XC safety - an illusion, or do you believe it?

[Halfstep]

Non eventer's point of view here, possibly ignorant!

But I think having watched eventing over the years that there is more kamikaze xc riding being demonstrated (and celebrated???) at the elite levels. Perhaps this has something to do with very tight times, and technical courses that don't allow a combination to find a decent rhythm for much of the course. So you get aggressive riding, really pushing for the time. This is fine for those who are really, truly top notch riders with a perfect eye for a stride and extreme stickability. But I wonder if lesser riders see this aggressive riding and (consciously or unconsciously) emulate it.

I donno.

 

[Gamebird]

Baydale - the answer is I'm not sure! It's just a little niggle at the back of my head which I plan to spend most of this season blithely ignoring. I think part of it is the way the age-classes are structured and part of it is something in me that keeps wanting to better myself. Mostly that surfaces as a desire for better marks etc. and a definite desire for 'zero-sh*t' rounds (and we have had one or two of those) but partly it does make me want to progress on paper as well.

The thing I was thinking about earlier was how my husband and I used to laugh when they were doing the X-factor auditions and people used to beg, saying 'you have to put me through, it's my life, I'll work harder than anyone else, it's all I want to do'. The point is that it's a singing competition, 'wanting it' isn't enough, you have to be GOOD at it to go through. Perhaps we should all go up in front of Simon Cowell et al before we're allowed to progress to the next level? If we're not as good as we think we are (and some of the really awful people have been told day-in, day-out by their friends/family/teachers that they're talented singers) then we should be bluntly told and not be allowed through to the next round

.

 

[Baydale]

Good point Halfstep, but I wouldn't agree that it's being celebrated. Peta Beckett and Polly Phillips were both successful and experienced riders that rode fast: tragically both of them used up all of their nine lives.

I do think that it has a lot to do with the technicality of the courses ie. more technical fences that involve slowing down, therefore riders are playing catch-up and riding faster over the more straightforward fences. However, the top riders will still make it look relatively smooth and effortless. Every fence must be treated with respect and even the best can be caught out, I'm thinking Mary King at the angled logs at Badders.

 

[cheekycharley]

I havent read many of the comments - im supposed to be doing uni work!

But i think quite a lot of the time people can be too keen to move up the levels a bit quick. I

I think you should really stay at a level until you are well established and i think its better to be over ready. This is the reason i think i am still at pn level keeping trying to get up to novice!

My personal experience - I tried a novice before I was ready, It was a bad idea and i would not try it again in the same circumstances! I had not realised how much fitter the horse needed to be and I had done 2 open PC ODE area events by then and 1 SJ. I had also not realised how much of a difference there is in the showjumping.

People should compete at a level where they can still enjoy it

 

[Baydale]

I think the older/wiser ones amongst us (tongue firmly in cheek there

) realise that, whilst some horses will do it at the "right" age, others will tell you when it's the right time. It's too easy to want to emulate the professionals and how they do it, but is that really fair on your horses if you only have a tenth of their talent/ability/experience? It doesn't always work out for the pros either, and the number of horses that fall by the wayside is considerable. I'd love to have an Over to You - not some flash in the pan that crashed and burned at the age of 10.

You're so right about us needing a Simon Cowell, and I think Lucinda Green would be the best person for the job.

 

[Gamebird]

Maybe we're a little bit to blame on here too - it's easy to think that everyone is doing fabulously, that none of us could ever be one of those riders that we all agree are riding dangerously and shouldn't go up a level. Perhaps we look at people and think 'they're at the same level as me and their horse is the same age as mine and they're going Novice next time so maybe I could too'?

Perhaps we push people a bit when we read competition reports and post replies saying things like 'fab - you'll fly round a Novice next time' when in reality we've never seen them or their horse and have no idea whther it was a beautiful fluent clear or that they scrambled over every fence?

