XC safety - an illusion, or do you believe it?

[Kate260881]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe I'm wrong then, by hairy I don't mean we are almost falling over or parting company.... I mean he might hit one quite hard, and maybe take a long stride to another...I thought this was the whole idea of xc for it to be less polished than sj, and more like hunting where you take the fences as they come you can't get it right everytime.....

I would be interested to know what people think of this, as it has always been my belief that xc is ridden this way.....confused now!

[/ QUOTE ]

But sure part of the point of this conversation is that XC used to be jumped this way, more akin to hunting but now because of the technicality its more like showjumping so hairy moments have more chance of turning into splatty moments.

 

[kick_On]

i'm shocked reading this - totally agree SC

Having 'hairy fences' OMG i don't want THIS ALL........ i don't mind moments of my horse pulling me into fence or taking stride out BUT never whacking anything or stubbling on landing... This has happen and it makes me more keen to riding horse into fences and sending condifence down rein. If it happen more that a couple times over a few events i would think very much about moving DOWN in height, whacking solid stuff at speed causes rotational falls!!!!

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe I'm wrong then, by hairy I don't mean we are almost falling over or parting company.... I mean he might hit one quite hard, and maybe take a long stride to another...I thought this was the whole idea of xc for it to be less polished than sj, and more like hunting where you take the fences as they come you can't get it right everytime.....

I would be interested to know what people think of this, as it has always been my belief that xc is ridden this way.....confused now!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, that way I see it is this - if my horse consistently hit a fence hard every time we went XC (or even every other time) I would a)drop him down a level and b)do some serious technique training, I would not look at it as normal - if my horse hits one fence hard I do not expect him to do it again repeatedly - if he does he is too stupid for XC and he won't go again until I have fixed the problem! I don't mind him misjudging something new, but when he sees that problem again he damn well better not hit it again, and if he does, well I don't want to be sat on something over fixed fences which does not learn from its mistakes.

In terms of long or short stride, putting one in or taking one out, whatever, for sure it happens, but never in a way to make me feel repeatedly 'that was hairy' because I can usually see it is going to happen and get out of his way - if he takes out a stride I can very easily slip the reins and stay balanced without feeling it is a hairy moment.

It's not about 'polish' in terms of being on an accurate SJ-esque stride to every fence, but the course should flow, and if I felt that every time I went out there were two or three moments where it didn't, then I would be off to do some training and probably dropping back down a level rather than plugging away at something which was clearly not going well. I guess I am saying I know well in advance if the stride is going to be long or short, that kind of thing rarely results in a hairy moment for me.

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I guess I should have mentioned that this is at Intro on a young horse so I take the odd long stride and wrap of a fence as all part of the learned curve at this stage.

I think this is acceptable on a green animal until he finds his feet

 

[TableDancer]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe I'm wrong then, by hairy I don't mean we are almost falling over or parting company.... I mean he might hit one quite hard, and maybe take a long stride to another...I thought this was the whole idea of xc for it to be less polished than sj, and more like hunting where you take the fences as they come you can't get it right everytime.....

I would be interested to know what people think of this, as it has always been my belief that xc is ridden this way.....confused now!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you are seeking opinions

No, I don't expect to have those sorts of moments every round - they happen occasionally to all of us but I HATE hitting fences hard, or finding those spots where you go "Sweet J*s*s" when they take off... My aim is for most of my rounds to be solid, there will be better fences and less good ones, say style marks 6/10 or better, but no really hairy ones ie below 4/10. Before I think of moving up a grade I would expect several near-perfect rounds where I would give every fence say 8/10 or above.

 

[SpottedCat]

QR - would just like to add - not aimed at GHE - if someone thinks it is normal to have 2 or 3 hairy moments XC then why wouldn't they think it was ok to move up a level, when those moments could be disastrous? Therein perhaps lies the reason why accidents happen at the higher levels - if people are coming through thinking it's ok to have a couple of hairy jumps per course, and getting away with it consistently at intro and PN, why wouldn't they have a crack at novice and then intermediate, when the same error is likely to have much more serious consequences.

