wwyd dilemma

The human comparisons are pointless. We don't put down people so we shouldn't put down horses? Well we don't eat people either so should we not eat animals? We don't sell people so should we not sell animals? We've got a different set of ethics for animals (rightly or wrongly) and as long as we're breeding animals under these terms not the human ones slaughter has to be ok. Unwanted animals have to be slaughtered or wtf else happens to them?

To the people not ok with putting down unwanted horses, are you ok with, say, sheep slaughter? What about all the excess cockerels like mentioned before? I'm ok with putting down unwanted animals of any kind because if I wasn't I'd think myself a hypocrite for enjoying the view of the fields full of happy spring lambs, even though many of their little lives will be short and if you took one home and got to know it it would surely have a charming individual personality. Unless you are a vegan, you've no moral high ground by claiming that (fairly) healthy horses shouldn't be pts as far as I can see.
 
Flame_ said:
To the people not ok with putting down unwanted horses, are you ok with, say, sheep slaughter? What about all the excess cockerels like mentioned before? I'm ok with putting down unwanted animals of any kind because if I wasn't I'd think myself a hypocrite for enjoying the view of the fields full of happy spring lambs, even though many of their little lives will be short and if you took one home and got to know it it would surely have a charming individual personality. Unless you are a vegan, you've no moral high ground by claiming that (fairly) healthy horses shouldn't be pts as far as I can see.
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I always ask this question. And everyone usually tells me horses and dogs are different from farm animals? :confused:

Have never had a straight answer from anyone other than vegetarians. Obviously they are different :)
 
Flame_ said:
To the people not ok with putting down unwanted horses, are you ok with, say, sheep slaughter? What about all the excess cockerels like mentioned before? I'm ok with putting down unwanted animals of any kind because if I wasn't I'd think myself a hypocrite for enjoying the view of the fields full of happy spring lambs, even though many of their little lives will be short and if you took one home and got to know it it would surely have a charming individual personality. Unless you are a vegan, you've no moral high ground by claiming that (fairly) healthy horses shouldn't be pts as far as I can see.
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Funny you should ask that, as I can't bring myself to eat lamb. No problem with people who do, but I just can't eat it. I don't eat that much at all actually.

Jess_Tickle - the best answer I've had to that dilemma is don't make pets of the animals you want to kill and eat.
 
Jesstickle said:
I always ask this question. And everyone usually tells me horses and dogs are different from farm animals? :confused:

Have never had a straight answer from anyone other than vegetarians. Obviously they are different :)
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I don't think so. Even a dog, if my situation were to change and, for example, I had to go into council housing where a pet was not allowed, I would PTS my dog before becoming homeless (and obviously if he wasn't rehomable). However since pet dogs don't work, unlike most horses, rehoming is easier. They are also less expensive, and less time consuming (still need exercise, but no long drive to the yard, mucking out, turn out, ride etc drive back).
 
Jesstickle said:
I always ask this question. And everyone usually tells me horses and dogs are different from farm animals? :confused:

Have never had a straight answer from anyone other than vegetarians. Obviously they are different :)
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lambs and cows are raised to eat.... dog's are raised to be my pets/family


if horses were farmed to eat i too would have no issue with this

(im not veggie!!)
 
Interesting how people think the PTS option is the trendy one.

In my view is completely the reverse. The new attitude is to treat horses as pets, which are indeed owed a home for all their healthy life, in my opinion.

Trendy is believing a horse is owed a home for life even when it can no longer be ridden, and is not even fit to be a companion.

I had never come across that attitude until I came onto HHO.
 
So an animal raised for meat has less right to life than one raised as a pet?

Why?

Does it make a difference to the animal? No of course not.

This is what I mean by a straight answer. Totally illogical to suggest a pet horse has more rights than one raised for meat. They are capable of the same thoughts etc.

I will never understand people. I really won't.
 
Jesstickle said:
So an animal raised for meat has less right to life than one raised as a pet?

Why?

Does it make a difference to the animal? No of course not.