I'm not sure who it was (and not sure I would say if I could remember

) but I read a post a few weeks ago about someone who wanted to move their horse up to Novice at the begining of this season and do half a season Novice before going Intermediate. I was shocked - neither horse nor rider had any experience at either level. I wouldn't contemplate half a season of novice ever being enough. I thought I might have pushed it a bit quick (and I suspect I did) and I'd done a season and a half of novice first. I don't think many pro's manage with just 4 or 5 novice runs (AN excepted

)

Did I have the balls to make my point when all the other replies were so positive - no. Will I regret not saying anything if/when it all goes wrong (and I really hope it doesn't) - yes

 

[chester1234]

*tentatively enters the debate*

Speaking as one of the 16yo's who dream of 2012...[even though she knows it's not going to happen!]
There is a pressure, certainly on us, to progress. We all want to emulate the Pippa King-Pitts, and we don't have the luxury of knowing the way things have changed. We look at the courses and the way people ride, and think "god, was it really like that?" I was watching the Badders video, and it looked like an enormous intermediate / adv. Maybe that's my naivety of not having competed at that level. But the water didn't look half of the question that the "waves" did.
However, one thing I will argue...You would never find a fence 2 nowadays like you did at Kiev...That picture of Lucinda Green [PP as she was] is amazing.

I have to say, byt having 4 / 5 / 6 yo classes, that automatically sets an expectation of what level your horse should be at at a certain age. However [prepares to be shot down in flames] how many one horse riders do you see doing these classes? Most of them want to produce their horse slowly, so they do have an Over To You, not a horse that conks out on them at 10.

I spoke to a lady from Eventing magazine about safety, and we both had some interesting points and views. I was very much of the opinion that accreditation should come back, and there should be accreditation for all. I was dressage writing at Oasby and witnessed a rider pretty much still holding on to the pommel...in a PN. They were bouncing all over the place, and had no balance or co-ordination. They were eliminated SJ, yet were allowed XC?! Surely stewards are aware of things like this? But maybe it's too awkward or uncomfortable for them to turn around and say "actually, no, you can't carry on."

What scared Jo was the fact that somebody could go and buy a horse, and enter it in a novice a week later, neither having competed before - and there is actually nothing to stop them. Maybe that needs reviewing? If you're ready to move up, getting your two intro / 3 pn runs should be easy?

*runs away and hides as probably has it all wrong*

 

[KatB]

Agree strongly with Gamebird, I think alot of the amateurs do want to "keep up" with the Pro's but only take notice of the horses that are doing well, and not the other 60% who do have stops/get eliminated/get dropped down a level and so believe they can do it aswell.
There is also the factor of "because I can", no-one is going to stop people moving up the levels, the only thing that does is their common sense if they have a bad run/bad experience, they should maybe drop down a level, but maybe there is a severe lack of common sense?!
Re. the top levels, the larger margin for human error must be a factor...so the more technical "riders" tracks instead of bold "horse" tracks I think is the massive difference...

 

[tiggs]

QR Do you think that the use of calmers is affecting the horse's ability to think for themselves. I don't remember seeing any 10 years ago and now they must be one of the fastest growing product sectors.

 

[monica987]

I agree with so many points on here - I think it is fair enough people planning ahead, for example I hope to have had a crack at novice by the end of the season. I trust my instructor completely - she is no nonsense and if you are bad, she tells you you are bad

I know for a fact she wouldn't send me off knowing I or the horse are not capable.

I think so many young riders want to get to novice, as do I, but so many do NOT realise the dangers and the difference between intro and novice heights at home over a single fence are completely different to when you get all the other aspects such a technnicality and width thrown in, and the fact that you have to be able to ride your horse correctly... you can't expect a horse to scramble over some oxer when you have caused the problem.

Not sure if any of that made sense to tohers, but I can understand it

 

[dieseldog]

The deaths though aren't happening at Intro level, and how many have died at PN?

I think the arguement that it is all low level riders is flawed. So BE has replaced RC and PC events as riders do expect better built courses. Riders need for safety and safely built courses has increased at the cost of independant unaffliated events.

In the 'old' days did the deaths still happen but no one heard about them as there wasn't the same information infrastructre as there is now. And if someone did die at your independant event who would you report it to?

The levels are there to be climbed though - that's the point. You also have to take into account all the pressure people are put under as they are successful at a level. You only have to read all the posts on here about the evil 'Pot Hunter'. It seems to be typical of the british mentality to not let anyone be successful at a level they are happy at, far better to push them on up and commiserate with them as they fail at event after event.