 

[monica987]

I obviously have a doifferent definition of 'hairy'

My rounds did not have any 'haoiry' moments in terms of how we are talking now

I agree with you SC

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]


Well if you are seeking opinions

No, I don't expect to have those sorts of moments every round - they happen occasionally to all of us but I HATE hitting fences hard, or finding those spots where you go "Sweet J*s*s" when they take off... My aim is for most of my rounds to be solid, there will be better fences and less good ones, say style marks 6/10 or better, but no really hairy ones ie below 4/10. Before I think of moving up a grade I would expect several near-perfect rounds where I would give every fence say 8/10 or above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree with this...and I would expect my SJ to be the same too...and I know it is not, hence although horse has schooled the best part of two intermediate XC tracks, he won't be going intermediate (or even IN) until my SJ is the same! By near perfect on the SJ I don't necessarily mean clear though - he is not quite as pingy as pingy pony so one or at most two down I will live with, as long as we've met every fence on a comfortable, solid stride.

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I think maybe using the word "hairy" was a bad move I think I have given the impression that I'm legs forward, seat back hunting style galloping into the fences, scrabbling over them and ploughing through others ahahhaha

Tally ho!

 

[kick_On]

but pssssssssssss......... hunting seat is this best defense seat out, not stylish, but effective

 

[Baydale]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh god I can't think of anything worse!

"Jump judges should be encouraged to report dangerous riding and have a '3 strikes and you're out' scheme"

on the xc you are expected to have one or two hairy fences , maybe not jumped in great style, if every jump judge had the power to issue a strike then i would only need do 3 events max and i would be elimintaed!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Who expects that?

I must be doing it wrong then if I pat myself on the back for doing a fluent round.

Probably not something I should be flippant about tbh in a post of this gravity. This assumes that fence judges are educated enough to know what they're looking for, which I doubt would always be the case - no disrespect to fence judges, and don't jump on me as I know they're all volunteers, but that shouldn't be their job.

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer the idea of acredited trainers recommending people, but at the end of the day it has to be the rider's decision to enter, and we must all learn by our own mistakes. If you have overfaced yourself and your horse you should have the humility and sense to go back a stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great, but that assumes that you realise you've overfaced your horse and not just had a "sticky" round, or that he's stopped because his feet hurt, or his saddle doesn't fit..... Learning by your mistakes is fine, but there are little errors and then there are whopping great big c**k-ups. Everybody needs someone to point out what you yourself may have missed. And those that don't have anyone knowledgeable should get their performances videoed, watch a top rider do something similar, then play spot the difference.

 

[Chloe_GHE]

maybe the points system should work differently then, rather than just getting points which don't take into account the total performace, maybe something like a dressage score of a certain mark to be achieved at least 3 times in a season, a certain number of clear rounds or double clears achieved before you are permitted to enter the next level.

This would take into account the total competance level of horse and rider....it's an idea

 

[Baydale]

Fundamentals of cross country riding please folks?

Balance
Rhythm
The right pace for the right fence (see "balance" and "rhythm" above)

What else?

I'd hate to think that there was no middle ground between showjumping around a cross country course (and that's kinda insulting to showjumpers, especially when you watch vids of the likes of sj_mummy, jumping fluent rounds) and hooning round hunting style, scrabbling over fences (again, insulting to a lot of people who hunt with style and secure positions on horses who are balanced and bold in all conditions).

 

[Gamebird]

[ QUOTE ]
Fundamentals of cross country riding please folks?

Balance
Rhythm
The right pace for the right fence (see "balance" and "rhythm" above)

What else?



[/ QUOTE ]

Straightness

 

[TableDancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Fundamentals of cross country riding please folks?

Balance
Rhythm
The right pace for the right fence (see "balance" and "rhythm" above)

What else?



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say Engine, probably equates to your third point but still worth repeating because it is a combination of Revs and Pace isn't it ie slow for coffin is no good if no revs

And Line - the right one

Oh look, Engine, Line, Balance and Ow if you get it wrong = ELBOW now where have I heard that before?

 

[Chloe_GHE]

Crikey this really is a can of worms well and truely open!

Apologies to all who sj, hunt, and event I didnt mean to insult your style in any previous posts, I was just trying to illustrate a point.