This is what I mean by a straight answer. Totally illogical to suggest a pet horse has more rights than one raised for meat. They are capable of the same thoughts etc.
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no...i didnt explain myself very well...


every animal on the planet has a right to live, breathe and be treated with respect - even those going for meat....

as long as they are pts humanely i have no issues....

no less right to life - just the path they are set to go on really....?
 
Jesstickle said:
So an animal raised for meat has less right to life than one raised as a pet?

Why?

Does it make a difference to the animal? No of course not.

This is what I mean by a straight answer. Totally illogical to suggest a pet horse has more rights than one raised for meat. They are capable of the same thoughts etc.

I will never understand people. I really won't.
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Perhaps that's because you've got a very specific answer in mind that you want them to say?
 
noodle_ this is what I think. Hence me thinking it is ok to PTS any unwanted horse frankly.

I wouldn't chide a farmer for having his cows slaughtered after all as long as it was humane. But so many people make a distinction and for the life of me I will never get it!
 
Putting down pets and especially horses involves lots of ethical and moral decisions and most are very personal to each of us! I don't believe you can compare it to farming.
 
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cptrayes said:
Interesting how people think the PTS option is the trendy one.

In my view is completely the reverse. The new attitude is to treat horses as pets, which are indeed owed a home for all their healthy life, in my opinion.

Trendy is believing a horse is owed a home for life even when it can no longer be ridden, and is not even fit to be a companion.


I had never come across that attitude until I came onto HHO.
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This.

I just couldn't be bothered to try & make such a complex reply on my phone.
 
amandap said:
Putting down pets and especially horses involves lots of ethical and moral decisions and most are very personal to each of us! I don't believe you a compare it to farming.
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But that is only looking at it from a human perspective. And I see no ethical problem other than the ones we construct. If you'd eat a pig you should be happy to shoot a horse surely?

They are only different from the shooter's perspective. From the animal's POV they amount to the same thing do they not?
 
Mithras said:
In that case, just tell people what you want them to say?

What is it then?
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I want to know why it is not ok to shoot an unwanted horse but it is ok to kill cattle/pigs/chickens to eat. From the animal's side the end result is the same. It died to serve a human purpose. So why is one acceptable and one not?
 
Jesstickle said:
noodle_ this is what I think. Hence me thinking it is ok to PTS any unwanted horse frankly.

I wouldn't chide a farmer for having his cows slaughtered after all as long as it was humane. But so many people make a distinction and for the life of me I will never get it!
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amandap said:
Putting down pets and especially horses involves lots of ethical and moral decisions and most are very personal to each of us! I don't believe you a compare it to farming.
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this and this - - i dont think you can compare cows (bred for meat say...) and a horse bred to be a working horse as someones pet/working animal (not actually bred for meat)




so to me the distinction between meat and "pet"...cannot be seen as the same

hope i have made sense in my little head !!
 
Jesstickle said:
But that is only looking at it from a human perspective. And I see no ethical problem other than the ones we construct. If you'd eat a pig you should be happy to shoot a horse surely?
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I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities. Its basic common sense. The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints. We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury. Its evolution.
 
Mithras said:
I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities. Its basic common sense. The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints. We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury. Its evolution.
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But what difference does it make to the animal?

You assume you are the only one who counts in this...
 
Mithras said:
I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities. Its basic common sense.
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basically this ^^^

my horse is a working animal (suppose for category sake - pet... i.e i wouldnt eat her!)... as she was bought to work.... if the meat man bought her - shes would have been bought to eat...

that kinda thing.

its not nice but - its the way of the world.
 
Mithras said:
Well, it wouldn't make any difference to me either if someone shot me tomorrow, as I would then be dead and would know no more about it.
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so why chide someone for wanting to humanely destroy a horse then? As you say, you'd know nothing about it if someone killed you after all.

The horse wouldn't either.

therefore OP is really not doing much wrong surely?
 
Logically the is no reason not to slaughter a horse like we slaughter cows.

We are scared of where logic takes us and have areas we act on by feeling to protect our core values from too much logic, and for lots of us that line divides horses from pigs.

Probably because it would make it ok to shoot people with no families and friends if we were too brutally logical about things.
 
