Youngster playing or more sinister?

[Blondiecopper]

I've got a lovely unspoilt youngster who's kept on a livery yard. He's backed and I'm doing bits with him. Had him a few months now and I can see that he's been treated well by breeder and is a blank canvas.
he's in a routine now, next to other horses in field and stable and handled by the staff on the yard.
he's never shown any aggression towards me or any other horses for that matter. A really kind chap.
last week I turned him out as I was working that day and wouldn't have seen him that day otherwise.
when I led him to the field he 'nipped' my arm. This made me turn around to him as genuinely I was surprised. As I did his head flew back like he was reacting to something. I didn't shout or move particularly quickly to startle him.
now I've been told he's been putting his ears back in the stable pulling faces. I personally haven't seen any of this and I'm really hoping that someone isn't being horrible to him when I'm not around. I know at some point he will put the testers on me let's say but he reacted after the 'nip' like he was about to be walloped ?

 

[nagblagger]

Unfortunately i would be very suspicious that someone has 'smacked him' for that type of extreme reaction.

 

[ycbm]

I would be almost certain that he has nipped other people and been walloped, sorry .

 

[Blondiecopper]

I would be almost certain that he has nipped other people and been walloped, sorry .

Yep. Sadly I think you're right.
why do people do this ?

 

[ycbm]

Yep. Sadly I think you're right.
why do people do this ?

Well to be honest I would wallop a horse that nipped me, but you have to be absolutely spot on and super fast with the timing and I've never had a horse do it twice. Can you move him/change anything before he is damaged by it?
.

 

[mariew]

Even more so I suspect he has been smacked in the face. Biting is not acceptable, but I personally don't agree with hitting a horse on the face. Maybe you need to discuss how you want the staff to react if he bites someone so you are all on the same page?

 

[Blondiecopper]

Well to be honest I would wallop a horse that nipped me, but you have to be absolutely spot on and super fast with the timing and I've never had a horse do it twice. Can you move him/change anything before he is damaged by it?
.

I'm not sure. Moving him is pretty inconvienient at the moment. Yards are hard to come by where I live. Particularly one with facilities as good. It's not the first time I've heard of the YM being 'handy' but certainly never towards my horses (at least I thought)
I've seen it with their own horses. I suspect more likely the staff member. She keeps making up excuses about a horse in particular who has 'just freaked out' and whacked his head in his box.
oh lord. How awkward ?

 

[Blondiecopper]

Even more so I suspect he has been smacked in the face. Biting is not acceptable, but I personally don't agree with hitting a horse on the face. Maybe you need to discuss how you want the staff to react if he bites someone so you are all on the same page?

I've always used strong voice commands with my horses which has shocked them but I don't smack them. Particularly in the face. I wouldn't feel comfortable with it and would immediately regret it!

 

[Lois Lame]

[QUOTE="Greencob, post: 14777908, member: 144484" She keeps making up excuses about a horse in particular who has 'just freaked out' and whacked his head in his box.
oh lord. How awkward ?[/QUOTE]

Whacked that horse's head? That's not on. I will whack a muzzle if a horse tries to bite, and pronto, but never a head.

 

[Lois Lame]

I suspect more likely the staff member. She keeps making up excuses about a horse in particular who has 'just freaked out' and whacked his head in his box.
oh lord. How awkward ?

(I'm botching up this quoting stuff this morning.)

 

[Lois Lame]

...
when I led him to the field he 'nipped' my arm...

... I know at some point he will put the testers on me let's say but he reacted after the 'nip' like he was about to be walloped ?

Just one thing, he has already put the testers on you.

I know this 'I'm not really biting you' can be surprising. Someone's mare did this to me once, when I was walking alongside her as she carried her owner at a walk. We were talking. Mare was assessing this new person: 'how easy would she be to move from my space?' type assessing. She placed her mouth upon my forearm. Teeth were oh so gentle. I stepped a little away I think. 'Aha!' she probably thought. 'Another sucker.'

