different ideas on training methods but generally we can discuss them in a friendly, non-punch-up-y way:)
 
MurphysMinder said:
I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say training methods depend on the individual dog. Some trainers running classes really do not know how to cope with a difficult dog, I have been to classes (purely to socialise pups) and cringed at the training methods.
Being nosey, was the GSD club you were involved with in the Manchester area? I used to go to shows run by some northern clubs.
Click to expand...

It was Bolton & District GSD Club (yes in Manchester, sorry!) ?
I'll have either been in the kitchen at shows or meandering round the rings doing random oddball jobs! :p
 
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