XC safety - an illusion, or do you believe it?

[Gamebird]

[ QUOTE ]
"one in the gob and one in the ribs." I think that was "two in the ribs."!!

[/ QUOTE ]

It was indeed, and is still quoted in Lars Sederholm's book as a good practice on the way to the first fence to get both horse and rider awake and attacking. Best ask TD aboutthe details though

 

[monica987]

In addition to this, perhaps the fact that roads and tracks have been dropped, horses are not being made as fit as before, and therefore struggling slightly with the lengthier tracks?

 

[SpottedCat]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition to this, perhaps the fact that roads and tracks have been dropped, horses are not being made as fit as before, and therefore struggling slightly with the lengthier tracks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a fitness issue - if anything I see people getting their horses too fit for intro and PN.

I also see a lot of people thinking they'll go from say never evented to novice in a season. Well they might I guess, but chances are it won't be good for horse or rider - the pros can do it because they have the experience and the ability to know when to stick at a level for a bit longer as they have ridden many more horses round many more tracks. For the average amateur, rather more consolidation at a level is no bad thing!

I do think the loss of R&T and steeplechase means people have lost the ability to jump a fence well at pace though - because they simply do not get a chance to gallop at forgiving fences like that. So many people say 'that was fast' when really they were pootling round - intro time is far from tight! When you still had to do steeplechase, and went in at novice, you had to learn to judge pace so much more accurately.

 

[monica987]

Ah yes, that is a good point - I think I will just leave this now, I can;t think of anything else to say

 

[TableDancer]

Yeah, I miss the old 'chase, not so much for the horses (although they did love it!) but the riders. I know for a fect I rode better xc after a 'chase - doingthe PN 3DE in 2007 on a baby showed me that. Trouble was, there is no dount it was physically hard on them

 

[SpottedCat]

But was it harder than doing the increased number of events that horses now run in? I am thinking of Olympic horses coming back and doing another top level event which some did this year but which is not something I remember horses doing in my yoof.....(of course could be memory loss due to old age).

 

[Saratoga]

I have come back to this thread from earlier, and can't believe that anyone could think it was safe or normal for a horse to hit fences hard on the xc frequently, whether a baby or not!! I have a a baby horse that did 6 events last yr, and in one of them only did he misjudge a skinny under a tree going from light to dark, and rapped the top of it. He learnt from it, but if it happened more frequently or for no reason then i would be VERY worried, especially at Intro and PN!! I expect the odd misunderstanding now and again, he is a baby, but not to miss strides out here there and everywhere, and hit fences. To me if that was happening then we wouldn't be safe to even be competing!

I agree with the above comment about horses not thinking for themselves, and that is why although i have my work cut out with my youngster as he likes to do it his own way and is quite arrogant and independent, i am glad he is the way he is!

 

[kerilli]

just caught up with this thread. hmm, some interesting comments! agree with Saratoga, there's something wrong if anyone thinks it is okay for a horse to keep hitting fences xc. fwiw, the grey in my siggy did about 80-90 events in her career, from novice to advanced, and i can only remember her hitting 4 fences, in all that time. on most rounds she did not touch a fence, she never banked a fence in her life, and she only once ever came back with a stifle scrape injury from hitting a fence.
and as for 'hairy' moments - umm, if that means "not seeing a perfect stride to a fence", yes, i'll accept one or two of those per round. more at lower level than at higher level, tbh. once at Intermediate or beyond, i'd like to be seeing a good stride (that we both agree on!) to every fence. but if it means that as you take off you think "oh ****" then i'll only accept one or two of those very occasionally... or have a major re-think of bitting, training, level, etc etc.
personally i was very glad to see the back of phases A to C, because i think it contributed hugely to horses breaking down. if i want to practise riding forward to fences i go xc schooling and find a nice line of easy fences, and go up and down it a few times till the horse is looking for the next one and going forward to it out of its stride, with minimal interference from me. i don't need 'chase fences for that!
re: BE bringing in an accreditation scheme - great idea, but it'll cost, obviously. i don't think xc fence judges should have a say... some are very experienced, some really are not (but think they are... i had the 'pleasure' of listening to one of these on the radio all day last year, he knew **** all but was very opinionated, and if the rider took a slight setting-up, rebalancing pull coming to his fence (which i could see clearly from my fence) he commented that it had 'nearly stopped.' !!)

