Young dressage prospects?

[katiejaye]

I am interested in investing in a youngster to bring on with a very good friend/trainer. I wondered what people's views were on how much we should be looking to spend and where is the best place to look. I saw this mare and was quite interested:

http://www.horsedeals.co.uk/horsedetails.aspx?horseid=17190

I will of course be seeking professional advice from my trainer but just wondered what your views were on here. Thanks

 

[beh]

my trainer has said, that to get a youngster to take to the top you would a least be looking at spending around 5k, but i loved the look of the one you like, talking to studs and talking to respected dressage trainers/breeders i expect is the place to start, good luck
XJX

 

[jackpalfreyman]

That horse looks very nice, but if it is a proper smart horse you are looking for, with nationals/advanced potential then be prepared to spend a bit more cash! Especially for something with a trainable temperament AND ability and be warned, if you end up with one or the other you will be in for a rough ride! We had a horse at the yard- rubensteinXweltmeyer-loads of abilty, but soooo laid back he was horizontal, and when you got after him he was vertical half the time!!!

I would also suggest getting something that is backed(like the one you like) so you have an idea of rideabilty, a horse might flat around pretty when loose schooled but it isnt always the same story when you are on board!!

To get the best horse possible i can only suggest looking to the continent-especially korenbloem-www.worldwidedressage.com My trainer went there and tried over 30 horses in 2 days of all different prices and ended up with a fantastic 3yo who is going to be a superstar!

 

[katiejaye]

thanks that is very helpful. I wil definately take that advice. My trainer is going to try out some horses in Germany for himself and I think I will tag along to get an idea of what we need to spend etc. My trainer has a gorgeous dressage youngster that he bought from Germany and is doing very well at the moment so it's most prob the best way to go.

Thanks

 

[Tempi]

you dont need to spend a stupid amount of money on a youngster, you just need to be capble of good training and by one with a bit of movement and good confirmation. Look at Bloss, yes fair enough shes not going much further but i paid 2.5k for her as a 9year old, shes beating top well bred horses - shes just proof its not what you pay, its how you train.

For my youngster i will be looking at spending around £5k - i want one to go all the way, and whilst i want good breeding, if something comes along thats not got the breeding but its got the presence/confirmation and build i will be going for it. By watching a horse move you can tell whether its going to be a world beater or not.

 

[0]

I'd go to the brightwells november auction at addington - usually the best collection of youngsters from abroad and the uk (mainly abroad!!) and you get to compete in the challenge which is a fab way to start off a top prospects career!!! (horses nearer to £10k though. But, If you are seriously wanting a horse that at 3 or 4 has the real potential to go all the way i don't think you can pay less - if its less then there must be a reason why beacause all the other GP hopefulls are that money and upwards)

P_G i understand what your saying and all credit to you for buying an 'unknown' horse for that amount and getting to where you have - however the best bloodlines are regarded as the best for a reason, and absolutely no disrespect because you are doing great things with what you have but your horse is doing the area festivals etc etc and that is great but a whole different ball game to a serious youngster being campaigned for the top which should be winning everytime out with 70%+ scores therefore going to the regionals and i would expect it to get through and go on to be top 5 at nationals/winters. I think at the lower levels you can 'get lucky' and good training can create a horse capable of doing ok, but if we are talking about a prospect to get to at least adv. level (and be doing well at that level) then i don't think it's all about good training - the horses talent comes into play.
It has been said that ANY horse can be trained upto elem dressage as it is not asking anything of them that they shouldn't be able to easily do - it is beyond that when it gets hard and so having a bred for the job horse is very important

 

[Tempi]

so any old horse can do elementary can it? i think thats quite a sweeping statment considering some standards ive seen at elementary which to be honest shouldnt even be doing prelim.

Training is everything - if id brought bloss as a 4year old i can garentee id have her up to PSG. The fact that she was brought so late in life is hindering her performance somewhat as it takes longer for her to learn. Im not saying good breeding isnt important, because it is, but people get so het up on paying stupid amounts for a horse by say Gribaldi (for example) they dont think about its trainabilty/conformation/temperment. Its no good having a horse worth a small fortune that you cant get in the arena (i know a couple of donnerhals like this).