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Jesstickle said:
I want to know why it is not ok to shoot an unwanted horse but it is ok to kill cattle/pigs/chickens to eat. From the animal's side the end result is the same. It died to serve a human purpose. So why is one acceptable and one not?
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My cousins are farmers, but when one jersey cow [the only dairy type cow on a beef farm] was sick.......... because it was a favourite QUOTE "we even sent for the vet" so some animals are special even among beef farmers.
It was living on the farm because it was a present to my God Daughter, it was a birthday present when she was 10! and it lived to the age of 18!!!
 
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Jesstickle said:
so why chide someone for wanting to humanely destroy a horse then? As you say, you'd know nothing about it if someone killed you after all.

The horse wouldn't either.

therefore OP is really not doing much wrong surely?
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Because its illogical. Its a sport, albeit not all people do it competitively, but whatever you do is based on the partnership you build and maintain with your horse. So logically, if you are the type of person to pts a horse when you get bored with it/lose motivation/it no longer suits your purposes, unless you are a very talented rider, how else are you going to succeed in that sport?

And even if you give up that sport, how are you going to come across to other people as a nice genuine person, if that's the way you treat a horse which you have had for several years?
 
Jesstickle said:
But that is only looking at it from a human perspective. And I see no ethical problem other than the ones we construct. If you'd eat a pig you should be happy to shoot a horse surely?

They are only different from the shooter's perspective. From the animal's POV they amount to the same thing do they not?
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Of course it's all from a human perspective we are all humans! Farmers have already made their decision about producing and killing animals to eat and those animals have to be happy and healthy. I wonder if they view their dogs the same way?

It isn't the same for many humans nor is it the same for farm animals v most large pets who are killed at home. Yes they all end up dead but we humans are the ones making the choices and most of us do see it differently!
 
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Jesstickle said:
I want to know why it is not ok to shoot an unwanted horse but it is ok to kill cattle/pigs/chickens to eat. From the animal's side the end result is the same. It died to serve a human purpose. So why is one acceptable and one not?
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Well I don't eat meat because I don't see a difference between horses and dogs and cows, pigs and sheep. But the thing that stopped me eating meat was the guilt I felt every time I saw a lorry packed to the sides with live animals destined for slaughter. The ones on the outside freezing cold in the winter, all of them over heated in the summer. Then to arrive at the abattoir smelling the blood in the air and often being treated inhumanely by some of the workers. I don't see any difference between that and sending a horse for slaughter. Thankfully, most horses are PTS at home and so have a much more humane experience. So actually, I think it is worse sending meat animals to slaughter than shooting a horse at home. I used to love my meat and it took a lot of will power to stop eating it. I especially miss it when eating out, but it's a sacrifice I have to make for my principles.

I am not against eating meat per se, though. I would like to see it made 10 times more expensive, so that people started to appreciate it more and value the animals more (farmers would have more money to enrich their lives). I would also like to see slaughter taking place on the premises or very locally.

But I can understand why people who eat meat still are against killing a horse for convenience. Horses and dogs have become our close companions and it is only human nature to therefore view them differently to animals we haven't had close to our lives.
 
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amandap said:
Of course it's all from a human perspective we are all humans! Farmers have already made their decision about producing and killing animals to eat and those animals have to be happy and healthy. I wonder if they view their dogs the same way?

It isn't the same for many humans nor is it the same for farm animals v most pets who are killed at home. Yes they all end up dead but we humans are the ones making the choices and most of us do see it differently!
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I have worked with farmers for 30 years, and yes they do look at dogs in the same way as we look at horses, in fact they may even have horses!
They usually need working dogs to work.
and often they are used for that alone.
but good dogs are special dogs and are often treated as pets.
Old dogs are not often "put down" but it happens.
 
amandap said:
Of course it's all from a human perspective we are all humans! Farmers have already made their decision about producing and killing animals to eat and those animals have to be happy and healthy. I wonder if they view their dogs the same way?

It isn't the same for many humans nor is it the same for farm animals v most pets who are killed at home. Yes they all end up dead but we humans are the ones making the choices and most of us do see it differently!
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So does that mean it is ok for some people on this thread to be really quite rude to the OP as they have made a different choice? If we accept that from the animal's perspective it is all the same?

That is really what I am driving at I suppose.
 
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