I feel a little under fire now tbh probs best if I just go away and shut up

 

[TableDancer]

Ah, don't take it like that GHE, we can't all agree and your input has been very valuable for the debate - look how many people have viewed this thread and contributed. And don't worry about Baydale, she 's just grumpy cos she hasn't had her first drink of the day yet

 

[kick_On]

Boldness within control
Using the natural environment to give the horse best view/line of fence

 

[SpottedCat]

Don't take it personally GHE - this kind of thread has lots of good points in it from every side. I guess I just could not live with myself if you'd posted that, I'd thought 'crikey that attitude scares me a bit' but said nothing then you/someone else (as I would put money on you not being alone in thinking that) had an accident as a result which perhaps saying something could have prevented - it's not a personal attack, it's because we care!

 

[MissDeMeena]

[ QUOTE ]

The thing is, if you are riding a horse (which has its own opinions about things)

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time this debate comes up, i say the same thing over and over again, but no one listens..
I always refer to the Jim Wofford article, which everyone seems to take something different from, but not the main point..
It's the dressage that's killing XC riding.. I've highlighted your sentence above, simply because i don't think horses do have their own opinions any more!! They are so well schooled to the riders aids, that it's all they think about..

Yes you see dreadfull riding at the lower levels, but you don't see the fatalities at that level, they are 'usually' all Adv. riders..

I don't think this issue can ever be solved, as by the very simple competitive nature of people, they will always want to improve their dressage..
There will obviously always be exceptions to this rule, with the likes of Mary King and WFP, who have got both down to a fine art..

 

[Chloe_GHE]

*snif snif* oh ok... I guess I just took it personally coz I am down in the dumps due to not being able to ride for a week because of the bl**dy SNOW!!!!

On reflection it was a bit of a gung ho attitude, but I promise I am a safe and capable rider, and won't be filling out my entry for Badminton any time soon!!!!

 

[MissDeMeena]

Just thought i'd add.. i've not read any of the replies to this thread yet.. gotta go and ride (in the rain, again) so will do so later, with a hot chocolate..

 

[Orangehorse]

There is all this hoo-ha about bad riding, but the people who have had fatal accidents have all been "experienced riders" mostly competeting at the top events and in most cases virtually professionals.

There was the odd one or two at lower levels, even in the 1980s there was the occasional one. I can remember one rider that was killed locally, basically it was a post and rail fence jumped downhill, I guess the horse just got too fast and clipped it.

I can remember going to a cross country clinic back in the 1970s, and the trainer quoted Frank Weldon as the art of cross country riding was rather inelegantly "one in the gob and one in the ribs." That stayed with me as a reminder when galloping across country.

I was a spectator at Weston Park in autumn 2007 and I was amazed that the vast majority of horses seemed to clatter over the fences, and in one case left a bloody trail that the fence judge went and wiped off. It was nice to see the occasional one that jumped the fences clompletly clean.

 

[Nats_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The thing is, if you are riding a horse (which has its own opinions about things)

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time this debate comes up, i say the same thing over and over again, but no one listens..
I always refer to the Jim Wofford article, which everyone seems to take something different from, but not the main point..
It's the dressage that's killing XC riding.. I've highlighted your sentence above, simply because i don't think horses do have their own opinions any more!! They are so well schooled to the riders aids, that it's all they think about..

Yes you see dreadfull riding at the lower levels, but you don't see the fatalities at that level, they are 'usually' all Adv. riders..

I don't think this issue can ever be solved, as by the very simple competitive nature of people, they will always want to improve their dressage..
There will obviously always be exceptions to this rule, with the likes of Mary King and WFP, who have got both down to a fine art..

[/ QUOTE ]

Been riding this thread with interest but haven't commented as I am not an event rider and have no plans to be.

However, MDS, I have heard these very words out of Lucinda Green's mouth on a training clinic I went to. She said the standard of dressage required at the higher levels is ruining the ability and safety of the horses going XC. The horses need to be so in tune and responsive to the rider (to the point of waiting for every command) at the dressage stage that the majority can not then take control and have their own "opinions" during the XC phase. She said this is why the number of accidents are creeping up as horses are now becoming no longer capable of making their own decisions and getting themselves out of trouble

 

[wizzi901]

QR

I really feel it is a bit too easy to enter the eventing world at a lower height these days for some maybe (hence i dont event myself too other than unaff) who are not as capable as they may be.