 

[kerilli]

Hmm. i reckon at least a full season of Nov is essential. the only exception would be a bit of an older horse that already had a LOT of knowledge about jumping (an ex-sjer, say) coupled with a pretty experienced rider who'd done above Nov before, imho.
hopefully at least some riders will listen to how the horse feels underneath them, and amend their plans accordingly if necessary...

 

[BeckyD]

Please feel free to ignore my thoughts as useless ramblings; after all, I have no personal experience of riding XC courses - but I am one of the people who could be very dangerous if let loose BE...

I have spent the last 20+ years spectating at all levels from PN up to 4*. A number of things have struck me as being in a state of change over the years, and I wonder how these aspects will affect the safety of the sport in general.

Firstly, years ago, the fences were big, frightening and dangerous-looking. I used to watch at Novice level, and was truly in awe of the riders there. They had guts and ability to event at that level. Very rarely did people look incapable (though some did, even to my inexperienced eyes). These were not the sort of fences I'd look at and think "oh, I want to jump that". This contrasts with the current state of affairs - the PN fences look easy - even I am tempted to have a go. Few fences are frightening. This is perhaps encouraging people (like me) to "have a go" when we should not. We are not put off by the fences themselves.

Secondly, with the introduction of Intro, PN etc, it is easier to "have a go". Should the less-capable rider have a few good rounds at a lower level, they may be tempted to move up a grade...and be over-confident. This again, would affect people like me. I know that I sit squarely in the "dangerous" bracket - I am inexperienced XC, never hunted, didn't have a multitude of ponies as a kid... But I still want to have a go at Intro, possibly PN one day. If things go well, it's not unreasonable to assume that people will then want to move up the grades...

Eventing just isn't as frightening as it used to be; hence it is more accessible. This is the flip-side to the coin of high revenues and the grass roots riders funding the higher-echelon riders/competitions. I think there needs to be a radical re-think of the way classes are progressing. If BE are willing to tempt the inexperienced/incapable/green riders in, then they need to have some kind of safety system in place to monitor these people very closely. You don't let learner drivers out on the motorway immediately. You don't let learner pilots fly aeroplanes alone immediately. It is a very blurry line between being a learner and being ready for a challenge, and frequently you don't know until you try... But this is NOT an excuse for failing to draw any kind of line at all.

 

[TarrSteps]

I think all the points mentioned are valid - that's part of the problem, not every incident, close call or disaster is going to have the same root.

I've already banged my "jumping technique" drum, so I'll let that lie.

I do agree the culture - in general and in horse sports - is now much more concerned with causing offence and being "fair" to people, coupled with the idea that decisions should be objective and done by committee, rather than someone's opinion being the final word. I think, when the community was smaller, more homogenous, somewhat less organised and generally more concerned with the "big picture", personal results, Olympics etc than with doing business, a few people's - hopefully the ones that knew what they were up to - opinions carried more weight. A stern warning from Lady Russell or similar (even at a very local level) was not only a regular occurrence but it carried real weight. They were also generally quite public, which had the added benefit of making other people think about their sins, too. And more people were exposed to the sort of situation where something like that might happen. Now you're not supposed to scare people or rain on their parades. Sure, someone like Yogi carries a great deal of influence but let's face it, by the time most people come up against someone like that they are either quite far along or already somewhat privileged in their instruction or both.

There is also the factor that part of the "progress" of the sport is to come closer and closer to what horses *can* do, which narrows the risk margins considerably. As in all sports, it's an arms race - techniques get more sophisticated and available, the bar is raised to reflect that, people raise their game and so on. We have more ways of keeping horses sound now, better footing, fancier tack, better safety equipment, more detailed training and instruction available to more people etc etc. We arguably have more, better horses (not better ones, just more of the better ones) but in the end horses are still horses and there is a limit to what even the classiest horse can do. So the closer you are to the margin, the more you educate the horses to expect the tests, the more likely you are to have a horse go when maybe it shouldn't and the potentially more disastrous the consequences.

This might account in part for the idea that the worst problems come at the higher levels but I also think, at that level, when it goes wrong it's more likely to go really wrong. So a fall at Intro is less likely to get you schmucked than a fall at Advanced, simply because the questions are easier and the margins wider - it doesn't make the fall any less important or indicative. As most people have said, almost any horse now can climb over the lower stuff even if it goes quite wrong, perhaps giving both the horse and the rider an less than accurate sense of their own abilities.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Does some of this go back to the trainers or people not listening to them? I am very lucky I have a trainer who tells me in no uncertain terms exactly what I am capable of (and not) and when I may be able to move up. I trust her totally and know she has the knowledge and experience to give the advice. I have heard her advise people that they are not ready for a certain level and whilst some have taken it on board others have not.