 

[Skhosu]

Just read through and to add from a point of view of 'hairy'
I had one particularly hairy round with my lad (who is very quick on his feet luckily) pulling into fences and being his usual silly self where he loses his head slightly, I was contemplating pulling up at one stage. I won that event. But did I go home thinking great, lets go up to novice? absoloutely not!
I have done some crackers of clears and ended up 6/7 but that's not really what matters as I know that I was safe (a big concern for me) and in control.
Which brings me to my next point, I could argue that my horse is a bit silly and should I be eventing him when he can lose his head? But he is the only horse I have, the only one I will have until I am qualified (3.5years) and most likely for a short while after that. I love eventing and hope I can get him back to being sensible, thankfully he has had an injury so I'm not under pressure to put him up to novice/1* but there's an example of the one horse rider sometimes has to make a choice about taking what's there or not going at all.

 

[kerilli]

ah, but this is the thing, TripleSandH, the riders we are worried about are the ones that have a totally hairy round, somehow go clear, think they're the bee's knees, and want to go up a level. Especially if they got a rosette for going like that! HOW do you tell/show someone that it isn't supposed to feel like that... YOU know the difference, but some people really don't!
last year at Keysoe i watched a girl attempt to gallop downhill into the N coffin fence. luckily wise old horse slowed himself down, set himself up, popped through neatly... and was rewarded with a few hard whacks down his bum because he hadn't jumped it at steeplechase speed, which was what she wanted.

WTF do you do with people like that? seriously? will landing on their head teach them, or videoing, or having someone with an official hat on go up to them and say "what you did was completely wrong and you are suspended."

 

[Skhosu]

I have no idea tbh, and I don't know that you can pin it on anything other than perhaps that eventing is accessible on your own now whereas before you maybe had to know a bit before you even knew about it?

 

[BuckingHorse]

I have just come back this thread and there are a lot of experienced people out there with some really sound ideas. Maybe we should be on the safety committee!

I am a company director and part of my remit is health and safety. The new regulations are frightening and, even with all the policies and procedures we have in place, there is still a chance that I could be found guilty if one of my staff has an accident and end up in prison.

BE will really need to look at improving rider safety moving forward, yes, we all know it is a risk sport but I don't think the no win no fee people see it like that. The recent comment about ecstacy being less dangerous than horse riding probably didn't help the profile!

 

[1pebbs1]

I havn't had time to read the entire debate on here but I don't often hear people talking about horse breeds and their *possible* influence on xc safety. When I take my horses to events now I often hear of peoples horses being ex-sjers and the like. Last year somebody was extremely impressed when they had a dressage score of 19 saying " oh yes he's fabulous at dressage- he has 289BD points you know." Unfortunately horses need to have good to exellent paces and be good sjers to win or do well at events these days- this is more typical of the warmblood than the t/b. Just because your horse is good at 2 out of 3 phases does not mean it should be an event horse. Becasue remember the real reason ehy people event is the challenge of 3 phases BUT with absolute emphasis on the xc! Just because your horse has a fab technique, never stops, rarely hits a pole etc and therefore probably does ok at PN/Nov DOES NOT mean it is going to be great xc and DOES NOT mean you should move up to Int/Adv. As stated earlier, a PN horse should not be classed as a fab xc horse. I believe this is why the likes of the gorgeous Miners Frolic etc are loved-people miss the typical event horse type- a thoroughbred or atleast a t/b type! Yes I believe that most horses could do Intro and PN, dare I say quite successfully, however from my experience its a different ball game when you move up to nov/Int etc. Obviously I'm not saying that the event horse SHOULD be a t/b, but don't you think this is why even the likes of Pippa F etc are breeding their warmbloods from predominantly t/b lines? Just a thought...

