wwyd dilemma

[LadyGascoyne]

I think that if we strip the motivation away, we have an old, unwanted, unsound, arthritic horse which cannot be ridden. This story does not have a happy ending.

This does not mean that I agree with the motivation. On the surface, I probably disagree with it- but that is all these posts ever are: just the surface.

My opinion would be to have the poor old mare PTS. I cannot see that there is any other option for her. The whole situation is desperately sad.

 

[Wagtail]

It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con.

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.

I am a pro. I've had many horses. I have had to make that 'decision' only once. And it was my favourite horse ever. Lots of people told me to PTS on here a whole two years before I did. But only I knew when it was time. I am thankful in the knowledge that she was PTS at EXACTLY the right time. She never got to suffer and was happy and perky the day she died. But I knew that it was all down hill from there. If I had PTS sooner as urged by people on here, then I would have been plagued by guilt as it was way too soon. It was hard enough making that decision when the time was exactly right.

The other horses that have been PTS have been so because it was a medical emergency such as colic or broken limb. And that is in 40 years of ownership. None of my horses have ever been sold on. Only one left my care and that was to go to my sister.

 

[Mithras]

Mithras it's clear you feel strongly about your stance, and that is absolutely your right. I am pleased that you have always been in a position where you have been able to home and care for your retired horses. (I have had one horse that was still with me in old age and I had him for 24 years, just for the record. Every other horse I have owned, I know where it is or how it lived out its life, so I am not speaking with a guilty conscience. I currently have one standing in a field who could reasonably be there another 15 years!). But this is not everyone's reality. Of course people should think before purchasing and make arrangements but life does not always go according to plan.

If I'm giving the impression that I'm against pts in the right circumstances, then I apologise. Its just that I'm honestly rather disgusted at the increasing number of pts threads on here recently from what is in the main rather novice horse owners. I also wonder if its a regional thing - I must admit to being quite critical of the Scots at times but from what I see of a lot of people here, particularly in the Central Belt and the Borders, is that they are really doting on their horses. Sometimes the people that act the toughest are the ones that do everything they can by their horses when they are no longer doing the job they were bought for, whether they are rich or poor. Maybe I just mostly know people like that in the horse world. I know when I moved to a quite different part of Scotland, I was quite shocked by the different attitudes to pts and horsemanship.

As for the OP, well I guess no-one who ever left home and didn't live with their parents ever had a horse at livery before.

 

[babymare]

agree tarrsteps

 

[undergroundoli]

In that case, I don't think people should buy horses if they do not consider what they will do with them in a few years time, should their circumstances change or the horse become ill or unsound. I think when you buy any animal, you make a commitment, as the greater species, to look after that animal for its natural lifespan. You see it with people who buy puppies and then want rid of them because they can't train them or its no longer so cute when it become an adult dog. I think treating horses as disposable material goods to be killed when they are no longer convenient to their owners isn't something that should be encouraged, by making pts healthy horses mainstream.

As much as I'd love a dog I wouldn't get one (or a cat), I'm not stable enough to grantee I could provide it with a home for life. However I'd get a youngish horse with the idea I'd probably be selling it as my circumstances changed. Horses with some experience are valued, and I'm confident I could find it a good home. Loads of horse owners don't have the experience to own a youngster, and I'm not sure how one would acquire it without having owned an older horse. The horse loving community is strengthened by the sale of middle aged horses, and it allows us to care for our horses better.

I wouldn't get an 18 year old, say, but if my theoretical horse developed some issue that meant it was unsuitable to be sold I'd PTS in a heartbeat rather than not be in an economic position to have children.

 

[MissMoo]

Agree Tarrsteps

 

[Goldenstar]

This all about personal opinions and views personally I never keep a horse that's not sound ( not talking about 12m circles on the hard on the lunge here ) can't graze at least 70% of the time in summer ,who can't have the company of its fellows , who is too stiff to be stabled ( it's just too exposed here ).
You have to find the right time for you based on all sorts of things and the economics is part of that for some people .
I don't feel guilty about any horse I have PTS I did feel a bit strange about CF but that was an unusual situation and it was done after a very frightening experiance .

 

[undergroundoli]

No, as previously stated I'd face up to my responsibilities and get an evening job/forego a couple of luxuries to put it on retirement livery. This is because I personally could not have it on my conscience that I'd killed a happy horse because I'd gone off it and didnt want the hassle.

