Youngster playing or more sinister?

[Flowerofthefen]

Just to add to my post, what I see a lot of people do is smack their horse on the chest for biting, but then carry it on whilst shouting at the horse. So horse ends up cowering in the back of the stable. One well timed smack on the muzzle , then leave a minute, then make friends and carry on is a far better way if dealing with it. Saying from experience. I'm guessing my horse shot back as it was a complete shock that someone had corrected him!!

 

[Auslander]

I find that horses who have been reprimanded in an out of control way are the ones who react by getting head shy, not the ones who have had a swift single act of retribution carried out.
BY this, I mean that the handler has smacked once, but through pain, fear. frustration, has carried on until the horse is frightened and reacts accordingly.
I will hold my hands up and say that any horse that bites me gets a swift smack, and and I front up to them like an angry turkey. They get it, and they don't tend to bite me again - but they aren't head shy afterwards. Even my own horse, who has been head shy since before I got him, has had a smack for biting me - and he didn't react with fear. He just didn't bite me again.
I have multiple horses to handle, and have to stay safe and not let horses push me around. If a potential livery said to me that I couldn't reprimand their horse quickly and firmly for behaviour that puts me/other horses/other people at risk, I would not have that horse on my yard.
I rarely smack horses, so when I do, they know they've done something truly unacceptable

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I was leading two young welshies many years ago. Both 2 yr olds and both nice tempered animals. Out of nowhere the Section A suddenly flew forward and grabbed my arm. I spun round and purely on reflex the end of the lead rope hit him squarely on the nose. I always have a knot in the end of my lead ropes so it landed him a good one. I couldn't have done it better if I had tried. Anyway, he shot back, looked very surprised and we just carried on. I knew that pony for the rest of his long life and he never bit again. He went to a little girl I taught to ride and lived out his days with her. One well aimed smack in the right place at exactly the right moment can work wonders.

 

[Blondiecopper]

I raised this post with you late last year. I thought that I would re post as there has been a development.
last week whilst turning out a friends horse I saw one of the staff members turning out too. Not her own horse but one that belongs to a lovely livery. I'd witnessed an incident prior to the horses going out where this certain staff member had an issue putting oil on the horses feet. She had pulled back and got upset as the girl was being pretty rough with her. She's not the type of mare you can do this with as she's quite sensitive. Needless to say the mare was then upset. Instead of being calm the staff member proceeded to be angry and cross about the whole situation. I was stood in a nearby stable and saw her and then intervened by trying to calm it all.
so, going back to the turn out the mare pulled for the grass, nothing malicious she didn't drag the staff member but I heard staff member shout and proceed to hit her in the face with her lead rope.
All of my questions from earlier in this thread were answered there and then. I was gobsmacked. I'm sorry but I do not think that ever hitting a horse in the face is acceptable behaviour. Especially when you are getting paid to handle horses that belong to other people.
needless to say I am leaving at the end of the month.
I could see it being justified if you are under threat from a horses teeth to protect yourself but to swing a lead rope across her face to me is abuse.

 

[Winters100]

I'm afraid that I'm not about to allow any horse to bite me, no matter who it belongs to, and I'm not going to wait for permission to reprimand it either.

100% agree. If any of mine bit me they would get a wallop. If they bit someone else I would expect them to receive the same. What is the poor person handling the horse supposed to do? Tell the horse 'wait until I tell your Mother about this'? Horses occasionally need a physical correction, neglecting this can cause dangerous behavior.

 

[nagblagger]

Have you told the horse owner what you saw? If it was mine I would want to know so I could take appropriate action.

 

[Blondiecopper]

100% agree. If any of mine bit me they would get a wallop. If they bit someone else I would expect them to receive the same. What is the poor person handling the horse supposed to do? Tell the horse 'wait until I tell your Mother about this'? Horses occasionally need a physical correction, neglecting this can cause dangerous behavior.

On this occasion the handler hit the horse in the face for pulling for the grass. Not biting anyone. My horse hasn't used his teeth on anyone. He's mouthed me or had in the past but he is 3 years old. It's more for attention and he's stopped it now anyway. The issue here is the handler, most of the time she's got her head in her mobile phone leading horses so doesn't pay any attention or cannot pre empt any behaviour. It always catches her out because she's not concentrating. I do agree that if a horse threatens you or goes to bite you can stop this with a sharp reminder but losing your head because the horse has pulled for grass in my opinion is not the way to behave.

 

[Blondiecopper]

Have you told the horse owner what you saw? If it was mine I would want to know so I could take appropriate action.

Not yet no but I will address the YM before I leave.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Not yet no but I will address the YM before I leave.

