Your thoughts on the HOYS hunter class dispute?

[Spider65]

No, I most certainly did not think the properly attired dressage riders in top hats looked anything other than normal, elegant dressage riders. Realistically, how likely were any of these riders to need head protection? Trying to force your own standards of over-the-top H&S political correctness on competitors who are more than capable of assessing their own safety requirements is nothing short of bullying. Let people make their own choices please.

Oh dear, it really does not matter how good a rider you are, anyone can fall and sustain a head injury. I consider people who ride without hats on the same level as smokers and alcoholics, selfish and happy to let the NHS pick up the pieces at vast expense. However by all means it is a free country so do as you please.

 

[LaMooch]

No, I most certainly did not think the properly attired dressage riders in top hats looked anything other than normal, elegant dressage riders. Realistically, how likely were any of these riders to need head protection? Trying to force your own standards of over-the-top H&S political correctness on competitors who are more than capable of assessing their own safety requirements is nothing short of bullying. Let people make their own choices please.

Fair enough people can assess their own safety requirements but end the day you riding a horse and a horse can be unpredictable so the risk will always be their.

 

[moodymare1987]

Well I would always choose to wear a hat with a strap myself but I can understand why they want to make the rule change. Anything different will kick up a fuss but before long it will be standard everywhere. But From what I read on hoys website anyone that has already registered with shbgb with sole aim of contesting the hoys qualifiers is to contact the hoys office. So who knows if you registered already maybe they have some other option for you guys so not all at a loss.

 

[Moomin1]

Well, I don't have a smoke alarm or a fire alarm either; living dangerously, me. I live in a country that is perhaps not as H&S obsessed as the UK. I have ridden without a riding helmet for 50-ish years and I will undoubtedly continue to do so unless required by competition or venue rules. It is my choice and I make it freely. If you wish to wear a helmet then by all means feel free also - won't object, but please leave people who don't wish to alone.

Like I say - personal preference if someone wants to be so stupid as to risk their own life and not wear one, but it should not be permitted at competitions where at the end of the day examples should be set.

You wouldn't (hopefully) walk into a school and light up a cigarette infront of hundreds of kids, because it's promoting something which is potentially fatal to health. So people should not be allowed to ride at large events with no hat, infront of tv cameras etc etc and impressionable young people/kids.

You don't see any Olympic competitors in the cycling events/equestrian events without hats. It wouldn't be allowed. No different for HOYS IMO.

 

[LaMooch]

Like I say - personal preference if someone wants to be so stupid as to risk their own life and not wear one, but it should not be permitted at competitions where at the end of the day examples should be set.

You wouldn't (hopefully) walk into a school and light up a cigarette infront of hundreds of kids, because it's promoting something which is potentially fatal to health. So people should not be allowed to ride at large events with no hat, infront of tv cameras etc etc and impressionable young people/kids.

You don't see any Olympic competitors in the cycling events/equestrian events without hats. It wouldn't be allowed. No different for HOYS IMO.

Fully agree with this. Well put

 

[mil1212]

No, I most certainly did not think the properly attired dressage riders in top hats looked anything other than normal, elegant dressage riders. Realistically, how likely were any of these riders to need head protection? Trying to force your own standards of over-the-top H&S political correctness on competitors who are more than capable of assessing their own safety requirements is nothing short of bullying. Let people make their own choices please.

How likely - well Simon Charlesworth, the rider of the hack champion fell off last year in the supreme horse championship. Not horses fault, the saddle slipped, but his topper came off and he had cut his head, could have been a lot worse. I have seen several falls at hoys, its an electric place for the best horse.

I definitely believe in freedom of choice and have worn a beagler myself for showing, however its a fairly bizarre decision to change association affiliations just so they can have their way. Be, BD and BSPA have all changed so why not HOYS

 

[undergroundoli]

I don't think we are very good at assessing risk in the UK and err on the side of excessive caution.

Cycling in London is a good example of this, recently something like 9 cyclists were killed in a fortnight or so and everyone went completely hysterical, even though the total numbers killed that year remained the same as the previous years (14). Depending on how you calculate the total amount of time Londoners spend walking and cycling the later is actually safer, but loads of people gave up commuting by bike.

I'd be interested to see a study into how successful hats are at preventing damage, I've seen lots for cycle helmets that suggest they are pretty much useless for anyone going faster than 3 miles an hour (obviously riding hats are sturdier, have stronger standards and protect from different impacts). I'm also interested in how much confidence people take from having a hat on.

I think your head, your choice, no one penalised for wearing a hat simples.