Oh dear I could talk about the differences between the old days and today forever. Pls don't shoot me down, as I say its just a thought

P.S Dare I bore you with going into detail about the different training of such animals. From MY experience- maybe not from eveybodys- t/bs tend to be more oppionated and brave than warmbloods- surely what xc is all about. Unless ofcourse you buy an extreme nutter, but if your that clueless on whats safe and whats not, are you sure you should be buying a horse anyway?

 

[kerilli]

i agree that the type of horse makes a huge difference. tb x ids and tbs are, usually, very quick thinking, and in my experience less spooky, less likely to be looking for dragons in ditches, than wbs. i have an extreme hang up about what the horse does with its shoulders and knees in the air, and i would never ride a horse xc which dangled its forearms in front, however beautifully it went on the flat and however much room it gave the sjs. a lot of the danglers i've seen have been wbs, powering their body high off the floor and then not bothering to fold up much in front. ewww.
Buckinghorse, re "BE will really need to look at improving rider safety moving forward"... argh, that was my original point in this post. How can you improve rider safety when you're jumping fixed fences? seriously? it IS a risk sport, and we choose to do it, or not. "safety" is an illusion. some of the best in the world have died doing this... and they were a lot better riders than 99% of those going round at the moment. some of those falls happened at the lower levels, too.
one thing BE could have done, endorsed Exo "cage-type" body protectors, made them mandatory so that the weight issue was null and void because everyone would be wearing one. they are one of the few true "safety" innovations which actually might mean the difference between getting squashed and never getting up again, or walking away from a fall. (and yes, i've put my money where my mouth is and bought one for this season.)

 

[BuckingHorse]

[Buckinghorse, re "BE will really need to look at improving rider safety moving forward"... argh, that was my original point in this post. How can you improve rider safety when you're jumping fixed fences? seriously? it IS a risk sport, and we choose to do it, or not. "safety" is an illusion. some of the best in the world have died doing this... and they were a lot better riders than 99% of those going round at the moment. some of those falls happened at the lower levels, too.
one thing BE could have done, endorsed Exo "cage-type" body protectors, made them mandatory so that the weight issue was null and void because everyone would be wearing one. they are one of the few true "safety" innovations which actually might mean the difference between getting squashed and never getting up again, or walking away from a fall. (and yes, i've put my money where my mouth is and bought one for this season.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi! What I meant to convey is that they need to look at a way of making riders, trainers, officials all responsible for safety - you make a really good point about jumping techniques in horses that should put people off. I think it is such a pet subject of mine that I waffle!

Can you teach someone pace judgement coming into different types of fences or is this a natural ability?

The other thing that springs to mind is the riders who have the ability to sit behind the horse (WFP comes to mind here), surely this gives them the freedom to pick up in front and rotate the shoulder without the influence of the rider's weight?

I'm rambling again!

Do agree about the Exo Cage though, anything riders can do to help their own safety has to be a positive step.

 

[Skhosu]

Query-how often do you hear of eventers not being hunted anymore as they're too silly etc (I'm guilty myself) this doesn't encourage good sensible horses.

 

[only_me]

QR

I only move up a level when i find the previous level easy - I found PN easy with merlin so i moved up to novice, and I havent found it harder to ride, but more demanding on my thinking speed and i relish the tougher tracks because i like the challenge.

My friends move up when they win at PN, which imo is wrong. it just happened that i won my last PN, i had planned to move up anyway.

but with regards to safety, i think ALL riders should be accredited when they want to event.