When i get my youngster i do want a weltmeyer or Gribaldi but thats my choice and im not too fussed about the mares side, aslong as the presence is there and ive got a blank canvess to work on anything can be done.

 

[ihatework]

I can see your point P_G but I think Jem1 has hit the nail on the head.
Any horse can do elementary PROVIDED it is trained correctly. You yourself have proved this and openly admit your horses mediums and leg yield aren't the best and yet you have still been relatively successful.

 

[miller]

But look at how well Carol Parsons has done with her - not bred for dressage - horses.

There are others as well at that level who do not have trendy lines - not saying the breeding doesn't make life easier but I agree with what Parisienne Girl is saying.

My lad is more hunter bred than dressage 1/2TB 1/4 Welsh D 1/4 ID but more than one trainer has said if he'd started dressage earlier he would have gone to Ini, he is schooling advanced at home and his piaffe/passage are there and improving - he's also regularly beaten 'dressage horses'

 

[JoBo]

Have you tried this place? I can't totally recommend!!!! Instructor has had four horses from there, and we brought Blackie from there (the cobs side of the business obviously). Just a thought.

www.danishhorses.com

 

[0]

[ QUOTE ]
so any old horse can do elementary can it? i think thats quite a sweeping statment considering some standards ive seen at elementary which to be honest shouldnt even be doing prelim.

yes - because its all down to their training - i truely believe that ANY horse that is well trained can do a half decent (67%ish) elementary test.

[ QUOTE ]
if id brought bloss as a 4year old i can garentee id have her up to PSG. The fact that she was brought so late in life is hindering her performance somewhat as it takes longer for her to learn.

hmm....i've never met your horse or you so i can't say that she wouldn't be. However, if you've never asked for the movements how do you know she's got them and also trainability is trainability, usually they are quick to learn and will be all there life or they're not - horses on route to GP are usually at psg at 9yrs old so believe me at that age they still have to be very quick learners! I hear it all the time about if this and if that my horse could be doing this or that - well unless it's doing it then it doesn't count. and i know some fabulous Donnerhalls and some pretty crazy weltmeyers - horses are horses some are quieter/more trainable than others

[ QUOTE ]
Im not saying good breeding isnt important, because it is, but people get so het up on paying stupid amounts for a horse by say Gribaldi (for example) they dont think about its trainabilty/conformation/temperment. Its no good having a horse worth a small fortune that you cant get in the arena (i know a couple of donnerhals like this).[ QUOTE ]


and i know some fabulous Donnerhalls and some pretty crazy weltmeyers - horses are horses some are quieter/more trainable than others

your right, that they do need to be trainable but i would expect a horse to have the whole lot and i never suggested i don't - i want trainability AND ability. Trainability without talent is equally not going to get you to the top. [/b] and i know some fabulous Donnerhalls and some pretty crazy weltmeyers - horses are horses some are quieter/more trainable than others

 

[Tempi]

yes but Bloss is leg yielding now (got 7s for both on saturday) - and her mediums are actually getting better with lots of lengthened pole work. Im jsut trying to say that everyone is all for buying expensive horse just coz they think they will be the best, but they're not always. Money dosent buy you a GP horse..........training/talent/temperment make the horse.

 

[Tempi]

huh??

 

[ihatework]

I didn't say otherwise !!! I have just spent the summer beating 'dressage bred' horses on an IDx
All I was saying is that I believe any horse can be trained to elementary level.
Many can be trained significantly further if they have the brain and conformation too.

BUT at the highest levels the vast majority are the 'dressage warmbloods', of course there will be the odd exception but just go and look at the ratio of those out doing it !

 

[0]

[ QUOTE ]
Money dosent buy you a GP horse..........training/talent/temperment make the horse.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, but more often than not money buys you a horse with the tools to become a GP horse..........if you read my above post you will see that i think that the horse and the training are equally important but if the horse can't do something then all the training in the world won't help (and if you did get the movements they would lack expression etc).
I'n not on about bloodlines as much as talent for dressage - which is mainly found in the bred for dressage horses but yes, can be found elsewhere but either way you have to pay for talent!

