Your thoughts on the HOYS hunter class dispute?

Moomin1 said:
Or maybe it's better to promote the wearing of a hat at all times, and improve riding.

You seem to be making some connection with not wearing a hat and becoming a better rider?
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Point A. I would prefer to let people make up their own minds, whilst becoming better riders.

Point B. No, I'm not. Plenty of bad riders don't wear hats either.
 
Do you know anybody that has suffered a head injury ?
Our friends daughter 26 riding in africa with her boyfriend, been riding all her life through pony club etc. fell jumping a 1foot 6 log. Her life as she knew it is over. she was a teacher, she wanted to start a school for the children out there. She is now incontinent, in a wheelchair with limited speech . Boyfriend long gone. Parents happy retirement finished as they are now full time carers.
I want my kids to see wearing a hat as natural as putting on a seatbelt (which they do !!)
I do not want to see my kids life ruined for having the wind in their hair .
I do not expect a hat or a seatbelt to save them from everything but I hope for their sake they take as few risks as possible with their future .
When we go abroad they take their hats if they might have an opportunity to ride .
 
maree t said:
Do you know anybody that has suffered a head injury ?
Our friends daughter 26 riding in africa with her boyfriend, been riding all her life through pony club etc. fell jumping a 1foot 6 log. Her life as she knew it is over. she was a teacher, she wanted to start a school for the children out there. She is now incontinent, in a wheelchair with limited speech . Boyfriend long gone. Parents happy retirement finished as they are now full time carers.
I want my kids to see wearing a hat as natural as putting on a seatbelt (which they do !!)
I do not want to see my kids life ruined for having the wind in their hair .
I do not expect a hat or a seatbelt to save them from everything but I hope for their sake they take as few risks as possible with their future .
When we go abroad they take their hats if they might have an opportunity to ride .
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My best friend at uni suffered a terrible fall - she WAS wearing an up to standard hat, and is very experienced. The fall she had shattered the hat in half, and she fractured her skull and suffered a brain injury, which thankfully resolved eventually. But she lost all sense of taste and smell, was cross eyed, and puked on every drink she had for a long long time. If she hadn't have been wearing that hat, there is no doubt, as the docs said, she would be dead.
 
I am amazed that it is not already compulsory, remember all the hoo haa about Charlotte Dujardain wearing a helmet at 2012? Where did she get placed again? ;)

If you can do anything to increase your safety then I say do it, even if it makes you look different or 'uncool' You've only got one head, do what you can to look after it! Horseriding is a high risk hobby/sport, why wouldn't you take measures to protect your head!!??
 
Moomin1 said:
And that is fine. I don't care whether you fall off and injure your head. That's your problem. But you should, if you enter major competitions (or any IMO) be a responsible example and wear a hat, so that kids and teenagers do not think it's ok not to.

Many people feel it inappropriate to get slaughtered on drink and drugs infront of kids, or not wear a seatbelt infront of kids, or swear even infront of kids - so how is it ok for competitors at a major competition, watched by thousands of kids, to not wear a hat?
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And plenty of people have no problem whatsoever behaving like complete prats in front of eveyone. I don't feel the slightest obligation to "set an example" to kids, they see plenty of awful things that nobody has any control over whatsoever, it's up to parents to give their children the brains to work out what's right or wrong. I'm certainly not going to live my life influenced by what sort of an image I'm giving to the younger generation.

See, neither side of this argument is going to influence the other so it's really pointless to try. I have no problem with people wanting to wear a hat or whatever (well, I'm not keen on high heels, but each to their own). What I do not like is people demanding that everyone has to wear a hat for their own good, or for the impressionable youth, or to save the NHS money (not applicable in my case, BTW), or whatever.
 
Cortez said:
And plenty of people have no problem whatsoever behaving like complete prats in front of eveyone. I don't feel the slightest obligation to "set an example" to kids, they see plenty of awful things that nobody has any control over whatsoever, it's up to parents to give their children the brains to work out what's right or wrong. I'm certainly not going to live my life influenced by what sort of an image I'm giving to the younger generation.