 

[Wiz]

Very interesting topic.
I agree that there should be a control on all and not just the young when you first compete BE - possibly just with the first horse you have but at least something to stop people diving in over their heads.

I think it would be over the remit of jump judges to be reporting on people (some would have the experience but others would not and it might put people off volunteering) but maybe someone with more experience in the control tower could be?

I agree with the "pressure" to be working up the levels. It's not necessarily BE (and they've changed the rules on PN I believe) but general feeling among competitors. I was 2nd at 3 intros last year - but there's no way I or the horse are ready to tackle PN xc. I'm still waiting for the xc round to be a consistantly positive one and not where he has a bit of a look at something. He can do that at intro and have the scope to jump it. But I constantly was expected to be going up to PN as I'd been placed by fellow competitiors/friends etc.

Different types of horses being used especailly as the lower levels are more accessible to all types do not all find the speeds xc easy. Something that doesn't cover the ground or naturally gallop will potentially struggle with the time encouraging people to jump everything as quickly as possible rather than riding according to the type of fence. Not sure of the solution to that though

 

[kerilli]

Re: "Can you teach someone pace judgement coming into different types of fences or is this a natural ability?
The other thing that springs to mind is the riders who have the ability to sit behind the horse (WFP comes to mind here), surely this gives them the freedom to pick up in front and rotate the shoulder without the influence of the rider's weight?"

Yes, you can definitely teach the former, I am absolutely positive of that.
I disagree with the latter, lots of sjers get very forward on take-off and it doesn't stop their horses getting 6' in the air!
I totally agree with only_me about only moving up the levels when it feels easy. This brings us back to the problem mentioned already though, some people seem to think that a fast, chancy, hairy, horrible round to watch that is somehow clear and inside the time, is an "easy" round, so they're happy to go on up a level...
how do you teach someone what it is supposed to feel like?!

 

[connie1288]

I agree i only step up a level when i am happy.
The question of having to be accredited is an interesting one, i rode a pony in JRN's and was accredited and passed in the spring to do JRN's, however the pony had only done 1 intro and i had only done 1 PN, we were both very green but i took advice and we were fine, this same pony has no gone back to her owners and has to do intro as jockey too young, doing intro on that pony is madness, she has jumped intermediate with me, and PC opens with younger jockey but will do intro, she will gallop round and take too many risks, pony not the rider as she finds it too easy. Yes make young jockeys start at the bottom but have routes of fast tracking if on more experienced ponies.
Also i may be way of the mark here but i feel that alot of the serious falls we have that are serious are slow, and due to the rules, especially one fall and your out, causes people to try and hold on until it is too late, and you may be under the horse, and squashed. If you watch the race jockeys, when they fall they realise they are going and eject fairly on before the horse has hit the ground, USUALLY, please dont bite my head of if i have got this wrong, but this is something i have noticed, but i am not sure how we can prevent this other than be aware of our limits.

 

[milliepops]

[ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with only_me about only moving up the levels when it feels easy. This brings us back to the problem mentioned already though, some people seem to think that a fast, chancy, hairy, horrible round to watch that is somehow clear and inside the time, is an "easy" round, so they're happy to go on up a level...
how do you teach someone what it is supposed to feel like?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is something we all agree with. What interests me is how to make it more attractive to those less able riders to stay at a lower level until they are doing it easily - something that is better than the kudos of doing a higher level.

I wondered whether you could earn Intro or PN points for example - I think the lure of Novice in particular is that you can start gaining points (be honest, many of us know how exciting it was to get your first point!

) Something to make people want to stay at a level until they had 'cracked' it.

 

[jumptoit]

I think it depends on the background of the younger rider - I proved myself to my parents at unaffiliated events and still only enter BE at levels I am capable of getting a double clear at.

I feel that those coming up through pc and rc are often better prepared as most attend frequent rallies and get the opinions of various trainers maybe it should be required to have a DC or instructor sign you entry form to say in their opinion you are safe but then do they want the responsibility as accidents do happen?

