Young dressage prospects?

[druid]

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OK guys lets be realistic, we all know that the average IDX TBX cobs etc cannot compete against the best warmbloods, trained and ridden by the best riders, FACT.

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Uh, Jacko...you do realsie that an IDx or TBx is infact a WB, right??

 

[H's mum]

I was just about to point that out Druid - well said
I know of lots of wellbred "Warmbloods" - Go back to their breeding papers and they are all half tbs!!!!

Warmblood... HOT horse (Ie tb/arab) crossed with COLD blood (Draught horse - ID/Shire included) - makes a WARM blood - simple really

Kate x

 

[Doreys_Mum]

At the end of the day, you can feed your horse all the suppliments in the world, ride it for 23 hours a day and use every gadget on the market.

If you can't ride, you'll never release that horses potential, reguardless of it's breeding.

On the other hand, if you can ride, you could get anything to perform to a high standard...without needing to rely on the above!

 

[severnmiles]

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I was just about to point that out Druid - well said
I know of lots of wellbred "Warmbloods" - Go back to their breeding papers and they are all half tbs!!!!

Warmblood... HOT horse (Ie tb/arab) crossed with COLD blood (Draught horse - ID/Shire included) - makes a WARM blood - simple really

Kate x

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep! The majority of traks I used to work with were made up of TB's and Arabs in the last 100 years which were used to lighten them. Originally the trakehner was a draught horse, bloomin great big heavy things.

As for Tb's unable to compete at that level, Chris Bartle rode a TB at the Olympics in pure dressage and who is that rider who rides two at the top that are shire x Tb?

 

[Bossanova]

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As for Tb's unable to compete at that level, Chris Bartle rode a TB at the Olympics in pure dressage and who is that rider who rides two at the top that are shire x Tb?

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But that just wont happen anymore- it's perfectly possible to train tbs up to the right level but they will never have the movement and expressivity which is what most of modern dressage is judged on. Gone are the days when correct training was the main criteria, now it's all about how far the horse can throw its legs out in front of it. Take that horse at WEG- grey one who got bronze or silver- it hads no rythym in it's piaffe/passage, the 1/2 pass was positively irregular and he made mistakes but he had such lift and extravagance that he scored better marks than a far more correct horses did.

A subject I feel pretty strongly about and could probably argue all day!!

 

[SirenaXVI]

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now it's all about how far the horse can throw its legs out in front of it.

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Could not agree more Boss

 

[vic07]

but does this not go back to the whole problem with dressage? Whether it be eventing or pure. Too often horses which look the part ridden by a name get much better marks than an amateur with a correctly trained horse. Therefore people go for horses which move huge, they then can't ride them so the basics are f*******! Judges don't sem to be able to distinguish the difference between horses who are going correctly following the training scales.

Point close to my heart.

 

[0]

[ QUOTE ]
But that just wont happen anymore- it's perfectly possible to train tbs up to the right level but they will never have the movement and expressivity which is what most of modern dressage is judged on. Gone are the days when correct training was the main criteria, now it's all about how far the horse can throw its legs out in front of it. Take that horse at WEG- grey one who got bronze or silver- it hads no rythym in it's piaffe/passage, the 1/2 pass was positively irregular and he made mistakes but he had such lift and extravagance that he scored better marks than a far more correct horses did.

A subject I feel pretty strongly about and could probably argue all day!!

[/ QUOTE ]

i totally agree with the top bit - simply because the standard is so much higher these days - it used to be that if you could do everything correctly then that was enough but these days in top competitions most of the combinations can do everything and therefore you have to do it the best/the most expressively etc etc. So yes even if you do train a horse to do all the movements it is very important how impressively it does them as well as how correctly.

However i do also agree that it is becoming more common for expression (impressiveness/ wow factor) to become more important than correctness - i agree that if one horse does something correctly but not patticularly WOW and another does it WOW but irregular/unbal etc then the first SHOULD get the higher mark. But of course for those that said non dressage horses can do as well at dressage as dressage horses: if you have a horse that does everything correctly and another that does it correctly and is looser/more expressive/carrying more weight behind or whatever then this horse WILL win - even if it's just from collectivess. So i agree with Bossanova just correctness isn't enough anymore, of course it is still important which is why i have argued this whole thread that training IS important but you need something extra aswell now. You need correctness AND expression, looseness etc etc.

Remember there is a reason why the top bloodlines are regarded as the top bloodlines in every sphere and in dressage they achive this status because they are and they produce the best dressage horses.

Of course theyre are eg's of other horses doing well in dressage but they are rare and becoming even more so - they are also never team horses and tend to mainly be known for being a bit different.

Carol Parsons for example has done very well with her horses on a personal level and i'm sure she is delighted with what she has achieved BUT on a larger scale, if she was on a bred for dressage horse - lets say a son of Donnerhall - then no-one would know who she is or her horse because on a national scale she is not succesful and will not be in contention for teams - she is only known BECAUSE the horse is a shire cross. So yes of course you can get other horses up to grand prix but she is a perfect example of the glass ceiling that exists for those not on a dressage horse.