Horses are also trained differently, IMHO i feel that a lot of horses dont go the old route of hunting and thinking for themselves, riders are too controlling thinking they know best.

Most horses could get round a course easily but their are a lot of amateurs out there that think they are better than they are. Sometimes being very scary to watch.

The best grounding for any horse is to get it to think for itself, at least if can get you out of trouble. Fences start off too low these days, as someone above pointed out, in the old days if you didnt cut it at a decent height you were out. Leaving the big stuff to the people that had that edge....

 

[GermanyJo]

having started competing a little in Germany at the back end of last year, I believe that are definately some ideas which the UK authorities should start to take on board.
If you want to compete here at anything more than intro, Prelim or BN level (I think they are the best comparisons) you need to have completed and passed tests - you need a Bronze to be able to compete up to PN/Discovery/Novice.. and even with the bronze there are some of these classes you are excluded from - I have my BHSAI and the German FN have only provided me with allowance up to the Bronze level - when I would like to compete to a higher standard, then I need to do the Silver. In dressage for example, you would not be able to compete in a double bridle without having first of all passed your Silver riding test.
I get the feeling that there is an element of money grabbing in the German system and it is extremely regimented... however, as I mentioned earlier... I think the UK should perhaps take some of these ideas on board, so that people have a proper grounding , practical AND theoretical , before they can move up a level.

 

[Gamebird]

OK so we're all agreed that we all know our limits, would withdraw if we felt the course didn't suit our abilities or the horse didn't feel up to it, none of us are the dangerous people who gallop flat out at fences, miss and ride badly and if we don't feel that our horse is coping we've all got the perspicacity (Tarrsteps

) to realise and drop it (or us!) back a level

.

BUT what do you (we/I) do to guard against the rider who goes clear and thinks they're doing really well but is in fact borderline dangerous. The ones who DON'T realise it's going wrong. Who gets to burst their bubble? Obviously their mum/dad/trainer/best friend/husband/great-aunt Nellie can't have done or they wouldn't be all there congratulating the rider on another clear round. But someone has to say something at some point, surely

.

 

[LEC]

All the horses whose dressage is exceptional are actually all good xc horses - Ben Along Time, Headley brittannia, Tamarillo, Primmores Pride, Even Ringwood Cockatoo is a good xc horse as was Moonfleet when in his prime and discounting last season. These are just a few from the top of my head.

Ginny Leng's horse were as well trained as any on the flat and all excellent xc horses in the past. I just find it quite a convenient excuse that the dressage has got better. In fact technically eventing dressage has got easier as when eventing first started horses needed to be able to do some pretty difficult stuff in the dressage arena.

Statistically there are more people at 4* than ever before. It is no coincidence than Badminton is balloting more. This would never have happened in the past and there was no stringent qualifying criteria.

 

[Orangehorse]

I think in France you also have to pass a test before you can take part in competitions - but would the Brits want to go down this route?


"one in the gob and one in the ribs." I think that was "two in the ribs."!!

I admit that I wasn't very good, at novice level, but my horse had done a lot of hunting, and at that height we were OK. Is the problem the height of the fences at the higher levels?
A horse can get itself out of trouble up to a certain height, but after that the rider needs to be more accurate and skillled.

 

[kit279]

I have also noticed that some people consider the actual competing to be 'good training' for a horse. Certainly this is true for more advanced horses, where the more tracks they have completed, the more experienced they are etc. But surely at Intro and Prenovice level, the training needs to be done at home not out competing. I'm lucky that I live quite close to and can afford to go to a very decent BE trainer with a lot of experience. But how many people just do some flatwork at home, go BSJA, take their horses cross country schooling once or twice and then enter, without ever having been taught to walk a course, what to look out for, how to judge pace and take-offs etc. At Intro, perhaps that doesn't matter so much but at 1/2* level surely that is so so important?

I also think that we're missing a very important factor here - there are no longer roads and tracks. That means a longer XC course and just from numbers alone, more opportunities to hit a fence badly and have a bad fall. Something for consideration.