Personally if I'm very likely to have a few poles then that could be an accident on the xc. I only move up a level after plenty of schooling and unaffiliated competition at the level I wish to move up to.

...... feel free to disagree!

 

[TarrSteps]

[ QUOTE ]
There is all this hoo-ha about bad riding, but the people who have had fatal accidents have all been "experienced riders" mostly competeting at the top events and in most cases virtually professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I'd still say, if you get it wrong going 450m/m over a fence well within your horse's capability, (and possibly riding a horse that is, um, more used to things not going exactly right

) you are not likely to have a colossal wreck. But if you make the same mistake going a lot faster, over a bigger, more technical jump, on a longer course, with the pressure really on, when you more often get it right than wrong, the consequences are far more likely to be dire. It's like saying more people die in car crashes when the car is going 70 than 30 because there are more collisions at the higher speed. I doubt it. But if you make the same mistake at 70 because you got away with it at 30 . . .

[ QUOTE ]

I can remember going to a cross country clinic back in the 1970s, and the trainer quoted Frank Weldon as the art of cross country riding was rather inelegantly "one in the gob and one in the ribs." That stayed with me as a reminder when galloping across country.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it one in the gob, two in the ribs? Charming expression.

But I"m not sure it was supposed to be about a lack of finesse xc, as much as a jokey comment on what one should be doing xc. I could have it completely wrong but wasn't part of the point that, boiled down, you should kick twice as much as you pull? That's quite a different point to be getting across.

Someone did make the point that in the days before the internet we simply didn't know if anyone other than the top riders died/were hurt competing. I'd say that's true, to a point. Now you hear about every accident, again and again, no matter how far away the scene, which does make it sound like things are much, much worse now but, like so many crime statistics, it's not necessarily borne out by a careful look at the statistics.

 

[wench]

[ QUOTE ]
*
I was dressage writing at Oasby and witnessed a rider pretty much still holding on to the pommel...in a PN. They were bouncing all over the place, and had no balance or co-ordination. They were eliminated SJ, yet were allowed XC?!

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this quiet insulting... I was at Oasby (doing the intro) I got eliminated, as I went the wrong way in the SJ, asked if I could go XC, the answer was no, as well I expected. However, my horse was fine in the dressage, and reasonably well behaved in the SJ. Admitiddly, he wasnt jumping the fences as well as he could but...

I was writing for the sj at Oasby on one of the Novice classes. How some of those horses managed to ger round that course of sj I will never know, and yet these people are deemed safe (along with the example above) to go XC, and yet I wasnt allowed... Not very fair (I'm by no means a fantastic rider, but I have seen far worse than me attempting to event!)

 

[kerilli]

Re: "Also i may be way of the mark here but i feel that alot of the serious falls we have that are serious are slow, and due to the rules, especially one fall and your out, causes people to try and hold on until it is too late, and you may be under the horse, and squashed. If you watch the race jockeys, when they fall they realise they are going and eject fairly on before the horse has hit the ground, USUALLY, please dont bite my head of if i have got this wrong, but this is something i have noticed, but i am not sure how we can prevent this other than be aware of our limits."
yes, i agree with this totally. the problem is the emphasis on stickability. i have said lots of times, falling off is not the end of the world, but getting landed on can be.

just look at Team Chasers, they go very fast, 4 at a time, over courses with hedges that might daunt a 4* horse, and, thank god, there are very few serious injuries... because they don't get penalties for a fall, and because a lot of them use race saddles for lightness, so they are more likely to let go earlier and be thrown clear. the fact that saddles nowadays have a lot more blocking and padding to help the rider (same with dressage!) and that there is this HUGE emphasis on Not Falling Off, is not good imho.
perhaps we should abolish faults for rider falls...!

 

[jumptoit]

I hadn't thought about it that way, but I can definitely see where you are coming from.