Tbh I think the really good thing about this is that you are finally addressing the problem of unsuitable turnout for your youngster. I have no idea why you left him there all this time, as you were suspicious of the staff's handling of your horse. You certainly should tell the other horse's owner what you have witnessed.

 

[Blondiecopper]

Tbh I think the really good thing about this is that you are finally addressing the problem of unsuitable turnout for your youngster. I have no idea why you left him there all this time, as you were suspicious of the staff's handling of your horse. You certainly should tell the other horse's owner what you have witnessed.

I had another horse there who was much older with various issues who was really happy there.
I lost him last week so I am able to move now.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am sorry about your loss but I would have moved the youngster months ago, even if I trusted the yard with my older horse, which is doubtful.

 

[Blondiecopper]

I am sorry about your loss but I would have moved the youngster months ago, even if I trusted the yard with my older horse, which is doubtful.

Having two horses on two different yards, working full time and with 2 children wouldn't work for me I'm afraid.
Thanks for your condolences.

 

[Widgeon]

Having two horses on two different yards, working full time and with 2 children wouldn't work for me I'm afraid.
Thanks for your condolences.

Sorry to hear you've been having a hard time. I sympathise, so much of having horses involves weighing up compromises, particularly when you have a job and family too (it certainly does for me). This staff member sounds like a fairly unpleasant and short tempered individual but I suppose at least now you know for sure what's been going on. Good luck finding a more suitable yard (with nicer and more sensible staff!)

 

[Arzada]

Not yet no but I will address the YM before I leave.

In that case, in preparation for addressing the YM, I'd have my phone handy ready to record whenever I was up there from now until I leave.

 

[ponynutz]

No-one should be hitting your horse as correction without talking to you.
And no-one should be hitting a horse hard enough to constitute that reaction - a small tap on bonier part of the nose and a stern voice is enough to say 'I don't like that behaviour' in a way they understand.

 

[Birker2020]

I would give them the chance to bite on a dandy brush bristle side up while grooming or a well positioned elbow while grooming If you time it right the horse will not think its you that has done anything. A whack in the gob is only going to teach it to fear you. A well timed growl will also work as well. Violence gets violence. Dont know about you but I want my horses to respect me not fear me.

I found that using the bristle end of the hoof pick well timed, worked very well with my horse, who then learnt almost immediately that 'hedgehog' would strike again should he nip.

Greencob, so sorry for your loss.

 

[ponynutz]

I had another horse there who was much older with various issues who was really happy there.
I lost him last week so I am able to move now.

So sorry for your loss x

 

[Blondiecopper]

No-one should be hitting your horse as correction without talking to you.
And no-one should be hitting a horse hard enough to constitute that reaction - a small tap on bonier part of the nose and a stern voice is enough to say 'I don't like that behaviour' in a way they understand.

Completely.
my problem with 'allowing others to reprimand your horse' is that where does it stop?
im not prepared for someone's lack of concentration or incompetence to cause my horse to become head shy. It's a very difficult problem to overcome requiring years of trust building.

 

[Widgeon]

Completely.
my problem with 'allowing others to reprimand your horse' is that where does it stop?
im not prepared for someone's lack of concentration or incompetence to cause my horse to become head shy. It's a very difficult problem to overcome requiring years of trust building.

My totally steady, sensible 13 year old cob is a bit head shy. It's so entirely out of character with the rest of his behavior. I have a couple of ideas of where it may have started, but he's been with me two years and it's still very much there. He's completely safe and easy to do everything with, but when I'm handling him on the ground he sometimes he reacts as if he's going to get walloped round the head and it makes me so sad.

 

[ponynutz]

Completely.
my problem with 'allowing others to reprimand your horse' is that where does it stop?
im not prepared for someone's lack of concentration or incompetence to cause my horse to become head shy. It's a very difficult problem to overcome requiring years of trust building.

Agreed. You give the green light for a small tap and people like that can run away with it.

I think you've done the right thing and should be proud of yourself for taking yourself away from a long-term situation, especially as you said you'd had another horse here too.

 

[paddy555]

100% agree. If any of mine bit me they would get a wallop. If they bit someone else I would expect them to receive the same. What is the poor person handling the horse supposed to do? Tell the horse 'wait until I tell your Mother about this'? Horses occasionally need a physical correction, neglecting this can cause dangerous behavior.

It does appear though now we know that the horse didn't bite but ate grass due to the handler's lack of attention. I can't see a reason to reprimand the horse for that. Possibly training for the hander would be better

Greencob, I'm sorry about your loss.