See, neither side of this argument is going to influence the other so it's really pointless to try. I have no problem with people wanting to wear a hat or whatever (well, I'm not keen on high heels, but each to their own). What I do not like is people demanding that everyone has to wear a hat for their own good, or for the impressionable youth, or to save the NHS money (not applicable in my case, BTW), or whatever.
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Of course kids see plenty of things people have no control over. However, as a society, it's our duty as adults to TRY and make a good example.

Clearly you are not one of those people....
 
As people have already highlighted in this thread - the decisions to make safety hats a rule was an insurance decision, because insurance companies like to play god.

I got fed up a few years ago when GYS imposed safety hats for all, including ladies hunter (which IMO looks odd) and yet allowed the hunt parade to wear beaglers - presumably because it is a crowd pleaser and quite how you would convince hunts to parade in safety hats was a head scratcher.

I just think some things should be a personal choice. If you are old enough to own a horse, pay your SHB membership and travel to events, you are old enough to make a decision on what to wear on your head.
 
Moomin1 said:
Of course kids see plenty of things people have no control over. However, as a society, it's our duty as adults to TRY and make a good example.

Clearly you are not one of those people....
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No it's not it our duty as adults to teach children to risk assess and part of that is them seeing a range do people doing a range if things .
Compulsion I hate compulsion .
 
Whilst I personally wouldn't get on a horse without a hat I do see where you're coming from Cortez and I do agree to some extent.

There's a risk of seeing hats as some kind of voodoo magic that protect you from harm no matter how badly you ride and how stupidly you behave. The reality is that a hat will not save you in every situation and it is best to avoid getting into a situation where you are relying on the hat to save you. In otherwords, as Cortez says, there needs to be more emphasis on good basic riding skills - a good seat, the ability to manage a wound up horse.

It's worth mentioning experiences in Australia here. After cycle helmets were made compulsory the number of journeys made by bike declined but the rate of injuries to cyclists increased http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/9/4/380.full
 
I personally think its brattish behaviour akin to a child throwing its toys out of a pram. Yes in general it's your head your choice, but in reality, when you step into a show it's your head, their rules. People should respect that, but then I also think they shouldn't be so stupid and reckless with their lives.
 
RunToEarth said:
As people have already highlighted in this thread - the decisions to make safety hats a rule was an insurance decision, because insurance companies like to play god.

I got fed up a few years ago when GYS imposed safety hats for all, including ladies hunter (which IMO looks odd) and yet allowed the hunt parade to wear beaglers - presumably because it is a crowd pleaser and quite how you would convince hunts to parade in safety hats was a head scratcher.

I just think some things should be a personal choice. If you are old enough to own a horse, pay your SHB membership and travel to events, you are old enough to make a decision on what to wear on your head.
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Yes I agree RTE. But not when you are competing in a major event. It's like anything isn't it - people look at celebs and fashions/fads. We should be setting examples. What people do in their own time is up to them - no problem with that. But like anything else in life, anybody in the public eye should be setting a uniform example of safety.
 
Goldenstar said:
No it's not it our duty as adults to teach children to risk assess and part of that is them seeing a range do people doing a range if things .
Compulsion I hate compulsion .
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Yes, it is our duty to teach kids to risk assess.

Getting on any horse, in any circumstance, is dangerous.

Therefore, wear a hat.

Simple risk assessment.
 
The problem is the impact on other people, do you have insurance that will cover somebody taking care of you 24 hours a day if you do hurt yourself. My daughter had a pony on trial and he has reared up and cracked her hat. IF she hadnt had it on who knows. You have to consider a wider picture when putting yourself at more risk than necessary .
S@@t happens but who gets to live with the what ifs .
Perhaps working at the RDA makes me more sensitive to the aftermath .
Yes I think it should be compulsory in all disciplines at all times .
 
Moomin1 said:
Adults should be responsible. They should portray a responsible behaviour in the public eye.

Suppose everyone has different morals......
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Get off your high horse Moomin .
Compelling people to do things is deeply unpleasant .
Parents should be able to sell safety to their children including explaining that people who take opposing views .
I don't see why Cortez should be compelled to live her life doing something she dislikes .
 
I agree that as adults we should set an example but at end of the day is up to parents to teach their children right from wrong and when someone does wrong explain what they done wrong and why its wrong.

I still do not agree what HOYS has done and at public events/places riders should wear the correct headwear. At home its up to you
 
This is like the Primary School playground, I honestly can't believe that people are bickering over wearing a hat! FFS people get a grip, this a dangerous hobby occupation sport whatever, why are some people SO anti hat??
 