You asked, and that's my own personal opinion

I don't think I know nearly enough about the OP's education and plans for furthering it, current job, location, transport costs, family commitments, relationship or spending patterns to have an opinion about how she can provide for the horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

People have commitments that are not compatible with all this though, especially living in a cheaper area.

I'd love to own a house with land, and if I moved to Scotland I could probably afford one. However my partner spends most of his weekends in Bognor Regis helping his parents look after his grandfather who has dementia, and I check in on my mother in Oxford fairly regularly. The is a distinct lack of cheap areas in the South East and we live in a scuzzy part of South London, where two bed flats conveniently located for stabbings start at about 300,000.

I bet loads of people on hear have ties that make owning a home with land unrealistic.

Life is the art of the possible.



Aside from the lunatic turn her out on a nice moor idea I agree. You've provided her with two years of retirement. People do need to move on with their lives, its not healthy to be economically stuck in kidulthood.

Love the quote.

 

[HazyXmas]

I think that if we strip the motivation away, we have an old, unwanted, unsound, arthritic horse which cannot be ridden. This story does not have a happy ending.

This does not mean that I agree with the motivation. On the surface, I probably disagree with it- but that is all these posts ever are: just the surface.

My opinion would be to have the poor old mare PTS. I cannot see that there is any other option for her. The whole situation is desperately sad.

Well said. Also totally agree with Tarrsteps.

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.

 

[HazyXmas]

This all about personal opinions and views personally I never keep a horse that's not sound ( not talking about 12m circles on the hard on the lunge here ) can't graze at least 70% of the time in summer ,who can't have the company of its fellows , who is too stiff to be stabled ( it's just too exposed here ).
You have to find the right time for you based on all sorts of things and the economics is part of that for some people .
I don't feel guilty about any horse I have PTS I did feel a bit strange about CF but that was an unusual situation and it was done after a very frightening experiance .

More sensible advice My sentiments exactly.

 

[Wagtail]

Well said. Also totally agree with Tarrsteps.

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.

I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old.

 

[Mithras]

Well said. Also totally agree with Tarrsteps.

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.

For goodness sake, do we have to be subjected to the repeated "how lucky a horse is to die" line?

The horse won't know anything about it, and has no concept of being "lucky". At least be honest and admit its the owner that will feel good about the certainty provided by pts, and not the horse, which will simply cease to exist.

 

[TarrSteps]

If I'm giving the impression that I'm against pts in the right circumstances, then I apologise. Its just that I'm honestly rather disgusted at the increasing number of pts threads on here recently from what is in the main rather novice horse owners. I also wonder if its a regional thing - I must admit to being quite critical of the Scots at times but from what I see of a lot of people here, particularly in the Central Belt and the Borders, is that they are really doting on their horses. Sometimes the people that act the toughest are the ones that do everything they can by their horses when they are no longer doing the job they were bought for, whether they are rich or poor. Maybe I just mostly know people like that in the horse world. I know when I moved to a quite different part of Scotland, I was quite shocked by the different attitudes to pts and horsemanship.

As for the OP, well I guess no-one who ever left home and didn't live with their parents ever had a horse at livery before.

Fair enough but I restate my point that arguing people shouldn't buy in the first place is a bit shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Having spent most of my horsey life in a part of the world where horse purchase and ownership is more expensive I'm amazed at the number of people who live very close to the economic line here and have horses. Fine if it all works out, quickly disastrous if it doesn't!

I think it's a useful conversation to keep having though. Again and again. So those people who have not had personal experience keep thinking about the possibilities.

Especially in the current economic climate.

Having had horses put down for people and, even worse, having been the poor sucker who has had to take horses to auction because the owners can't or won't care for them, I have no illusions.

My only point to the OP is don't kid yourself about the chance of the horse having a long and happy life with someone else. It's all very well to say get another job or whatever but given how many people now can't even get that done to look after their kids, don't count on it.

 

[ester]

No, as previously stated I'd face up to my responsibilities and get an evening job/forego a couple of luxuries to put it on retirement livery. This is because I personally could not have it on my conscience that I'd killed a happy horse because I'd gone off it and didnt want the hassle.

You asked, and that's my own personal opinion

but what if you already have an evening job and don't really do luxuries...

I've been there, done that and only just had enough money to fund myself... and as I said before are you really suggesting that retirement livery is suitable for a mare with sweetitch?????