 

[Blondiecopper]

My totally steady, sensible 13 year old cob is a bit head shy. It's so entirely out of character with the rest of his behavior. I have a couple of ideas of where it may have started, but he's been with me two years and it's still very much there. He's completely safe and easy to do everything with, but when I'm handling him on the ground he sometimes he reacts as if he's going to get walloped round the head and it makes me so sad.

Horses in the wrong hands can take years of correction and trust when they finally get to a decent owner.

 

[Goldenstar]

I give a horse that nips a swift smack .
I don’t think it’s a given he’s been hit by someone it’s how he would react to a senior horse if he nipped them .
Young horses do sometimes go through a nippy stage you just need a plan to handle it .

 

[Shilasdair]

If a horse goes to bite me, I slap it across the muzzle. It's never happened twice, nor are they headshy. Horses are not stupid - they know why they got a slap, and how to avoid it.

If my horses bit anyone handling them, I'd be so ashamed that I hadn't trained them sufficiently, I'd be buying the groom/handler an apology bottle of wine.

Grooms and yard staff are NOT chew toys for your rude and spoilt horses.

 

[GSD Woman]

Greencob,

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[Red-1]

I give a horse that nips a swift smack .
I don’t think it’s a given he’s been hit by someone it’s how he would react to a senior horse if he nipped them .
Young horses do sometimes go through a nippy stage you just need a plan to handle it .

I agree with this. Last month, I took baby horse to camp. He has never been head-shy, he had never given me a reason to smack him.

After the evening meal, when everyone had partaken of a drink or two, everyone went to the stables to tuck the horses up for the night. It was quite rowdy, I was uncomfortable with that whilst I was doing mine but he isn't a bother so we just got on with it.

As I was faffing outside the stable, his head over the door, someone came up telling me how lovely my horse was, flinging their arms into the air. Poor horse was startled at the tipsy woman, flung his head up and bashed it on the door.

Her immediate reaction? "Ah, poor horse, someone has been hitting him!"

Nope, he has never been head shy! It was just her, being insensitive with a horse who normally lives in a calm and quiet atmosphere.

If a horse bit me, I would expect it to fling itself backwards. For a start, I would jump and shout out in pain.

BTW, I would also sweep my arm sideways, and if a muzzle was in the way, it would feel my hand. Biting is dangerous. Chasing the horse backwards is not the same though, if you have to do that, you missed the moment.

Sorry for your loss Greencob. I am glad you will now be able to find a better yard.

 

[Leandy]

To all those saying it is not up to others to chastise your horse or similar, I would be angry if my horse was not promptly and appropriately chastised by yard staff for nipping. Horses need consistent boundaries so everyone handling needs to enforce those, promptly and appropriately. I once told off a member of livery yard staff (a young girl who knew no better) for letting my youngster tow her around on a lead rope whilst she chatted to her friends and ignored my horse's behaviour. I didn't want my youngster to learn that it is acceptable to be rude and I expect the yard staff to have enough horse sense not to allow it. The same would go for nipping. It is up to everyone handling a horse to ensure its continued good manners, not just the owner.

 

[GSD Woman]

Getting younger people to get off of their phones and pay attention to their job can be tough. I've worked with some that ignored their patients because they were too busy looking at the phones. It's bad enough when they're working with horses but horrible if they are letting the horses develop bad habits.

 

[ponynutz]

Getting younger people to get off of their phones and pay attention to their job can be tough. I've worked with some that ignored their patients because they were too busy looking at the phones. It's bad enough when they're working with horses but horrible if they are letting the horses develop bad habits.

I don't think it's very fair to single out one group that hasn't even been mentioned in this discussion.

Also (addressed to whole thread), agree a horse shouldn't go unreprimanded if it's becoming a danger but there are other ways to deal with it in the immediate and then after the event can have a chat with owner to see how they'd like behaviour to be corrected.

 

[Blondiecopper]

To all those saying it is not up to others to chastise your horse or similar, I would be angry if my horse was not promptly and appropriately chastised by yard staff for nipping. Horses need consistent boundaries so everyone handling needs to enforce those, promptly and appropriately. I once told off a member of livery yard staff (a young girl who knew no better) for letting my youngster tow her around on a lead rope whilst she chatted to her friends and ignored my horse's behaviour. I didn't want my youngster to learn that it is acceptable to be rude and I expect the yard staff to have enough horse sense not to allow it. The same would go for nipping. It is up to everyone handling a horse to ensure its continued good manners, not just the owner.

The update relates to a member of staff hitting a horse across the face with its lead rope for pulling at the grass. I don't care what you might do for training a horse not to bite but that behaviour is unacceptable and abusive.