Hitting an offending muzzle of a biter might sound as bad as hitting a horse on the head, since it is part of the head. I would never hit a horse anywhere about the head other than a badly behaved muzzle.

 

[Sandstone1]

No one should be hitting your horse. They should speak to you if they are having problems. Can you have a camera in his stable?

 

[scats]

I had a horse who, if told off, would shoot to the back of the stable with his head in the air in absolute terror. He’d most certainly been hit.

 

[Blondiecopper]

No one should be hitting your horse. They should speak to you if they are having problems. Can you have a camera in his stable?

Only a covert one I'd guess.

 

[Blondiecopper]

I had a horse who, if told off, would shoot to the back of the stable with his head in the air in absolute terror. He’d most certainly been hit.

Animals can pretty much speak without being heard can't they?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think you will have to decide which is more important to you, your horse's welfare and future well-being/manners or the facilities that your yard offers.

 

[Arzada]

he's in a routine now, next to other horses in field and stable and handled by the staff on the yard.

Is he in single horse turnout?

 

[Cortez]

How are you going to stop your horse biting, out of interest?

 

[Blondiecopper]

Is he in single horse turnout?

He is. That's all they allow

 

[Blondiecopper]

How are you going to stop your horse biting, out of interest?

Well I need to ascertain a few things.
1. Is he doing it often?
2. why is he doing it?
3. is he doing it to say 'hello I'm here, pay me attention'
4. He's not in any pain
5. Is he only doing it to me?
6. Will he grow out of it?
once I can try to work these things out then I can try to teach him to respect me and that biting is not acceptable.

 

[Cortez]

Well I need to ascertain a few things.
1. Is he doing it often?
2. why is he doing it?
3. is he doing it to say 'hello I'm here, pay me attention'
4. He's not in any pain
5. Is he only doing it to me?
6. Will he grow out of it?
once I can try to work these things out then I can try to teach him to respect me and that biting is not acceptable.

Good luck. I find a swift, judicious, well-timed poke in the gob does the trick. Usually just one does the job. Biting, if not very quickly/instantly dealt with, can become extremely dangerous.

 

[Arzada]

He is. That's all they allow

With respect, and I know that it isn't easy, if you can find somewhere where he can be in a stable herd with some older horses then the other horses will largely sort the problem for you. Or even with one other. If he was kept in a herd with his breeder then he will already know his manners. He doesn't currently have an opportunity for 'play' with his own kind. We call them 'gelding games' at our place and even the 30+ yo will play with his younger best buddy, both Arabs. This definitely involves teeth but no real biting.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

With respect, and I know that it isn't easy, if you can find somewhere where he can be in a stable herd with some older horses then the other horses will largely sort the problem for you. Or even with one other. If he was kept in a herd with his breeder then he will already know his manners. He doesn't currently have an opportunity for 'play' with his own kind. We call them 'gelding games' at our place and even the 30+ yo will play with his younger best buddy, both Arabs. This definitely involves teeth but no real biting.

With respect, and I know that it isn't easy, if you can find somewhere where he can be in a stable herd with some older horses then the other horses will largely sort the problem for you. Or even with one other. If he was kept in a herd with his breeder then he will already know his manners. He doesn't currently have an opportunity for 'play' with his own kind. We call them 'gelding games' at our place and even the 30+ yo will play with his younger best buddy, both Arabs. This definitely involves teeth but no real biting.

Exactly this! Your yard might have fabulous facilities in the form of arenas, indoor schools, horse-walkers etc but it really isn't suitable for your young horse, who needs proper company to stimulate him and play with him.

IMO, he won't stay 'unspolied' for long if he stays on this yard.

 

[Sandstone1]

Good luck. I find a swift, judicious, well-timed whack in the gob does the trick. Usually just one does the job. Biting, if not very quickly/instantly dealt with, can become extremely dangerous.

Its not up to someone else to hit a horse that does not belong to them... They should speak to the owner. A horse that bites is not on, but there are other ways of stopping it rather than wacking it! Great way to make a horse head shy.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Animals can pretty much speak without being heard can't they?