 

[Decision_Tree]

I havent read all the posts sorry! so this reply might just be alittle out of left!

But I am a rider who rides in the lower levels and I am more than aware of the risks. I would like to ask if the people above this level really are?

I jump what I feel safe doing. If I see a fence I dont like or dont feel 100% then I wouldnt jump it - is that the case for all people jumping? I walk courses thinking "wow this looks good - yes we can do this" thats the attitude we go into every fence with. I get nervous excitment not fear. do people ride with fear or with too much pressure? pushy parents?

I think the emphasis on safety is fantastic. I work in a high risk job with a massive safety culture. This culture reduces injuries of all severity. I think that if you are deamed unsafe at any level to ride this should be recorded in the BE processes, like at when I am a work. Surely the rider arm bands are a good place to look? I think the organiser/course steward should have the right to ask an unable rider to leave the course. we wouldnt see an unable horse out there so same should apply for riders at any level from BE80T up.

 

[seabiscuit]

So riders are dying because they either go too fast or too slow...it is nothing to do with speed, if you miss a fence, youv'e missed. Deaths have happened at all paces. Sometimes the horse can sort itself out, sometimes not. Its luck, fate, just accept it- you know you take these risks when you ride.

TBH, there is not much you can do about it. Its all very well going on and on about riders jumping courses in bad style, course design being wrong, or horses being so over schooled in dressage etc etc etc, but unless humans and horses become like computers and learn to present a horse at a fence exactly right, every single time...these deaths will still keep happening. Sorry!

All you can do really, to make things better is to have better education/tuition and well written guidelines in place about how to jump fences out of a ryhthm in a balanced and fluent way, and the right exercises/techniques that have to be done to develope this finesse. And how to approach different types of fences correctly. At least by doing this, you reduce the odds of an accident happening.

Its not just the amateurs-Even some of our big eventing winners and professionals still haven't quite got the idea of perfect/good cross country riding

but hey, we are all only human- and not computers ( except Toddy on XC

)

Remember that year at Badminton ( about a year or so ago) when we had this big drop or jump into this quarry, it was a roll top I think, then they had a very steep vertical hill going downwards right after the rolltop....( cant remember the exact type of fence but am sure you all know what I mean!) the number of riders that went so fast at this roll top was SHOCKING! when it should have been popped out of a nice coffin canter. Mark Phillips was shocked as well, he commented on it in his H&H column. Anyway, loads of riders came to grief, think one had to be airlifted off somewhere.

It was so obvious to me,and I am just lowly amateur who prob knows f-all, but it was damm obvious how that fence should have been jumped yet some of these so called 4 star professionals obviously still quite dont know what they should be doing with approaching certain types of jumps on a XC course.



So, yeah, thats my thoughts on it all. All you can do is educate people on how to ride XC properly.What especially needs to be learnt is how to ride different approaches for different fences, the speed that you go at, and what you should be doing with your body..etc.etc.etc

There probably isnt enough training on XC courses. We do so much SJ and Dressage, and never XC. Perhaps this is why the Hoys say that they school horses on a XC course every single time before they do an event on it.

Do not think that the deaths have increased per se- the number of people eventing now has obviously increased about 10/20 fold and of course the media now reports every little thing happening so we are more aware of it.

 

[jumptoit]

[ QUOTE ]
TBH, there is not much you can do about it. Its all very well going on and on about riders jumping courses in bad style, course design being wrong, or horses being so over schooled in dressage etc etc etc, but unless humans and horses become like computers and learn to present a horse at a fence exactly right, every single time...these deaths will still keep happening. Sorry!

[/ QUOTE ]

And then it just wouldn't be fun any more! I can see your point and there's only a certain extent others can possibly go to, at the end of the day something has to be up to the individual- it's there life!

 

[kerilli]

Yes, exactly, but this is my point really... BE is trying to work on Safety, but it's an unattainable Holy Grail, and can mislead people into thinking that xc can be made safe.