 

[patchandloopy]

[ QUOTE ]
When i get my youngster i do want a weltmeyer or Gribaldi but thats my choice and im not too fussed about the mares side, aslong as the presence is there and ive got a blank canvess to work on anything can be done.

[/ QUOTE ]

all the weltmeyers i know are pretty tricky horses!!!

A weltmeyer in particular i wont say anymore as the forum is public, is very tricky-one minute its fab and winning then next broncing up the arena and getting elimiated, the person who owns it spend alot on money on it-as a youngster -bank canvas and has even thought about giving it up as everytime she got on it would buck her off-not just a poncy buck-a meaningfull buck as well! at 5 its only just starting to calm down a little, if it didnt get turnout it would go bonkers i think!!

 

[Tempi]

Yes ive heard that too - but you find with every horse from a top stallion someone has a bad story about one!!

 

[patchandloopy]

not tryin to put you off-but it there has been problems with more than one of his offspring!!!

 

[katiejaye]

P_G my boy too was an unknown and has no breeding. Bought him as a scrawny 4 yr old from Ireland with bad scaring on his legs and a reduced price! He was so green to start but he has always had a real natural talent for dressage too. My trainer says he has the right attitude and paces to go all the way too so I also believe that you can be lucky and have an unknown that has the potential to go all the way. So like you I believe there are some real bargain horses out there with the natural talent to go all the way!

As we don't have vast amounts of money we may start with a small project, something relatively unknown but with the right attitude and movement. I think for now we'll keep open minded and view all different types i.e. with and without good bloodlines, and keep you all updated.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone

 

[Tempi]

theres problems with more than one of every top stallions offspring, like i said everyone will always have bad stories to tell about stallions offspring as no horse is perfect.........

 

[siennamum]

I might be inclined to look at a welsh pb just out of interest. I know of one which was bought for 2.5k and has GP potential, they may not have such loose supple movement, but can have really round, expressive paces and fantastic hind leg.
Nibeley have a welsh pb stallion standing as a dressage sire, and I think they are sufficiently untrendy to allow you to get a bargain.
Though they can be hot, that can be a bonus also they tend to be such nice people to have about, I'd have one any day over a WB.

 

[piaffe]

I totally agre with you p-g, It really is more to do with having an eye for a horse and being able to train it correctly.

Look at carol parsons?? (ok, so i worked for her, but its an example).

She bought 2 horses both shire x tb one 5 and the other 3 (half brothers); walter was, very successfully competing at grand prix level. Her next horse (current one) is also a shire cross tb, bought as a scruffy 3 yr old none of us could get near paid a minimal amount £3000 at the absolute tops and now she is doing very well on her at Grand Prix.
just shows it does not take all the money in the world.

 

[0]

i know that there are some exceptions BUT as a rule the horses bred for dressage are the ones that have the most talent for dressage.....of course they are not the ONLY horses with any talent for dressage lots of other horses have varying degrees of ability.....some start to struggle at elem/some psg etc etc BUT the odds of getting a horse succesfully to GP are seriously improved if you buy a horse built to do that job (i have not said it has to be from dressage bloodlines (although i would choose it to be) but i have said it has to have the ability and of course it stands to reason that those bred to do dressage are going to be better at it than most of those that were not).

Of course there is also the question of what is 'succesful'. to me it is going to the nationals and the winters (proper classes - not area fest....i at least would expect the horse to qualify for the regionals) every year, at every level and being top 10.

BTW i'm not rubbishing the area festivals, i'm just distinguishing the difference between this type of competition (to me for hobby/pleasure riders) and the type of competition a top level prospect should be participating in (nationals/winters/YH classeas). the area festivals are great for those who don't make it to the regionals and i do think that if the rider is happy doing what they are doing then that is all that matters BUT they are not a competition for horses being aimed for the top.

 

[ihatework]

I love it when people talk sense

 

[Doreys_Mum]

I have two cobs, who when ridden competently can perform dressage to a certain standard that completely shats all over those horses bred for dressage.

But then, if their incompetent owners didn't bung them in draw reins and expect them to perform because of their breeding, perhaps they'd be at the same standard as my heavy weight irish gypsy horse.

Dorey is still work in progress because she's had so little schooling, especially since I got into a-levels, but she can still DO everything, if not well.