^^^^ To me it is quite obvious that someone at the yard has been feeding your horse titbits and he's then nipped someone, who has then given him a belting for it.

The reaction you have described is absolutely classic for this. Your horse is "telling" you something loud and clear. It is unmistakeable!

Youngsters learn incredibly quickly: I fed mine titbits just twice in succession (two separate occasions) from my hand - the third time when I didn't have a treat she went as if to nip me. However I didn't knock the poo out of her to "punish" her for it!! There are other ways of nipping a problem in the bud. I don't feed titbits now, end of. Much easier! If you don't feed from the hand they don't come looking for it, but yours has obviously learnt this!

Sorry but I'd be moving PDQ. It isn't worth ruining a youngster, end of. The situation isn't going to get any better whilst your horse is on this yard and if/when people are feeding him and then punishing him. Perhaps kids on the yard are feeding him or something? This is what I'd be suspecting. All he is going to learn is firstly a bad habit and secondly a bad response to negative behaviour that he has been taught.

 

[twiggy2]

How old is he, how much turn out/work does he get, what feed does he get, is he on ad-lib hay?
If he is on full livery or you are paying others to do him then you need to make sure you are happy with their methods of dealing with things, for everyone saying someone else should not be correcting the horse if you leave the main care of a horse to others they will be largely responsible for discipline as the owner is not there.
When I worked with horses most of the people who paid me to do their horse did so because they were either scared of the horse or unable to deal with the horses behaviour, discipline and installing manners is mostly what I did.
It sounds to me like he potentially needs to be more stimulated ideally with more turn out and jn a group I have only ever seen a bored horse result in bad habits.

 

[Cortez]

Its not up to someone else to hit a horse that does not belong to them... They should speak to the owner. A horse that bites is not on, but there are other ways of stopping it rather than wacking it! Great way to make a horse head shy.

I've dealt with many headshy horses; none of them were my own. What would you do to reform a biter?

 

[Sandstone1]

I've dealt with many headshy horses; none of them were my own. What would you do to reform a biter?

I would give them the chance to bite on a dandy brush bristle side up while grooming or a well positioned elbow while grooming If you time it right the horse will not think its you that has done anything. A whack in the gob is only going to teach it to fear you. A well timed growl will also work as well. Violence gets violence. Dont know about you but I want my horses to respect me not fear me.

 

[paddy555]

Well I need to ascertain a few things.
1. Is he doing it often?
2. why is he doing it?
3. is he doing it to say 'hello I'm here, pay me attention'
4. He's not in any pain
5. Is he only doing it to me?
6. Will he grow out of it?
once I can try to work these things out then I can try to teach him to respect me and that biting is not acceptable.

he's a horse, he doesn't need a therapist's couch and counselling. When a horse inflicts his bad behaviour on another horse the reply comes in a couple of seconds. ie you bit me? get back and out of my space.
By the time you have psycho analysed him this bad behaviour will have become habit, that will happen very quickly and be far more difficult to stop. React to him in the same way and at the same speed as his mother would have done.

Clearly from his reaction he has bitten and been hit for it so this is not the first time.

I would be looking at why he is biting. He is young, has single turnout and is most likely trying it on. I wouldn't want the staff hitting him. I would try and solve his problem by getting him some company in the field and leaving him out as long as possible. Let him go out in a field and bite an older horse, He will soon learn what happens.

 

[Cortez]

I would give them the chance to bite on a dandy brush bristle side up while grooming or a well positioned elbow while grooming If you time it right the horse will not think its you that has done anything. A whack in the gob is only going to teach it to fear you. A well timed growl will also work as well. Violence gets violence. Dont know about you but I want my horses to respect me not fear me.

Strangely, none of my horses are afraid of me, nor are they violent. Theories are all very well, but out here in the real world it is sometimes necessary to exert the odd physical reprimand. I'm afraid that I'm not about to allow any horse to bite me, no matter who it belongs to, and I'm not going to wait for permission to reprimand it either.