AmyMay
Situation normal
It's about to be discussed on Jeremy Vine.
It's only a pig. Get over it!
Alec.
As long as the pigs are definitely completely unconscious and unable to feel any pain, I cannot see the ethical problem.
Pigs go through worse in farrowing crates and in being electrocuted to make your bacon, guys.
Yes, IF they are anaesthetised. We have to hope so. I suspect that in some test facilities they are not, because anaesthetics and painkillers cost money, which affects the bottom line, of course
. At least this is useful - as above, it saves lives. As long as the animals are guaranteed insensate, it's okay by me.
It's about to be discussed on Jeremy Vine.
Very well said.Removing bullets from civilians is not too frequent an experience in most NHS hospitals - and the facilities and circumstances are rather different from the front line! The pigs are anaesthesised before they are shot - and PTS at the end of the surgery. I'd say LESS sufering than when they go to make pork chops! And they're helping save the lives of soldiers who are in dangerous situations!
For those who don't care for the practice, on moral or ethical grounds, I wonder how you'd feel if you had a loved one, a son or a husband, mortally wounded, and the skill of the operating surgeon was down to his experience, on living and still breathing, but anaesthetised pigs. Were it me, I'd be grateful for the porker's input!
It's only a pig. Get over it!
Alec.
Maybe pigs could be replaced by willing human volunteers? No different to other medical tests presumably and would possibly be cheaper to pay a human than for the pigs, vets and H&S. Failing that it could be a prison lottery where all the nasty kind of criminals' names are put in a tombola?
Absolutely. You'll be telling me next that none of you wear make up or use cold remedies...................
Its an animal has feelings.
poor piggies
I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything! why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear.
We are in the 21st century I think the surgeons should know enough by now on
how to get a bullet out
repair the would and try save the person.
We are in the 21st century I think the surgeons should know enough by now on how to get a bullet out, repair the would and try save the person.
Umm every bullet wound is different. No two are ever the same because of the numerous variables I could list in this post...
Someone very close to my heart has just got back from Afghan and if someone operating on a pig meant (if he had been injured) that his life was saved, then that's fine by me.
I'd also like to ask those who suggest a simulator, instead of live tissue (which is the best way of learning to operate on) how they'd suggest a simulator could react as though a body has lost all four limbs, major chest injuries, major shrapnel injuries, open neck wounds because that is how badly some of our guys get injured from one blast. Oh and I forgot to mention that due to power of adrenaline, they can still be conscious moments after the blast.
Find me a simulator good enough to react in that sort of situation, without HUGE expense to the MOD which they can't afford (and I doubt the NHS could either) and I'll go save the piggies myself. People forget that the ONLY reason we have trauma medicine is because of war. That's where it started, that's where it's being improved - the Bastion hospital is the best in the world for very good reason. Now most, if not all of those staff across the 3 services will spend the majority of their time in the NHS before and after their three month tours. If their experience, developed by the use of pigs under GA, improve the chances of mine, my family's, my great uncle Bob, the guy walking down the street etc etc chance of survival when ending up in A&E then I'm not going to complain...
(And before someone calls me a holier than thou arrogant human, have you ever considered where you precious leather saddle has come from? )
I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything! why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear.
GOOD GRIEF.....!!!!!!
Lets hope you or your loved ones never get injured!!!! How on EARTH do you think surgeons are able to hone their skills? Playing that "Operation" board game?!!
They aren't born knowing what to do so they have to practise on something, it's never going to be humans so they use the closest alternative.
Human life will always come before animal life.
Those pigs probably had a better life than most commercial pigs in the UK...
Anesthetised means they felt no pain what so ever during this procedure....one small prick of a needle initially to deliver the drug then they knew no pain,thats not a bad way to go.
Meanwhile the surgeons learned valuable skills needed to save lives and limbs out on the field. Live surgery is a hundred times different to even a newly dead animal,live animals organs react differently to manipulations and drugs, the bodies anesthetised movements and the way blood flows is near impossible to replicate.
How do you think vets learn to do surgery? It isn't so long ago that terminal surgeries were used in the vet schools as well, tbh its a pity they were discontinued but cost was to high....We still learn on live animals by doing the basic procedures like spays/castrates, C sections in cattle and then being supervised on more advances procedures in our early years by more experience colleagues..
why should we expect less of our medical colleagues? There is so much more at stake for them. Plus as pigs are very similar in organ size and reactions to humans it makes a lot of sense.
It's not just the army folks! My OH owes his life to a surgeon who told him with a big grin on his face that the artificial heart valve that he had just fitted was "the largest one I have ever put in a human".
Do I think that was fair on the pig? Since the OH's life expectancy was 6 months and is now 24 years, yes, I think I do.
But in that case, the valve would have come from a dead pig. Same goes for bovine ones.
It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway
.......
It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway