XC safety - an illusion, or do you believe it?

[kerilli]

This might ramble on a bit, it's a few ideas a friend and I have been kicking around for a while.
Although the powers-that-be are adamant that eventing is getting safer (number of falls per number of riders going xc etc), overall it doesn't actually look like it to me and friend... in the '60s, '70s and most of the '80s, there were no fatal (to rider) falls.
For all the huge changes in course design over the years, 'safety fences', more technical training, better crash skulls, better back protectors (compared to none!) etc etc, there are still quite a few terrible falls. BE has put safety very much on the map, but we think they're chasing a chimaera.
The thing is, if you are riding a horse (which has its own opinions about things) over fences, you will occasionally have a misunderstanding, or the rider will make an error, or the horse will make an error. This is absolutely unavoidable. Over fixed fences, the outcome can negligible, or minor, or bad.
If you ask course builders, event organisers, etc, they will tell you that the standard of riding xc has gone down a lot, and that they see some truly terrible riding.
It used to be that you came out at Novice and if you and horse weren't up to it, you decided to be a sjer, or stick to dressage! Now that there are lower and lower levels, it all looks much easier and safer over smaller fences... but i wonder if it is, really?
Do you think Training, Intro and PN riders realise the risks, or does the emphasis on 'safety' make them believe it's safe? This isn't supposed to be scaremongering, I just wonder if it has skewed the way we look at the risks.
Would be interested to hear opinions, really... thankyou.

 

[Rafferoo]

I am by no means an expert but have followed the safety debate with interest. I think there are lots of variables involved but can't help but think that course design and the increase in technicality is a factor in the types of falls that occur. I think it can encourage backward riding and also throws so much more at the horses in a small space of time that perhaps they can't always process it in time. Having said that I also read somewhere that accidents are less likely to happen at combinations so maybe that throws the technicality arguement out of the water!

I think that you see some scary riding at lower levels and I think that people sometimes move up a level before they are really ready e.g. girl on yard I used to be on did a couple of pre-novices was clearly at her limit but wanted to go novice and her trainer was not brave enough to tell her she wasn't up to it. She ended up being carted off to hospital and luckily was OK but it really was too much too soon. I think a scheme where people are monitored before moving up to novice/int would be a good idea but I am sure it would be quite difficult to implement in reality.

On the other hand it seems to me that a number of the fatalities over here in last decade or so were people who did know what they were doing and were experienced riders. Its at this point that I think course design again as this is the thing that has changed more than anything since the days when fatalities were practically unheard of.

 

[Saratoga]

To be totally honest, i can't believe that some people do realise the risks, or they wouldn't ride in the fashion that they do! They don't seem to realise that a nasty fall can result in a nasty injury or fatalities no matter what level you are competing at, and all competitors should be more than competent at their level before competing.

Is it the responsibility of BE or event organisers though to pull people up about their riding and putting themselves in danger, or does it rely solely on the riders shoulders to be realistic in their abilities?

I don't think it is just low level though, i see people competing at Novice/Intermediate who IMHO should not be competing at that level at all, being a danger to themselves and their horses with their level of riding and balance, but are totally oblivious to that fact!

 

[Baydale]

I was thinking the same thing over the weekend, partly prompted by the posts of old Badminton photos, and also watching some old vid of Bramham with Peta Beckett on, may she rest in peace.

Are there a lot more people eventing - and riding generally - than 10 or 15 years ago? It seems to me there are but I'd be interested to know if that is actually the case, therefore how the figures hold up when you look at the number of fatalities as a percentage of those competing.

Bit of a random thought, but I wonder whether society has changed so much that it is encouraging people to think anything is possible or achievable, ie. the "want it/have it now" mentality, so we've lost our self-control or self-awareness of how capable we actually are. I'm not explaining it very well, but if I see another 16yo's website telling me that he/she is aiming for the 2012 Olympic team yet they've not completed a novice yet, I'll probably scream.....I think you get my drift.

 

[TableDancer]

I agree with Mark Phillips's view that there are too many people out there who, because they are getting results at a certain level, in terms of going clear within the time, mistakenly believe they are doing it well/safely whereas most people watching them would be covering their eyes in horror...

Trouble is, I don't know what you do about this

 

[jellybaby]

When I first started out (I'm not that old!) there was PN, but they were quite 'stiff'. I started at JRN level, and was confirmed to go straight in at novice by the Regional co-ordinator as she had spoken to the DC of the PC and the Chief Instructor who confirmed that both horse and I were capable. One girl who was in the same PC was not given the go ahead, and was asked to prove herself at PN before they would let her onto the JRN scheme - which she did.

BE used to be a real 'milestone' achievement, if you were BHS Horse Trials Group and affiliated, that was something to be really looked up to - nowadays, it would seem that the 'achievement' has gone out of it - I'd say that most people could boot a 3 legged donkey round an intro...where is the achievement?

Probably going to get shot down in flames now!

JB xx

 

[Saratoga]

TableDancer - totally agree (what i was trying to say!) but i too have no idea how realistically it could be sorted?

It almost needs some sort of certificate or qualification on riding ability and safety as well as results at a certain level, before moving up to the next one?

 

[Eventerlad15]

Well I don't know, but one thing I do wonder is....has any one noticed that recently at the 4*'s the dressage leaders always seem to have a problem, where as the less experienced mansge to get round safe? Is this due to trusting the horse too much(WFP at Badders with Tamarillo), and the less experienced really try to be safe.

Thoughts?

 

[Bubblegum]

Since we have started doing BE I have noticed that there is a certain amount of 'kudos' in taking your horse up through the levels. It makes me very uncomfortable.
I hadn't really noticed this so much at PC or RC events previously... classes were full of people happy to jump the same height over & over again.
I know this does happen in BE as well, but these people are frowned upon much more, and accused of being pot hunters... maybe because of the cost of eventing. I really think that BE should make it easier for people to be happy to stay at their comfort zone level.. maybe by offering more open classes.
I cannot comment on higher levels as I have no personal experience... but you only have to have watched the old Badminton footage that was posted on here to see how drastically the courses have changed, and surely this must have had significant impact.

 

[Weezy]

Agreed, pretty much any horse or pony is capable of jumping round an intro, but a lot of the riders are not

 

[kerilli]

Totally agree with that one. We are encouraged to think "anyone can have anything if they try and want it hard enough." The fact that talentless idiots get on t.v. and make absolute fortunes doesn't help! It is so untruthful though... 99% of people do not get to attain their wildest dreams.
I met a woman years ago while we were scoring at Weston Park. She didn't have the excuse of being 16, she was in her 30s, and had a trainer who had attained Novice level and was very ambitious for her. She was doing her first ever Novice there the next day (not exactly my idea of a good 1st time novice!), and told me the whole 2 year plan, which went something like "i did a few PN last year and he was great, he's a xc machine, so novice then Intermediate this year, finish with a 2*, then Int, 2*, and Advanced next year, finishing with Blenheim, and then Badminton the year after"... while i choked over my coffee, and held my tongue.

She got eliminated on the xc at Nov and didn't do anything much after that...!
Sorry, that's not schadenfreude, but I don't ever remember airily thinking i'd just walzt up the grades to Badders and beyond! And the next time someone calls a PN horse a "xc machine" in my hearing i might scream too!
Yes, there are a LOT more people eventing now, iirc there are about 11,000 riders now reg'd with BE, and back in the 80s it was 4,000 ish, but could be totally wrong with that one.

 

[moogrrr]

I help at the BE events through out the season and at one last year there was a guy who fell off in the dressage warm up (having been warming up his horse for 2 hours plus) and then the horse exploded several times in the dressage. The officals were faffing around, debating what to do, but didn't actually do anything so he went XC and fell off i think. this was a 1 star competition, should they have really been allowed to continue?

In my (humble) opinion officals should be allowed to say something about poor/dangerous riding and not fear what riders will say back. But then in return riders need to take responsibility and take on any critisim that is sent in their direction. There really ought to be tighter restrictions about going up a level to ensure that only people with the skills and ability can make the move.

i wouldn't dream of even attempting a intro on Tia at the moment - we don't have the experience as a combination or the brakes to try and do a 3 ft XC course, however much i would love to 'give it a go.' But how many people out there will just 'give it a go'? Risking their and their horses lives?

 

[TableDancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Since we have started doing BE I have noticed that there is a certain amount of 'kudos' in taking your horse up through the levels. It makes me very uncomfortable.
I hadn't really noticed this so much at PC or RC events previously... classes were full of people happy to jump the same height over & over again.
I know this does happen in BE as well, but these people are frowned upon much more, and accused of being pot hunters... maybe because of the cost of eventing. I really think that BE should make it easier for people to be happy to stay at their comfort zone level.. maybe by offering more open classes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is something in this, BG. People do seem to see each level as a stepping stone to the next, which it isn't necessarily. Even on here you see people planning their season starting at one level aiming to go to the next or even beyond... I don't want to stifle anyone's ambitions and obviously there are people who will progress happily and safely but I think you are right there is too much emphasis on progression. Many people would be better off consolidating at and having fun at a cetain level, and forgetting about the next one up for the moment and possibly for ever

The system doesn't really encourage this, does it, although the Grass Roots Championships and its increasing kudos does help...

 

[flyingfeet]

Well would be worth noting that the number of events has tripled and shear numbers of riders massively increased.

I believe the fences in the 80's were less technical and the average approach speed was faster. Does this mean that rotational falls would have thrown the rider clear due to speed. Whereas todays technical fences ridden in a Sjing canter result in the rider being splatted?

 

[kit279]

I do agree with Baydale here. I think 20 years ago the number of people with the kind of horses to jump round Badminton was much much smaller. You had to have money and access to the right horse and for the most part it was professionals only going round 4* tracks. If you had the kind of horse with that ability, you paid someone like Mark Todd to compete it for you. Now however, eventing has become much more accesible to the amateur/weekend rider and there are far more opportunities to compete and train, plus a whole industry of products and services for horse and rider. The numbers have gone up, but crucially the kind of person entering eventing now is encouraged by Intro/PN height to 'have a go'. That's all well and good but when you have a lot of money, it becomes a great temptation to throw it at the problem and buy a very talented horse, without accepting that you need to be a talented rider to get said horse round the upper levels. Someone told me that Phillip Adkins had trouble going round a 2* course on Parkmore Ed, yet the horse is a winner at 4* with WFP. Clearly, you need to have not just the horse but the experience to ride at that level. I think it may inevitably come down to amateurs having to be licensed for the really big events. There will always be freak accidents but the really tragic ones with the worst outcomes are by and large at the higher levels. Just my humble opinion!

 

[moogrrr]

[ QUOTE ]


BE used to be a real 'milestone' achievement, if you were BHS Horse Trials Group and affiliated, that was something to be really looked up to - nowadays, it would seem that the 'achievement' has gone out of it - I'd say that most people could boot a 3 legged donkey round an intro...where is the achievement?



[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with that - to me riding in an affliated competition is a pretty big deal - you ought to be dam good to get that far. but it seems that everyone will do intro and aim to get up the grades, it doesn't seem to be such a 'special think' to get affliated anymore! If that makes any sense!

 

[susie2193]

When my duaghter started out at 15 she had to do 2 intros clear, 3 PN and a JRN before she was allowed to go Novice. On the other hand I could have gone out and done a novice never having jumped a XC round in my life. - where is the safety in that ?, (although I probably wouldn't have got round the SJ)

I have always maintained that no matter what your age you should have to progress up the levels, we see some frightening riding, especially at Novice level.

I understand why accreditation was abbolished for U16, but don't see whey everyone shouldn't have to follow the same route.

 

[Rafferoo]

I think you have got a point baydale re: changes in society and attitudes. Whilst I was lucky enough to have a "tell it like it is" instructor as a young un who would never have let me think I was better than I was or do anything I wasn't ready for I also think there were more people around who would tell a rider in no uncertain terms if they weren't up to the job.

I think that the "anything is possible" mentality is much more the norm today and that unfortunately that means that people are often encouraged by those around them when perhaps they should not be!

