I don't really understand this comment. I'm sure all of us have spooked our horses by accident at one point or another! I wouldn't say there was anything "horrid" about the rider's reaction at the end. More to the point, I also don't think it's clear whether he spooks Fuego or whether the crowd does.
Okay I will have a go at answering this, for me Fuego throughout the test (bar the end) doesn't show tension, he does show a typical Iberian way of going that can look tense when it's not. While he may make some errors all of the moves are fundamentally correct. He is also performing within the bounds of his talent.
thirding this
Some riders are pressured by owners to get results which can lead to shortcuts let's not pretend that never happens.
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but now I'm back I'm going to put in my tuppence worth thirding this
I get that people who ride and train iberians have a huge passion for them, I'm not immune to their charms, but the cult of the iberian horse is strong on HHO at times
Amen to all thisI've been on holiday so resisted getting to involved in either this or the Toto Jr thread
Someone further up this thread mentioned the 'cult' around Iberians and others have mentioned the vilification that the likes of EG receive but not Iberian riders. It's a completely false dichotomy, there are issues in both 'schools' and in fact the two schools are not as separate as some people like to make out.
As mentioned above, I love watching that freestyle (though like GS, the spook at the end isn't pleasant viewing) but appreciate the lack of technical accuracy. It's a show rather than a precise dressage test. However, I was at the London Olympics for the Freestyle and before the test there Munoz Diaz gave Fuego an almighty kick with his spurs (toes turned out) and pulled him into a very deep flexion as he went around the arena. Yes, a GP horse must be on the aids but it was the ugliest bit of riding that I saw through that whole day and completely busted the myth that the Iberian horse had a pure, 'kind', classical training.
Having spent a lot of time in Spain I would also say that the training is far from the gentle classical approach that a lot of posters here seem to assume when watching or sharing footage of Iberians. They are started very young, do collected work far earlier than we would do it, and far less of the long / low work that we do in this country. They are stable-kept with little turnout (if any). I have watched warm-up for Doma Vaquera and few horses are worked in rising trot or lower than competition frame. Very different to the preferred approach of people in 'classical horse groups' on Facebook (though I admit I avoid those like the plague these days, the bullying is horrendous).
I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is no purely 'good' school and no purely 'bad' school. I don't like rollkur and I don't enjoy watching Toto Jr, but he does look better than he did at a stallion show a year or two ago. The jerky movement does nothing for me. Equally I didn't like Freestyle when she first came out at GP, it all looked very spidery and borderline unbalanced, but she is stronger and 'smoother' now and I'm sure Toto Jr will improve and strengthen.
Perhaps we all need to learn to take the elements we like and aspire to those, and avoid them elements we dislike? Find trainers who build on the former and strive to make our own horses stronger, sounder, more elastic (which means doing the same for ourselves wherever possible!).
See to me I don't see as much tension, more of a typical Iberian way of going. Their naturally shorter necks and being more leg moving then a warmblood can exasperated that image. When you ride them they definitely don't feel as tense as they look. While you can ride a warmblood, feel as if at any moment they are going to explode and yet it looks lovely and loose and supple. Different types appeal to different people.
I haven't ever insisted that Spanish riders are all brilliant and all treat their horses wonderfully. I know how they can train over there. However, for me, I prefer the Iberian School of training and think it leads to a more correct way of going. I don't condone the abuse of that method.I've been on holiday so resisted getting to involved in either this or the Toto Jr thread
Someone further up this thread mentioned the 'cult' around Iberians and others have mentioned the vilification that the likes of EG receive but not Iberian riders. It's a completely false dichotomy, there are issues in both 'schools' and in fact the two schools are not as separate as some people like to make out.
As mentioned above, I love watching that freestyle (though like GS, the spook at the end isn't pleasant viewing) but appreciate the lack of technical accuracy. It's a show rather than a precise dressage test. However, I was at the London Olympics for the Freestyle and before the test there Munoz Diaz gave Fuego an almighty kick with his spurs (toes turned out) and pulled him into a very deep flexion as he went around the arena. Yes, a GP horse must be on the aids but it was the ugliest bit of riding that I saw through that whole day and completely busted the myth that the Iberian horse had a pure, 'kind', classical training.
Having spent a lot of time in Spain I would also say that the training is far from the gentle classical approach that a lot of posters here seem to assume when watching or sharing footage of Iberians. They are started very young, do collected work far earlier than we would do it, and far less of the long / low work that we do in this country. They are stable-kept with little turnout (if any). I have watched warm-up for Doma Vaquera and few horses are worked in rising trot or lower than competition frame. Very different to the preferred approach of people in 'classical horse groups' on Facebook (though I admit I avoid those like the plague these days, the bullying is horrendous).
I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is no purely 'good' school and no purely 'bad' school. I don't like rollkur and I don't enjoy watching Toto Jr, but he does look better than he did at a stallion show a year or two ago. The jerky movement does nothing for me. Equally I didn't like Freestyle when she first came out at GP, it all looked very spidery and borderline unbalanced, but she is stronger and 'smoother' now and I'm sure Toto Jr will improve and strengthen.
Perhaps we all need to learn to take the elements we like and aspire to those, and avoid them elements we dislike? Find trainers who build on the former and strive to make our own horses stronger, sounder, more elastic (which means doing the same for ourselves wherever possible!).
I agree on the Dutch 'rollkur' school, they do seem to go for spectacle over correctness. However Carl Hester works closely with Dutch breeders and riders (I forget the name of the people who bred Valegro and who he sends protégées to) - again, even in The Netherlands there are people who train correctness and lightness.
I hate stereotyping and feel that each case needs to be looked at individually. As you say, there are wonderful examples in various schools (Munoz Diaz's own trainer has trained all over Europe and even with Pat Parelli: http://www.luislucio.com/index.php?i=en) and the best riders maintain an open mind and are willing to admit when they've got things wrong - people from Baucher to Hester have done so and I aspire to being equally flexible.
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here just putting it differently! I've sent my 3yo to my trainer in Spain to be backed so I guess I'm all for the Spanish school too
I fully understand why people love Totilas and he was impressive.
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