 

[Mithras]

I'd be interested to see a study into how successful hats are at preventing damage, I've seen lots for cycle helmets that suggest they are pretty much useless for anyone going faster than 3 miles an hour (obviously riding hats are sturdier, have stronger standards and protect from different impacts). I'm also interested in how much confidence people take from having a hat on.

In mountain biking, a lot of serious life changing neck injuries are caused by the backs of helmets impacting against the neck/top of the spine. Helmets have been redesigned to take this into account, but since they need to have backs to protect the top of the head, if the head snaps back on impact then there is always going to be the risk of injury from the helmet.

This doesn't seem such an issue in equestrian sport, and obviously the helmets are heavier and do more good than cycling helmets, but I always find it such a blinkered view that all that is necessary to protect you from harm in any sport is to wear a helmet. As if it were that simple!

 

[Moomin1]

In mountain biking, a lot of serious life changing neck injuries are caused by the backs of helmets impacting against the neck/top of the spine. Helmets have been redesigned to take this into account, but since they need to have backs to protect the top of the head, if the head snaps back on impact then there is always going to be the risk of injury from the helmet.

This doesn't seem such an issue in equestrian sport, and obviously the helmets are heavier and do more good than cycling helmets, but I always find it such a blinkered view that all that is necessary to protect you from harm in any sport is to wear a helmet. As if it were that simple!

I think someone would have to be seriously lacking in intelligence to believe that a hat will prevent you from all harm. Just like a seatbelt won't prevent you from dying in some car accidents.

But we wouldn't promote not wearing seatbelts at large car events, so why should it be any different for equestrianism?

 

[Mithras]

I think someone would have to be seriously lacking in intelligence to believe that a hat will prevent you from all harm. Just like a seatbelt won't prevent you from dying in some car accidents.

But we wouldn't promote not wearing seatbelts at large car events, so why should it be any different for equestrianism?

Tradition? I don't really care either way. I don't think theres a great history of serious accidents in showing classes involving head injuries, is there? When considering the number of competitors?

Its not as if we wear helmets for all activities. You could probably make an argument for wearing helmets in cars, or busses, or out walking in the hills - my sister in law even managed to slip on wet leaves and get concussion. Or all grooms at all shows should wear hard hats with chinstraps at all times, plus body protectors, as they're probably at quite high risk of being kicked or squashed.

That's the trouble with going risk assessment mad and risk averse. Where do you draw the line? Why one activity and not another? It can actually operate negatively if someone is minded to sue for personal injuries or loss, because it can raise the standard of care so high that you could build a case around all sorts of precautions being taken.

 

[Cortez]

In mountain biking, a lot of serious life changing neck injuries are caused by the backs of helmets impacting against the neck/top of the spine. Helmets have been redesigned to take this into account, but since they need to have backs to protect the top of the head, if the head snaps back on impact then there is always going to be the risk of injury from the helmet.

This doesn't seem such an issue in equestrian sport, and obviously the helmets are heavier and do more good than cycling helmets, but I always find it such a blinkered view that all that is necessary to protect you from harm in any sport is to wear a helmet. As if it were that simple!

Ah, a thinking reply. I used to have a very good, very safety conscious friend in the 1980's. She always wore a current safety standard riding helmet, in those days it was one with a harness and a rigid peak. She fell off and landed face down on the road; the peak of her hat caused her neck to snap and she was killed. A hat does not guarantee safety.

 

[Moomin1]

Tradition? I don't really care either way. I don't think theres a great history of serious accidents in showing classes involving head injuries, is there? When considering the number of competitors?

Its not as if we wear helmets for all activities. You could probably make an argument for wearing helmets in cars, or busses, or out walking in the hills - my sister in law even managed to slip on wet leaves and get concussion. Or all grooms at all shows should wear hard hats with chinstraps at all times, plus body protectors, as they're probably at quite high risk of being kicked or squashed.

That's the trouble with going risk assessment mad and risk averse. Where do you draw the line? Why one activity and not another? It can actually operate negatively if someone is minded to sue for personal injuries or loss, because it can raise the standard of care so high that you could build a case around all sorts of precautions being taken.

True, but would you allow someone to tell your child (theoretical obviously - I don't know if you have kids!), that it's 'not necessary' to wear a hat out riding in any circumstance?

If not, then it's IMO not acceptable either for large equestrian events, widely publicised, to be condoning it either.

 

[Moomin1]

Ah, a thinking reply. I used to have a very good, very safety conscious friend in the 1980's. She always wore a current safety standard riding helmet, in those days it was one with a harness and a rigid peak. She fell off and landed face down on the road; the peak of her hat caused her neck to snap and she was killed. A hat does not guarantee safety.