 

[Halfstep]

errmm, wasn't Carol Parsons on the team for the Barcelona Olympics (some Olympics anyway.....). She lost the horse and could never afford to replace it, not having a wealthy backer. So she bought "cheap" horses and brought them up the grades herself.

(actually agree with you about the "glass ceiling" bit though!).

 

[0]

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errmm, wasn't Carol Parsons on the team for the Barcelona Olympics (some Olympics anyway.....). She lost the horse and could never afford to replace it, not having a wealthy backer. So she bought "cheap" horses and brought them up the grades herself.

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i haven't heard that so don't know but if she was i think that just even more highlights the point made with Chris Bartels and his TB - it just won't happen anymore!!!

 

[Peaches]

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Carol Parsons for example has done very well with her horses on a personal level and i'm sure she is delighted with what she has achieved BUT on a larger scale, if she was on a bred for dressage horse - lets say a son of Donnerhall - then no-one would know who she is

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Except probably the people who competed against her in the Barcelona Olympics maybe???? I suspect they would remember her.....its not that long ago after all!

Carol has been there, done it & got the T shirt internationally as well as nationally with Vashkar.......

FWIW worth I don;t think the standard is any higher these days unless you are thinking of the standard in front leg flinging - the standard of correct work has not increased IMO & few competing internationally do 'everything correctly'.

Also there is a degree of statistics involved here - most 'successful' dressage horses are WBs cos most dressage horses are WBs and it is self perpetuating - cos then people who want a dressage horse look at WB breeding because they are more successful.........

 

[0]

they were 14years ago - in sport that IS a long time (and as i was 6 at this time i'm sure you can forgive me for not having remembered that) BUT these days, on the curcuit is she well known - no.

The standard is imho much higher and i'm sure all at BD would be gutted if they thought that some people didn't think.....the sport is evolving and moving with the times. I'm actually sckocked that you think the standard is the same as it was 14 years ago

 

[Bananaman]

Whew! What a debate this is turning out to be!!!!

Interestingly enough there is a similar one going on on another forum at the moment, i.e whether the standard of dressage is higher or lower now than in time gone by.
http://www.saddle-up.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=150346

Personally, I feel that the tests are now more flamboyant and are more exciting but this is probably at the expense of correctness of training.
I felt the same when watching the Grand Prix Kur at Olympia last year.
The very correct test appeared rather dull against the more exciting one that contained mistakes.
Whilst trying to make dressage more audience friendly, I feel we musn't lose sight of what dressage should be............a harmonious partnership between horse and rider.

 

[Peaches]

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these days, on the curcuit is she well known - no

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LOL!

It comes down to how you define the standard - I don;t think the standard is the same, I think it is lower when you compare it to the FEI definitions.

 

[lordflynn]

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Take that horse at WEG- grey one who got bronze or silver- it hads no rythym in it's piaffe/passage, the 1/2 pass was positively irregular and he made mistakes but he had such lift and extravagance that he scored better marks than a far more correct horses did.



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that horse's movement was just plain bizarre and alot of the WEG dressage was plain ugly-not alot of harmony just alot of riders bobbing about on big moving horses. didnt do alot for me.
surely dressage should be about correctness before flash?

 

[piaffe]

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who is that rider who rides two at the top that are shire x Tb?


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That'll be my old boss carol parsons!

Giddy is an amazing little mare.

 

[piaffe]

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errmm, wasn't Carol Parsons on the team for the Barcelona Olympics (some Olympics anyway.....). She lost the horse and could never afford to replace it, not having a wealthy backer. So she bought "cheap" horses and brought them up the grades herself.

(actually agree with you about the "glass ceiling" bit though!).

[/ QUOTE ]

What rubbish! Yes carol was in the barcelona olympics on Vashkar. She then retired him out to a loving home, i know because i rode him a few times.

She then came across 2 british bred horses and knew they had something, bought them, trained them both up, sold one, competed the other then bought 2 more of exactly the same breeding and did the same.

As for not being able to afford an expensive horse- rubbish, money was never a problem for them

 

[0]

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surely dressage should be about correctness before flash?

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yes, i think it most definately should but i am saying you need both - imho in order to be competitive at the top you have to have a flashy horse with a bit of flair and sparkle but not at the expense of correctness - after all why can't we have correct horses that are flashy??

 

[spaniel]

Fabulous discussion.

As to having correctness and flash, what happens when all those correct flashy warmbloods come up against each other? What makes the cream float to the top then?

I can only assume that eventually we will end up breeding horses who are either deformed or weak just to get something other than toe chucking to catch the judges eye.

Just as an aside I think there are super talented horses in all permutations of breed just as there are in people, there are gifted animals and properly nurtured I see no reason at all why they cannot compete alongside these 'designer' dressage horses.