 

[TableDancer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 20 years ago the number of people with the kind of horses to jump round Badminton was much much smaller. You had to have money and access to the right horse and for the most part it was professionals only going round 4* tracks. If you had the kind of horse with that ability, you paid someone like Mark Todd to compete it for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid I disagree with this - although I don't disagree with Baydale's original comment, I wouldn't dare given that she's such a sensitive soul and all

Actually, you had a fair number of gifted amateurs going through the grades then and if you analysed the field at 4* level in the 80s compared to now there was a far higher percentage of amateurs in those days. Very few people paid people like MT to ride their horses, the Event Horse Ownership industry was in its infancy. Also, the qualification process was far easier so the potential for c*ck-ups was far greater really so the question is why didn't they happen? Don't get me wrong, I'm not against rider-licensing at the higher levels, I can think of one or two riders who I think would be unlikely to make the grade and the sport would be safer as a result

 

[jellybaby]

The 'Have it all' mentality could also apply to those people who have devocoux 5 point breatsplates, and yet whom are still to jump clear at their local EC's mini, midi maxi league!

I was at some RC dressage last year where I saw all sorts of wonderful dressage saddles, pristine white dressage squares, fluffy O/R boots (you get the idea) yet none of the bloody horses could canter a circle......!

It makes me laugh anyway!

JB xx

 

[kit279]

I stand corrected!

However, I do think the temptation if you have a good horse, is to 'produce it yourself though the grades' even if you are not that experienced yourself. FWIW if my grey horse gets to Novice this year and shows any sign of going Intermediate, my OH is going to hand over the ride to someone who has actually done Intermediate. We accept that it's safer for the horse and for him, to do so earlier rather than later!

 

[rara007]

I know sod all about eventing- But the intro classes certainly make it open to all- I would love a go on my unathletic not perfect confo. 13.3 cob- The time would be a struggle but the jumping would be well within his abilty- And for his size he has almost no scope

I have noticed most of the accidents happen on 'proper' event horses- ones bred for the job and have done it all their life- Do you think that is the case? Could it be a case of the horses being over fit for the job, and not having enough time to settle into their stride due to the lack of roads and tracks? The course is only about ?2Km? which for almost any non shire isn't really demanding- Just doing normal hacking work should be more than adequate ( I guess?) yet you read about people working their horses hard, with lots of work on gallops etc.??

As I say I know nothing

Just things I have noticed.

 

[AnShanDan]

[ QUOTE ]
When I first started out (I'm not that old!) there was PN, but they were quite 'stiff'. I started at JRN level, and was confirmed to go straight in at novice by the Regional co-ordinator as she had spoken to the DC of the PC and the Chief Instructor who confirmed that both horse and I were capable. One girl who was in the same PC was not given the go ahead, and was asked to prove herself at PN before they would let her onto the JRN scheme - which she did.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this may be a big factor: the riders of 10-20 plus years ago had almost all come up through the pony club and had been riding all their lives. So many of today’s riders have not got this grounding and nothing can compensate for it.
I watch a LOT of pony club kids jumping on a very regular basis, and many of those who make a good job have been riding from a relatively young age, not necessarily jumping big fences, but just doing things with their ponies. They have a sort of inbuilt confidence and understanding of horses.
I am also appalled by some of the riding at BE events, and frequently am amazed by the generosity of the horses that have to literally carry people round.
Kids used to have to get accreditation before competing, why not re-introduce that for everyone? It would only have to be done once after all.

 

[Baydale]

[ QUOTE ]
I help at the BE events through out the season and at one last year there was a guy who fell off in the dressage warm up (having been warming up his horse for 2 hours plus) and then the horse exploded several times in the dressage. The officals were faffing around, debating what to do, but didn't actually do anything so he went XC and fell off i think. this was a 1 star competition, should they have really been allowed to continue?


[/ QUOTE ]

OMG I've done that.

Little b***er used to play chicken with other horses coming towards him, so dumped me, did two laps of the lorry park, I got back on him and had to go straight into the arena.

 

[Gamebird]

I think the thing that stands out for me from watching the old 4* footage (early eighties era) is just how BAD some of the riding is. There are people approaching fences FAR too fast (or FAR too slowly), missing really badly, lower leg position is atrocious and rein contact is at best minimal.

Yet when things go wrong the worst that seems to happen is that the horse stops or the rider tips off over the shoulder and lands on their feet. I'm really not sure why they all seemed to get away with it so lightly. I would like to bring in the argument that that horses are thinking for themselves, aren't being over-ridden, haven't spent hours practicing changes and half-pass, nor are they being told at every fence exactly where to take off. The truth is I really don't know

.