 

[Goldenstar]

I have done the auction thing too although I did not take the horse in the ring .
I touched her nose prayed she had a soft landing and left her in the stable .
I have also had the appalling experiance more than once as a welfare officer of realising with horror the aged horse we where preparing to PTS on extreme suffering grounds was a horse I had known in its competitive prime .
I have seen a mare waiting to go to slaughter wicker and force her way through the group when she saw me at one point her life she had a blonde owner who perhaps dressed and sounded like me .
She haunted me for months .
Bad bad things happen to some old horses .

 

[ester]

The horse won't know anything about it

Is this not the point?

 

[marmalade76]

A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you. This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled. At some point she still would have got to this age. Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible. When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'. Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above. Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.

Cripes, it's a good thing that your view is a minority, otherwise anyone looking for a been there, done that schoolmaster type (novices, children) would be completely stuffed!

And as for irresponsible, charities are over run due to people NOT doing the responsible thing!

 

[Mithras]

Fair enough but I restate my point that arguing people shouldn't buy in the first place is a bit shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Having spent most of my horsey life in a part of the world where horse purchase and ownership is more expensive I'm amazed at the number of people who live very close to the economic line here and have horses. Fine if it all works out, quickly disastrous if it doesn't!

In East Central Scotland, within reasonable commuting distance of Edinburgh, you will need to spend around £650,000 to get anything with land attached. I appreciate the Borders are cheaper and you might get something around the 400k mark, or even 350k. Properties with land are like hen's teeth though and go for a premium. So my experiences there were mainly of DIY livery at around £150 a month plus costs, or full livery at £400 a month. There are of course cheaper places to buy with land in Scotland but I wouldn't want to live there/wouldn't be practical to live there which is why it will be another year before I get my own place.

Isn't it strange how there seems to be less outcry over horses no longer being wanted and pts than dogs and cats? There are people out there who will just abandon an animal once it grows up or proves slightly difficult to handle, whether that be a dog, cat or a horse. Personally don't find it acceptable and I don't think pointing that out is harmful, quite the opposite!

 

[HazyXmas]

For goodness sake, do we have to be subjected to the repeated "how lucky a horse is to die" line?

The horse won't know anything about it, and has no concept of being "lucky". At least be honest and admit its the owner that will feel good about the certainty provided by pts, and not the horse, which will simply cease to exist.

You mis-understand Mithras, i'm am not saying that the horse is lucky to die. My opinion is merely that she is lucky to have been in the same home for 6 years & if she ends her days, whether that be now or in 10 years time, in the same home, having been suitably cared for, she will be lucky.

I believe that there are worse fates that a quick, painless death. I have my own stiff elderly horse & one that suffers with SI so i do know the realities of dealing with these problems. I currently have 6 horses & have owned many, many other's. I love them to bits & they are a huge part of my life. I care for them alone & worry about their every move. However, i also have four children & at the end of the day they are most important to me, i would not put a horses welfare above that of a person.

This is what makes the forum so interesting, the fact that everyone has different views & ideas. Can we agree to disagree?

 

[Patterdale]

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.

I have a child, but not grown up. I will always teach him that if he has pets, they are his responsibility and it is up to him to make provision for their care if his circumstances change.
If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified.
I managed to move out of home with an elderly pony with Cushings without the necessity to have it shot. It's not impossible, or uncommon.

For goodness sake, do we have to be subjected to the repeated "how lucky a horse is to die" line?

The horse won't know anything about it, and has no concept of being "lucky". At least be honest and admit its the owner that will feel good about the certainty provided by pts, and not the horse, which will simply cease to exist.

This.
The sugary language on this thread is really getting quite sick inducing. Say it like it is or don't say it.

 

[Patterdale]

... as I said before are you really suggesting that retirement livery is suitable for a mare with sweetitch?????

OP said she's fine with a rug on, so why not?

 

[Goldenstar]

OP said she's fine with a rug on, so why not?

Only in a fully electric fenced paddock and the retirement liverys I know dont stable during the worse times of day or remove rugs daily , the retirement liverys I know would not be suitable for a sweet itch horse .

 

[Wagtail]

I have seen a mare waiting to go to slaughter wicker and force her way through the group when she saw me at one point her life she had a blonde owner who perhaps dressed and sounded like me .
She haunted me for months .
Bad bad things happen to some old horses .

That has really upset me. Poor little mare. It's just heart breaking.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con.

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.

In answer to your question;
I am against the disposal of animals for convenience.