 

[druid]

Oh come on, they're GP or they aren't. There's not much grey area there...at 9 they should still be quick enough off the mark to pick up leg yield quicker than 2 years down the line if they're of that calibre.

For the record my mare is 11 and although she has the groundings of tempi-changes (we're down to two's) and a good medium trot & canter she'll NEVER make a GP horse with all the schooling in the world as she just doens't have a decent piaffe in her. How on earth can you say Bloss would go GP without knowing if that piaffe/passage/tempi-change is in there??

If, if, if, if...........

 

[0]

[ QUOTE ]
But then, if their incompetent owners didn't bung them in draw reins and expect them to perform because of their breeding, perhaps they'd be at the same standard as my heavy weight irish gypsy horse.

[/ QUOTE ]

As i said somewhere in this post - i go to the brightwells auctions and it always astounds me how many Fabulous horses are sold and never heard of again or even more disturbingly i see them again but they are crap - it is such a waste!!
so this again backs up the point about the horse and the rider being of equal importance to the success of the pertnership.
i see it very often when people on ok horses get VERY excited because they have beaten a warmblood and they think that makes themselves good......well maybe it does but if the person onboard the expensive warmblood is crap then it really is no achievement to have beaten it. To be fair Doreys_mum, i am sure your heavyweight Irish horses are lovely BUT if these 'bred for dressage' horses were being ridden to the exact same standard as yours then the dressage horses would win because they will be looser and more engaged and more uphill and more expressive etc etc and so it really annoys me when people, as you say, think they can buy a good horse and it will make up for them being crap because it won't it will just ruin a good horse.

SO it also annoys me when people say..... dressage horses are not better at dressage than other horses because my horse beat the dressage horse - PLEASE look at the rider - the horses from dressage bloodlines will be better than those not IF they were all well ridden.

 

[0]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh come on, they're GP or they aren't. There's not much grey area there...at 9 they should still be quick enough off the mark to pick up leg yield quicker than 2 years down the line if they're of that calibre.

For the record my mare is 11 and although she has the groundings of tempi-changes (we're down to two's) and a good medium trot & canter she'll NEVER make a GP horse with all the schooling in the world as she just doens't have a decent piaffe in her. How on earth can you say Bloss would go GP without knowing if that piaffe/passage/tempi-change is in there??

If, if, if, if...........

[/ QUOTE ]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jackpalfreyman]

OK guys lets be realistic, we all know that the average IDX TBX cobs etc cannot compete against the best warmbloods, trained and ridden by the best riders, FACT. You only have to look at the spriti freedom, sandman and destination's of the world-winning national tittles year in year out, and will continure to do so all the way to the top, becasue they have the trainability and natural ability only found in a warmblood.

Yes it is possible to buy a shire X and train it to grand prix, but is it going to be a team horse?? no! it takes a talented rider to train a horse with everything against it to that level yes, but im doubtful as to how many championships it is going to win on the way!

However, pop over to holland, pick up a nice active 3yo by Jazz, with the natural ability that it could already go out and win any affiliated novice class when only being broken 4 weeks, then you will have much chance of being successful.

I have nothing against people training horses not bred for the job, and as long as tehy are trained correctly, they will definatly have alot of fun and pick up a few rossettes on the way-which is why teh area festivals are so fantastic, look at the gypsy cob that won last year! great example of a horse well trained winning a national tittle against the odds!

 

[Halfstep]

[ QUOTE ]
You only have to look at the spriti freedom, sandman and destination's of the world-winning national tittles year in year out,

[/ QUOTE ]

But these three horses are also ridden by three of the best RIDERS in the country! I doubt that Sandman (who was apparently very difficult as a youngster) could have made it with a lesser rider on top, but with GH on board, he's a superstar.

Good bloodlines, uphill conformation, etc. are a huge advantage, but they do not guarantee success. Rider talent and the trainability of the horse are vital, and while warmbloods are more likely to have these traits, sometimes, with a sensitive rider, a non-warmblood with a latent talent can flourish. But such horses are unusual, they are very rare indeed, and so far less likely to reach the top in dressage than your typical Ferro/Sandro Hit/Gribaldi/Donnerhall etc. progeny.