Which is why the changed the peaks on hats.

As I said before, a seatbelt in a car doesn't guarantee safety. Not smoking doesn't guarantee never getting cancer. But (again, hopefully), most sensible people would not find it acceptable to condone or promote not wearing a seatbelt, or taking up smoking.

I have no issues if individuals want to take the risk of not wearing a hat. Their life (well, that and the lives of their loved ones too, but hey), but at the end of the day we should not be promoting or condoning it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Ah, a thinking reply. I used to have a very good, very safety conscious friend in the 1980's. She always wore a current safety standard riding helmet, in those days it was one with a harness and a rigid peak. She fell off and landed face down on the road; the peak of her hat caused her neck to snap and she was killed. A hat does not guarantee safety.

Very sorry to hear what happened to your friend. Unfortunately, hats with a fixed peak were found to cause just such an injury as your friend suffered, and were superseded by flexible peaks years ago.

No hat can prevent every injury, and the safety standards are regularly reviewed and upgraded if necessary in the light of new evidence.

 

[undergroundoli]

True, but would you allow someone to tell your child (theoretical obviously - I don't know if you have kids!), that it's 'not necessary' to wear a hat out riding in any circumstance?

I like to think I'd bring my kids up to understand that adults have a duty to evaluate what they are doing and the risks involved in it.

I've got loads of climbing friends who will back off moves they know can't be properly protected unless they have a 'psychological belay.' Placing undue faith in equipment, or not understanding what it is and is not designed to protect one from is pretty common IME.

Sorry about your friend Cortez, that is just awful.

 

[Cortez]

Very sorry to hear what happened to your friend. Unfortunately, hats with a fixed peak were found to cause just such an injury as your friend suffered, and were superseded by flexible peaks years ago.

No hat can prevent every injury, and the safety standards are regularly reviewed and upgraded if necessary in the light of new evidence.

How many people go out riding wearing their safety helmets believing that it will save them from injury? Most, I should imagine: I know my friend did, and ultimately it is what killed her; if she had not been wearing that hat she would not have died. I'm not blaming the hat so much as I am the blind belief that not wearing one is bad/stupid/irresponsible/etc., and wearing one is the only thing that makes riding safe. I would imagine that every standard of riding hat has been produced to be the safest that it could be at that time, including the papier maché hunt caps of many years ago, which frankly were no more use than cardboard - we "had" to wear those too at Pony Club rallies; were we "safe"? Riding is not safe, I know that and accept the risk every time I go near a horse.

 

[Goldenstar]

Riding is never safe .
But the biggest thing you can do to be safe is to ride well ,have a solid position and invest time money and physical effort in aquiring it. I see people hacking out with every single conceivable safety thing except a strong position if the horse did any thing untoward they would be a best a passenger at worse lying on the road .

 

[Tiddlypom]

Riding is never safe .
But the biggest thing you can do to be safe is to ride well ,have a solid position and invest time money and physical effort in aquiring it.

Agree with this 100% GS. But I would still wear a hat just in case....!

 

[Cortez]

Riding is never safe .
But the biggest thing you can do to be safe is to ride well ,have a solid position and invest time money and physical effort in aquiring it. I see people hacking out with every single conceivable safety thing except a strong position if the horse did any thing untoward they would be a best a passenger at worse lying on the road .

I actually deleted exactly that ^^ from the end of my post and cannot agree more. Will being a better rider save you from injury? Not if you get bucked off, but it will certainly reduce the likelihood of being bucked off in the first place. I am not, at all, opposed to the wearing of safety helmets; I am against them being made compulsory, mostly because they do not make you a better rider nor do they make you immune. If you want to wear helmets do so; I do not in the normal run of things wish to do so.

 

[Moomin1]

I like to think I'd bring my kids up to understand that adults have a duty to evaluate what they are doing and the risks involved in it.

I've got loads of climbing friends who will back off moves they know can't be properly protected unless they have a 'psychological belay.' Placing undue faith in equipment, or not understanding what it is and is not designed to protect one from is pretty common IME.

Sorry about your friend Cortez, that is just awful.

Unfortunately, we all know that kids don't think like that. Which is why they tend to do things they see as 'cool', when in reality they are very dangerous.

 

[LaMooch]

Riding is never safe .
But the biggest thing you can do to be safe is to ride well ,have a solid position and invest time money and physical effort in aquiring it. I see people hacking out with every single conceivable safety thing except a strong position if the horse did any thing untoward they would be a best a passenger at worse lying on the road .