It is very difficult but I feel everyone should have an experienced eye on the ground (at least occasionly) who has the knowledge and experience to advise on progress or otherwise of a combination.

 

[LEC]

The other thing people forget about pros is the burn out rates among their horses. How many horses have we seen that are pushed and pushed and finally they get to the next level and throw the towel in. These are then moved on.

I would also like to agree with TD who mentioned about people having high expectations and putting themselves under pressure to do something they are not ready for. Why the rush to go to novice? Why not do well at PN first? There is a massive jump between PN and N and then onto intermediate.

 

[Kate260881]

QR

I think there are so many factors that do/could/might contribute to the increased incidents in Eventing that it is very hard to pinpoint what actually needs to change in order for it to be made safer. I didn't agree with Intro being brought in as when I was competing even at PN level it was considered a real achievement just to be competing at affiliated level. There wasn't this 'just give it a go' mentality (as much) and I think that is a good thing and kept the standards higher.

Another point that was brought up on a thread in Latest News a while ago was somebody (sorry can't remember who) mentioned that a lot of the WB types that we have now tend to have their upper forelegs below the horizontal when jumping so if they hit a fence the somersault as opposed to the old stype eventers who jumped with their upper legs on or above the horizontal so if they hit the fence their legs just folded away more. In addition to this there is also the need for riders to be telling the horses every step of the way EXACTLY where they are putting each foot so if they mess up (as all people do sometimes) the horse hasn't got a clue how to get itself out of trouble. I also think that the increased emphasise on the dressage section has a direct relation to this.

PS: I also think R&T and the steeplechase should come back and see no reason for getting rid of it really. Bring back the old school events

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I have friends with this view point that it's a simple case of just entering the next class up irrespective of whether you can competantly complete it or not.

To me as an amateur I hope to get to Novice within the next 4? 5? years, but I don't see myself time money and horse wise being able to get much further.

In one case I wouldn't even have take my friend's horse round an unaff HT coz it had the most perculiar, unsettling jump ive ever seen (body really low through the chest, and legs higher than the rib cage, with the girth being the lowest point over a fence, and the frony legs wide and wierdly high) but she finnished a 1* last year I was gobsmacked!!! I think he has something like 57 xc time faults.....now really is that safe?...

 

[BuckingHorse]

I think the only way to manage the safety aspect is to have a policy where competitors are given an authority to compete either by an accredited coach or by their DC if in pony club.

Jump judges should be encouraged to report dangerous riding and have a '3 strikes and you're out' scheme whereby a rider is given a formal warning if they have been reported and they should have to be authorised again if they have had 3 warnings. How many times have you cringed watching horses coming into fences too quick only to find out later that the rider went clear and inside the time!!

I would like to see all trainers assessed on their ability to advise the rider of theirs and their horses capabilities as well as on their coaching ability.

I know this is a lot to ask when a lot of helpers at BE are volunteers but I feel it is the only way to improve current standards.

Ramble over!!

 

[KatB]

[ QUOTE ]


In one case I wouldn't even have take my friend's horse round an unaff HT coz it had the most perculiar, unsettling jump ive ever seen (body really low through the chest, and legs higher than the rib cage, with the girth being the lowest point over a fence, and the frony legs wide and wierdly high) but she finnished a 1* last year I was gobsmacked!!! I think he has something like 57 xc time faults.....now really is that safe?...

[/ QUOTE ]

Pleased for someone to disagree with me here, but I actually believe this is a good and correct technique?!!!

 

[monica987]

I agree with Kat, as surely if the horse hits said fence it will jst slide off, causing less harm then if legs were to hit a get stuck???