I do feel that there is a pressure to progress - I have always felt that I should have my 5yos at PN, 6yos at Nov and 7yos at CCI*/Int/CIC**. Yet given that none of the horses I have owned have been remotely likely to go Advanced is there any point in having a 7yo Intermediate horse that is going to spend the next 10 years of its career being an Intermediate horse - couldn't it have taken an extra year or two to get to that level instead???

Regarding TD I agree with the point about people thinking they are doing OK if they're getting the results. At Hutton this year I saw the most godawful SJing round. The girl never had the horse balanced or even on the right leg. She fired it into fences from a mile off them hooked at the last minute, bringing it almost to a standstill before the poor horse managed to clamber over the fence. Inevitably she jumped clear and came out with a huge grin saying 'he can go PN next time'. Who's going to tell her to stay at Intro until she can ride a proper, balanced SJ round?

. And what will happen when she meets an open oxer on a PN XC course that the poor horse can't climb over?

.

 

[kerilli]

I agree with TD on that, there were lots of 'amateurs' competing at top level back then, and the qualifications weren't as rigorous. I don't think Badders was smaller then, either... not as technical, but definitely huge.
I'm guilty of the "aim to go up the levels" thing at BE, but prob because I've done it before. Until I had, I didn't expect it! I am also a total realist (and over-analyse everything, can you tell?!) so I have never pushed a horse beyond its ability, and pray I never will.
Re "tell it like it is" trainers - I think nowadays there are so many trainers around that the competition is huge, so they want to hang on to their pupils, by flattery if necessary. How many riders would go back to a trainer who was harsh/truthful, more than they expected or wanted to hear?!

 

[rara007]

People who know- Has their been a trend in what horses people use?

Was it a case that previously you did well on you allrounder at RC, so did some BE novices once you were sure you could not embarass yourself, whilst now people sell their genuine RC horses in exchange for an expensive eventer who has done well under a professional, and expect it to be able to take them round any course even through the horse is used to a very experienced rider and now has a numpty.?
Did people tend to bring their own youngsters on and keep them for life more atall? It seems lots ofvpeople buy a 7/8YO that has done a bit, keep it for a season or 2 and sell- Whereas in driving most people bring on their own and compete them for life- bringing on your own seems to give you a better understanding of the horse...

re. Pressure to progress, could it also be as the attitude seems to be that it is very hard to get placed, so very little emphasis on that more about if you got round, where as before you felt you had to 'prove' yourself with placings etc at the lower levels before moving up?

Feel free to tell me to shut up and butt out.

 

[kerilli]

Gamebird, if you are talking about the Badminton 82 footage, do you really think it is bad riding? seriously? the speed it shows can be misleading, tapes sometimes seem to show things at weird speeds, not as they actually were. i don't see many misses, i see a lot of very good forward riding to fences. lower leg locked forward was an old hunting thing that only some eventers used to do, show-jumpers never did, and a lot of eventers were sjers too. their upper bodies are more forward than is fashionable nowadays, definitely, and lower legs less locked. but i watch it and see some seriously great riding.
maybe they got away with it because the horses hadn't been trained to go No Matter What, and used their brains more, had that legendary extra leg etc. M E-S said at the Regional meeting the other day that statistically most horse falls happen at 4* level, because those horses will not stop or run out even if they are very wrong.

 

[Baydale]

Gamebird - I'm interested to know who or what makes you feel that there is pressure to progress?

More and more I'm thinking that licensing is going to help, as would BE staff marching round events and b***ocking people who ride dangerously. How else is the message going to get across that it is a risk sport and you could die?

I think there are too many people competing who are getting round on a wing and a prayer, with very little "feel" for whether it was a fluent, balanced round with a confident horse underneath them. Ideally I want to finish my cross country round having had zero heart-in-mouth moments; admittedly sh*t happens occasionally but it shouldn't be that it happens every time. If it did, I'd be firmly reviewing mine and my horse's ability, not thinking "great, I went clear, I'll go up a level next time". I have greater respect for myself and my horse than that.

 

[Gamebird]

I was thinking of some videos I have at home, but I forgot about the speed thingy - I think older things do play a bit faster.

I think it's maybe the upper body position that's throwing me though some of the lower legs are ditinctly dodgy. I like the hunting style people best, and to be honest the horses look pretty much like hunters too! I find it hard to remember that these horses have done 15 or so miles by the time they get to the last XC fence!