Agree with this but would also would still wear a hat

 

[Goldenstar]

Agree with this 100% GS. But I would still wear a hat just in case....!

Oh I am a hat wearer MrGS make me promise , except about twice a year on a lovely day I go in the school and enjoy a bare headed ride , fantasic .

 

[Moomin1]

I actually deleted exactly that ^^ from the end of my post and cannot agree more. Will being a better rider save you from injury? Not if you get bucked off, but it will certainly reduce the likelihood of being bucked off in the first place. I am not, at all, opposed to the wearing of safety helmets; I am against them being made compulsory, mostly because they do not make you a better rider nor do they make you immune. If you want to wear helmets do so; I do not in the normal run of things wish to do so.

What has wearing a hat not making you a better rider got to do with them being compulsory at large events? Of course they don't make you a better rider. Like seatbelts don't make you a better driver.

The point of making them compulsory is to do with being as safe AS POSSIBLE and promoting this.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Oh I am a hat wearer MrGS make me promise , except about twice a year on a lovely day I go in the school and enjoy a bare headed ride , fantasic .

You rebel! Is this when Mr GS is away for the day ?

 

[Cortez]

What has wearing a hat not making you a better rider got to do with them being compulsory at large events? Of course they don't make you a better rider. Like seatbelts don't make you a better driver.

The point of making them compulsory is to do with being as safe AS POSSIBLE and promoting this.

Being as safe as possible means being as safe a rider as possible, and some of the safest riders I know do not wear hats. Likewise some of the most unsafe do wear them (very wisely, but I wish they made as much effort to improve their riding). Forcing everybody to conform to the "you are only safe if you wear a hat, and are automatically unsafe if you do not" mindset is over the top and antagonistic.

 

[Goldenstar]

You rebel! Is this when Mr GS is away for the day ?

Of course

 

[Holding]

Not sure I understand the arguments against wearing a hat - what exactly are the cons? The modern styles are comfortable, lightweight, take ten seconds to put on and make no difference to you at all, except possibly saving your life in an accident. Possibly not, but it isn't like there are any negatives to weigh up. Surely it's just common sense? I have ridden without a hat on the occasions when one wasn't available, but when it is... why wouldn't you?

 

[Moomin1]

Being as safe as possible means being as safe a rider as possible, and some of the safest riders I know do not wear hats. Likewise some of the most unsafe do wear them (very wisely, but I wish they made as much effort to improve their riding). Forcing everybody to conform to the "you are only safe if you wear a hat, and are automatically unsafe if you do not" mindset is over the top and antagonistic.

Or maybe it's better to promote the wearing of a hat at all times, and improve riding.

You seem to be making some connection with not wearing a hat and becoming a better rider?

 

[Cortez]

Not sure I understand the arguments against wearing a hat - what exactly are the cons? The modern styles are comfortable, lightweight, take ten seconds to put on and make no difference to you at all, except possibly saving your life in an accident. Possibly not, but it isn't like there are any negatives to weigh up. Surely it's just common sense? I have ridden without a hat on the occasions when one wasn't available, but when it is... why wouldn't you?

Because I don't wish to. Nor do I wish to wear one when skiing (also dangerous), dirt biking (likewise), or bicycling. This is my choice, I accept the risks of so doing and find the constant bleating of the risk-averse tantamount to bullying. The arguments for wearing head protection are all valid, if I should land on my head, but this is a sufficiently unlikely event to make me happy to forgo the undoubted benefits. I have not fallen off in 14 years, I accept that I could do so tomorrow morning, but it is unlikely enough for me to not worry about it.

 

[Moomin1]

Because I don't wish to. Nor do I wish to wear one when skiing (also dangerous), dirt biking (likewise), or bicycling. This is my choice, I accept the risks of so doing and find the constant bleating of the risk-averse tantamount to bullying. The arguments for wearing head protection are all valid, if I should land on my head, but this is a sufficiently unlikely event to make me happy to forgo the undoubted benefits. I have not fallen off in 14 years, I accept that I could do so tomorrow morning, but it is unlikely enough for me to not worry about it.

And that is fine. I don't care whether you fall off and injure your head. That's your problem. But you should, if you enter major competitions (or any IMO) be a responsible example and wear a hat, so that kids and teenagers do not think it's ok not to.

Many people feel it inappropriate to get slaughtered on drink and drugs infront of kids, or not wear a seatbelt infront of kids, or swear even infront of kids - so how is it ok for competitors at a major competition, watched by thousands of kids, to not wear a hat?