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
More and more I'm thinking that licensing is going to help, as would BE staff marching round events and b***ocking people who ride dangerously. How else is the message going to get across that it is a risk sport and you could die?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst I am not known to defend BE, I feel I must in this case

- last season round the SW I saw and/or heard of this happening to at least one person at each event I went to. In one particular instance at Stockland Lovell (tough XC track IMO) the course builder had built a tough as nails SJ course - ridable but even pros having several down. It totally floored me although not to the point of compulsory retirement, but had I not had sever novice XC runs under my belt and the luxury of knowing the horse had schooled round most of the intermediate course there at the start of the season, I'd have withdrawn. However I saw one girl miss her horse to every fence, literally every one, and come out with a clear blaming the horse.

Now I don't think it was the horse's fault, but lets assume it was - what in gods name made her think it was a good idea to take a horse which had done a horrendous SJ round out onto a course of big fixed fences at a track which has to be ridden boldly to ride well? Even though she'd gone clear SJ she came out talking about how terrible the round was (and she was right - but for the wrong reasons if that makes sense), so she knew something wasn't right.

I witnessed her later having a blazing row with the technical person from BE - she was adamant she was fine to go XC....he was equally convinced that she was not, and thank god for that!

I think the dressage and SJ judges/stewards need to have the courage of their convictions and tell the secretary when they are worried, and then the technical person from BE (who has a proper job title I suspect!) needs to accept it is part of their job to stand firm against competitors. It happens in the SW and I for one am v v glad.

FWIW I know people were 'flagged' after dressage at Aldon CCI* by the judges as needing to be watched closely XC as they didn't look terribly safe in the dressage - and that was the right thing to do too - but how wrong is it someone can get to CCI* and have their riding flagged as worrying enough to need someone watching them warm up for XC at CCI*??

 

[Chloe_GHE]

Oh god I can't think of anything worse!

"Jump judges should be encouraged to report dangerous riding and have a '3 strikes and you're out' scheme"

on the xc you are expected to have one or two hairy fences, maybe not jumped in great style, if every jump judge had the power to issue a strike then i would only need do 3 events max and i would be elimintaed!!!

I prefer the idea of acredited trainers recommending people, but at the end of the day it has to be the rider's decision to enter, and we must all learn by our own mistakes. If you have overfaced yourself and your horse you should have the humility and sense to go back a stage.

 

[Chloe_GHE]

sorry I don't think i explained it properly, it is definitly not a correct technique and she had been advised against jumping it at all because it was so peculiar. I know the shape you mean but it was miles off that!

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]

on the xc you are expected to have one or two hairy fences, maybe not jumped in great style, if every jump judge had the power to issue a strike then i would only need do 3 events max and i would be elimintaed!!!

stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously hope you do NOT believe this!! I do not expect to go out on the XC and have one or two 'hairy' fences. Yes for sure occasionally between us the horse and I miss a little bit, but I would be very surprised (and take a long hard look at what I was doing and whether I was up to it) if I had a couple of hairy moments on each XC round.

For me this comment sums up why people are having accidents, if you think it is the norm to have a couple of hairy moments on each round

 

[LEC]

Do not forget at Belmont I heard that someone was not allowed to Sj after somebody reported their dressage as being out of control!

 

[monica987]

It also depends on what you call 'hairy'... I did have a hairy moment or two on Sparky, but if he was in any doubt he would stop - also this was at Intro. My difinition of 'hairy' is only just making it over a fence and a very near mishap - and the reason I never moved up or did too many events on S was because of this - I did not want to risk more hairy moments

With Haddy, if I have a hairy moment then we are not moving up ! I am going to do my best NOT to have these hairy moments as SC says... this is why the accidents happen!

 

[Chloe_GHE]

maybe I'm wrong then, by hairy I don't mean we are almost falling over or parting company.... I mean he might hit one quite hard, and maybe take a long stride to another...I thought this was the whole idea of xc for it to be less polished than sj, and more like hunting where you take the fences as they come you can't get it right everytime.....

I would be interested to know what people think of this, as it has always been my belief that xc is ridden this way.....confused now!

 

[alwaysbroke]

Perhaps this should become more common practice? Should everyone be evaluated in the dressage and sj phase?
I have witnessed some pretty hairy riding and horses doing their best, with the sj controller commenting in private that they shouldnt be allowed to go xc, but thats as far as it got.

 

[LEC]

If I was constantly having hairy jumps it to me would signal that the horse is out of its comfort zone and needs to drop a level.
Your work is done at home to make it easy at a comp.