Goldenstar said:
Get off your high horse Moomin .
Compelling people to do things is deeply unpleasant .
Parents should be able to sell safety to their children including explaining that people who take opposing views .
I don't see why Cortez should be compelled to live her life doing something she dislikes .
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Not sure why the hostility. I am merely putting my views and opinions across.

Anyway, I have no problem with Cortez doing what she wants, or anyone.

Just wondering, would you be happy for heroin addicts to inject infront of kids and at major events which are publicly advertised?
 
Cortez said:
Ah, a thinking reply. I used to have a very good, very safety conscious friend in the 1980's. She always wore a current safety standard riding helmet, in those days it was one with a harness and a rigid peak. She fell off and landed face down on the road; the peak of her hat caused her neck to snap and she was killed. A hat does not guarantee safety.
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I have a lot of friends who are doctors, and quite a few of them work in A&E. This is what they have told me. They haven't told me that people shouldn't wear helmets, but that this can be another injury from a fall where a helmet is worn. Sadly, they see a lot of broken necks from mountain biking. Rigid peaks too I think are now a known risk. Sorry about your friend. As you say, there is no guarantee of safety.

My husband actually suffered a brain injury this year when road cycling. He was wearing a helmet but was I think reckless to put himself in the situation of cycling with an undisciplined, over-large bunch in the first place. Its not clear whether the helmet saved him or saved him but caused other injuries. He still suffered a bleed to the brain and numerous head and facial fractures, and no vehicle was involved. No-one can comment with that much certainty on brain injuries. It might have been the case that his helmet caused his head to ricochet against the road surface, and certainly while his sunglasses might have helped protect his eyes, they fractured his cheekbone. Fortunately, he has recovered.
 
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Moomin1 said:
True, but would you allow someone to tell your child (theoretical obviously - I don't know if you have kids!), that it's 'not necessary' to wear a hat out riding in any circumstance?

If not, then it's IMO not acceptable either for large equestrian events, widely publicised, to be condoning it either.
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You know, I absolutely can't stand that "would you tell your child" line of argument. As if children are somehow more important than anyone else you might have an opinion on. And no, I don't have children, and am not particularly invested in that particular argument.

All I would say is that I do think there is a huge problem in the UK with children being inactive and mollycoddled by risk averse, over-anxious parents. I see my friend's children in other countries riding without hats and having fun, and I do wonder if the health benefits they achieve by being more active and slightly less risk conscious outweighs the greater risk of a small number not wearing helmets, when taking the population as a whole into consideration.

Or to put it another way - do you think its more dangerous to drink heavily, take drugs, do more exercise, develop early onset adult Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, angina, etc. than it is to ride without a helmet?

I would understand if the equestrian events were condoning NO helmets, but that's not the case.

But obviously its happening, so we have to deal with it. Its already a pfaff entering HOYS qualifiers but at least SHB(GB) was straightforward to deal with; I don't know if I'll actually bother now as I only want to do a couple of county level working hunters.
 
Mithras said:
You know, I absolutely can't stand that "would you tell your child" line of argument. As if children are somehow more important than anyone else you might have an opinion on. And no, I don't have children, and am not particularly invested in that particular argument.

All I would say is that I do think there is a huge problem in the UK with children being inactive and mollycoddled by risk averse, over-anxious parents. I see my friend's children in other countries riding without hats and having fun, and I do wonder if the health benefits they achieve by being more active and slightly less risk conscious outweighs the greater risk of a small number not wearing helmets, when taking the population as a whole into consideration.

Or to put it another way - do you think its more dangerous to drink heavily, take drugs, do more exercise, develop early onset adult Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, angina, etc. than it is to ride without a helmet?

I would understand if the equestrian events were condoning NO helmets, but that's not the case.

But obviously its happening, so we have to deal with it. Its already a pfaff entering HOYS qualifiers but at least SHB(GB) was straightforward to deal with; I don't know if I'll actually bother now as I only want to do a couple of county level working hunters.
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Just buy yourself a helmet and you'll be sorted :) No mither, no drama :)
 
Moomin1 said:
Just wondering, would you be happy for heroin addicts to inject infront of kids and at major events which are publicly advertised?
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Are you seriously equating Cortez and HOYS competitors riding without hats to people injecting heroin? That is exactly the kind of hyperbole that makes me think the everyone must wear a hat for everything brigade have no idea on hats' limitations.