Im old enough to remember when a warmblood in the arena was unusual, then the world and his wife went and invested in one, thats when dressage died for me at the lower levels....it became tedium.

 

[lordflynn]

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flashy horse with a bit of flair and sparkle but not at the expense of correctness - after all why can't we have correct horses that are flashy??

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couldnt agree more-unfortunately someone needs to tell some of the judges

 

[Halfstep]

Sorry Piaffe! I was stupidly echoeing what I had been told - obviously wrongly. Note to self not to believe everything you hear.

x

 

[0]

[ QUOTE ]
Fabulous discussion.

As to having correctness and flash, what happens when all those correct flashy warmbloods come up against each other? What makes the cream float to the top then?

I can only assume that eventually we will end up breeding horses who are either deformed or weak just to get something other than toe chucking to catch the judges eye.

Just as an aside I think there are super talented horses in all permutations of breed just as there are in people, there are gifted animals and properly nurtured I see no reason at all why they cannot compete alongside these 'designer' dressage horses.

Im old enough to remember when a warmblood in the arena was unusual, then the world and his wife went and invested in one, thats when dressage died for me at the lower levels....it became tedium.

[/ QUOTE ]

when they come up against each other.....hmm.... well i suppose there is a spectrum of correctness as there is with 'flashyniss' as there is with harmony etc as oppose to that IS correct and that is NOT - if you see what i mean - so there will still be a competition there. And of course at top level the horses won't do everything perfectly - the movements are still hard so they will still have the odd wobble / loss of bal so it will be interesting to see who can be the most daring without going to far - for example my horse has a fabulous extended trot and you can push her and ask for more to go for a nine but if you ask too much she may loose balance and end up with a six or seven and then you wish you'd just let her stay in her comfort zone and got an 8 - so there is that too!!!!

I agree that there are HEAPS loads of talented horses that are not warmbloods BUT is there talent necesarily going to be in the dressage arena - there are many other things to be talented at - and then of course there is the point of if the talent does lie in the dressage arena then is it quite good enough to compete with the warmbloods, i totally agree that other horses can be good at dressage but we are talking top level and i doubt if they are that good.

 

[piaffe]

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Sorry Piaffe! I was stupidly echoeing what I had been told - obviously wrongly. Note to self not to believe everything you hear.

x

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Easily done though!

If i had even a quarter of the amount of money she has (or even one of her porches) i'd be bloody happy!

 

[lordflynn]

is it quite good enough to compete with the warmbloods, i totally agree that other horses can be good at dressage but we are talking top level and i doubt if they are that good.

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If all you see are WBs though the sport risks becoming a showing class for WBs-with all the absurdity that will go along with that.

There are other breeds more than capable of competing at that level-with correctness and expression if the judges acknowledge them!

 

[0]

but will they be AS expressive? Remember that the breeds/bloodlines regarded as 'dressage' horses have come to be regarded as that because over the years they have proved themselves to be the best at dressage - surely if other breeds were AS good then they too would have come to be known as 'dressage' horses. The breeds typicaly regarded as dressage breeds have EARNT this!!!!

 

[jackpalfreyman]

OK guys, bottom line is that naturaly expressive horses that sometimes appear a little on the edge ie. slainero will always beat the safer horses ie douglas dorsey, although one may appear more correct than the other, but at that level the judges are surely looking for the more world class horse??

And in response to thae people who shot me down when i dared to compare a warmblood to a cross bred horse, i am so so so sorry, but you are very petty! you know exactly what i meant!!

I ride a KWPN with sellefe francais/TB and dutch breeding in her, and she is alot easier to train, and does alot better in th ring than the irsih horses and tb's i have competed over the years, even though she is certainly alot less correct/established in her training, dont ask me why, but its just the way it is!

 

[lordflynn]

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- surely if other breeds were AS good then they too would have come to be known as 'dressage' horses. The breeds typicaly regarded as dressage breeds have EARNT this!!!!

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maybe-although personally I feel if there wasnt so much pro-WB bias then there wouldnt be a problem as a variety of breeds would be competed. its a vicious cycle. also, personally I think correctness should be held in higher importance-expression shouldnt be at the expense of correctness in IMPO.
I agree with you in essence (honest!) in the rest of your argument but I do feel it a shame that other breeds dont get a look in-as for expression personally I think the baroque breeds can manage it (but then I am biased too!).

 

[lordflynn]

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dont ask me why, but its just the way it is!

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ahh, but does it make it alright?

 

[Bossanova]

But why is the world class horse the flashy one?
Dressage has got lost in its way, the balance has shifted too much towards flashiness and showing off and too far from rythym, balance and softness. A tense horse is a tense horse- whether it's an ordinary horse or a GP horse with paces to die for. Why should the relaxed, supple and willing horse lose out just because the potential of it's paces is less?

I know you cant compete against the wbs on, for example, a tb but the question is why not?

 

[jackpalfreyman]

Cos tia is the bets, just admit it