I think it is 51 years since I was first lifted onto a saddle. In my adult life, I have owned and paid for 7 horses and cared for many more.
One of those, magnificent mare was PTS aged 10 due to aggressive and severe arthritis and currently, I have one that will never be ridden again, aged 16yrs. I have no qualms about having her PTS when medication is no longer keeping her pain free and an active and full member of a herd. My decision will be based on her best interests, not mine.

With each horse I've bought or taken responsibility for, I have first thought realistically about whether I could forsee a time when I would not be able to offer a home for life. For any of us, unforeseen circumstances happen and when one's back is against the wall, euthanasia may well a responsible option for a horse with severe issues.
This is not the case with the OP. Her's is a lifestyle choice. I do have some respect for her though. She at least sees it as a moral dilemma, not taken lightly. Unlike some of the posters here who so often rush to join the chorus of shouts to have an wanted horse put down.

My impression is that a significant number of those shouting to PTS, are young and inexperienced and have never faced the dilemma themselves.

 

[undergroundoli]

If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified.

Living with your parents aged 25 is not just 'hassle' though, is it?

 

[ribbons]

And it's also the owner who feels good about doing anything other than pts, not the horse.

If the decision is the wrong one, either way, I'd rather it was pts sooner than necessary than keep it alive longer for our own feelings.

I know someone who has a dog with a paralysed hind end. It is taken out to toilet by way of a towel under middle as a sling because only the front legs operate.
It lies in corner of kitchen annoying her when it barks whilst she's busy or on phone, it barks for various reasons, one being thirsty and couldn't get to bowl and relied on bowl being brought to it.
When I asked why she didn't put to sleep she said, because he's not in any pain.
Not in physical pain maybe but must be in mental torture.

Basically she hasn't got the guts to make the right decision, despite the dogs condition driving her nuts.

Who's the winner there. Miserable owner, miserable dog.

 

[HazyXmas]

I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old.

Don't know how to do a 'smiley face'!!

You wait till they're 25 & still living at home with their 24 yr old arthritic, SI mare, you might be pleased to see the back of them then
Everyone's circumstances are different. I'm very lucky that i'm willing & able to keep our horses even when my daughter heads off to Uni in a years time. I'd be pulling my hair out if i had my boys stuck at home because of a horse, but maybe i'm just a mean mummy.

 

[Mithras]

I have a child, but not grown up. I will always teach him that if he has pets, they are his responsibility and it is up to him to make provision for their care if his circumstances change.
If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified.
I managed to move out of home with an elderly pony with Cushings without the necessity to have it shot. It's not impossible, or uncommon.

Thank goodness for someone saying this. I must have been brought up that way too. I am shocked at the parents who are saying how awful it would be if their children were inconvenienced by having a horse they had got bored with - do they not think there is a greater lesson to be learned in what type of person they are raising? I don't think encouraging people to throw away animals like an old pair of shoes is to be encouraged. How sad that its become some kind of radical, extreme viewpoint.

This.
The sugary language on this thread is really getting quite sick inducing. Say it like it is or don't say it.

The "horses would prefer to be dead than maybe something one day perhaps bad happening to them" line is sad to read. I prefer the more honest ones.

 

[khalswitz]

The work harder line offends me. I am 22, live with my parents, work a full time job and work in a bar at night, don't drink, don't really go out, don't buy clothes, don't spend money on luxuries. I can comfortably afford my horse, anything he requires incl emergency vet and Physio/chiro/new rugs etc. However, there's no way I would live like this for a horse that was un rideable.

I tend to buy young horses, as then I know they can be sold on, but I wouldn't keep an old, lame horse in the same way I wouldn't keep a young horse that wasn't right for me or doing the job I want it for. The difference is that there are fewer options for an old, unrideable horse, so PTS is further up the list.

My attitude comes from a combination of havin owned lots of horses with old injuries/conformational problems/ mild lameness that I've managed and kept ridden, but that weren't insured for that reason, and the deal with my parents was always that if they went lame, I had to have enough money in my hand to fix the problem, or else PTS. My first horsey job was at a riding school, and whilst if they could they would rehome as a companion or a light hack, if not they were pts - there was no money for horses not working.

So I have quite a utilitarian view on horses. Doesn't mean I don't love them to bits, but they ARENT children, they are animals, and being pts means that the buck ends with me and I know that I have taken responsibility. I don't have the money for two, an I spend all this money to ride and compete, not for an equine pension fund.

Equally though, I've never kept a horse from a youngster to the point of retirement. I might feel differently then.