Why should people ride at all, they are just putting themselves one plastic bag away from death after all? It is just like taking heroin :rolleyes:

Cortez isn't keen on being a role model for someone else's kids, she just wants to get on with her life, based on what she feels is appropriate for her.
 
Mithras said:
You know, I absolutely can't stand that "would you tell your child" line of argument. As if children are somehow more important than anyone else you might have an opinion on. And no, I don't have children, and am not particularly invested in that particular argument.

All I would say is that I do think there is a huge problem in the UK with children being inactive and mollycoddled by risk averse, over-anxious parents. I see my friend's children in other countries riding without hats and having fun, and I do wonder if the health benefits they achieve by being more active and slightly less risk conscious outweighs the greater risk of a small number not wearing helmets, when taking the population as a whole into consideration.

Or to put it another way - do you think its more dangerous to drink heavily, take drugs, do more exercise, develop early onset adult Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, angina, etc. than it is to ride without a helmet?

I would understand if the equestrian events were condoning NO helmets, but that's not the case.

But obviously its happening, so we have to deal with it. Its already a pfaff entering HOYS qualifiers but at least SHB(GB) was straightforward to deal with; I don't know if I'll actually bother now as I only want to do a couple of county level working hunters.
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I think all of them are as potentially dangerous as the other.

I don't have children.

However, if anyone tried to tell my OH's kids that it is ok to get on a horse without a hat, I would be furious to say the least.

Children ARE NOT anymore important at all - I am merely pointing out that for people like Cortez, who say 'adults' can make their mind up what they do in competitions, it does NOT portray a good image to children. Children, and teenagers make stupid judgements, often based on what they see. As society, I feel adults should be responsible in a public capacity, and portray a good image, as much as to what is reasonable.

For instance, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect everyone in society to walk around in a random street and not to swear to another adult who they are chatting to. However, I would not expect a celebrity on tv or radio to do the same on open air.
 
undergroundoli said:
Are you seriously equating Cortez and HOYS competitors riding without hats to people injecting heroin? That is exactly the kind of hyperbole that makes me think the everyone must wear a hat for everything brigade have no idea on hats' limitations.

Why should people ride at all, they are just putting themselves one plastic bag away from death after all? It is just like taking heroin :rolleyes:

Cortez isn't keen on being a role model for someone else's kids, she just wants to get on with her life, based on what she feels is appropriate for her.
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What is hard to understand here?!! I am not suggesting that anybody who rides without a hat is the equivalent of a heroin addict!
I am saying that, despite it being a PERSONAL CHOICE what someone does, it is NOT acceptable in some instances to promote/condone it at a major equine event where impressionable people and kids are watching.

And if you read back to my other posts, I quite clearly say that a believing a hat will save you from death or injury would be ridiculous.
 
Moomin1 said:
What is hard to understand here?!! I am not suggesting that anybody who rides without a hat is the equivalent of a heroin addict!
I am saying that, despite it being a PERSONAL CHOICE what someone does, it is NOT acceptable in some instances to promote/condone it at a major equine event where impressionable people and kids are watching.

And if you read back to my other posts, I quite clearly say that a believing a hat will save you from death or injury would be ridiculous.
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If you are not inferring that riding without a hat in front of kids is as bad as injecting smack in front of them what exactly was the point you were making? I doubt anyone on this forum condones breaking a law in front of kids, for one thing possession gets you 7 years and kids talk.

I know you say that you think that believing a hat will save you from death or injury is ridiculous, as I said I think that by brining heroin into it you are making people who force others to wear hats look ridiculous.
 
undergroundoli said:
If you are not inferring that riding without a hat in front of kids is as bad as injecting smack in front of them what exactly was the point you were making? I doubt anyone on this forum condones breaking a law in front of kids, for one thing possession gets you 7 years and kids talk.

I know you say that you think that believing a hat will save you from death or injury is ridiculous, as I said I think that by brining heroin into it you are making people who force others to wear hats look ridiculous.
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Have I forced others to wear hats?

(Just for the record, smack isn't heroin...)
 
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