Dressage 10 Year Anniversary of Fuego's freestyle at WEG 2010 (video included)

[oldie48]

Personal preference is bound to affect all of us and thank goodness we don't all like the same thing. It would be very boring if we did, however, I do wonder how much those of us, who are not judges, allow our personal bias to influence our ability to overlook errors and the extent to which they will affect overall marking. I know when I watch the higher levels there are things I notice because I don't like them whereas in other tests because I like the horses's way of going/rider's style of riding etc I don't notice (or forgive) the odd mistake. I came across this and found it really interesting as I think it explicitly shows how an error will affect, not only the mark for a movement but also the collectives.
https://inside.fei.org/system/files...undamental Mistakes in Dressage Movements.pdf

 

[TPO]

100% @j1ffy and @milliepops

Also I'm pretty sure Carl H was in some sort of partnership with Pat Parelli. I cant remember the extent that they worked together but CH was endorsing PP a few years back.

 

[j1ffy]

Personal preference is bound to affect all of us and thank goodness we don't all like the same thing. It would be very boring if we did, however, I do wonder how much those of us, who are not judges, allow our personal bias to influence our ability to overlook errors and the extent to which they will affect overall marking. I know when I watch the higher levels there are things I notice because I don't like them whereas in other tests because I like the horses's way of going/rider's style of riding etc I don't notice (or forgive) the odd mistake. I came across this and found it really interesting as I think it explicitly shows how an error will affect, not only the mark for a movement but also the collectives.
https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Guidelines for Marking of Fundamental Mistakes in Dressage Movements.pdf

That's very interesting reading, thanks for digging it out Oldie48. It seems that croup-high in the piaffe and 'bouncing' behind is directly addressed as an error (though presumably it's addressed in the full FEI guidelines), which is a common complaint about modern dressage.

 

[j1ffy]

100% @j1ffy and @milliepops

Also I'm pretty sure Carl H was in some sort of partnership with Pat Parelli. I cant remember the extent that they worked together but CH was endorsing PP a few years back.

I seem to recall PP was flavour of the month a while back, before the infamous Catwalk video did the rounds...

 

[shortstuff99]

That's very interesting reading, thanks for digging it out Oldie48. It seems that croup-high in the piaffe and 'bouncing' behind is directly addressed as an error (though presumably it's addressed in the full FEI guidelines), which is a common complaint about modern dressage.

Which is interesting as the piaffe I was complaining about from Toto Jr had, therefore, a known error and still scored 9+.

 

[j1ffy]

Which is interesting as the piaffe I was complaining about from Toto Jr had, therefore, a known error and still scored 9+.

Sorry just realised I had a typo!! I should have written that it ISN'T directly addressed as an error - quite an important typo on my part (must stop writing on forums between conf calls...) That would explain why the croup-high piaffes receive such high scores, perhaps it should be in the summary document for judges?!

 

[milliepops]

lowering of the quarters is indeed detailed in the full FEI handbook.

 

[j1ffy]

lowering of the quarters is indeed detailed in the full FEI handbook.

Thanks MP - I haven't read that far through yet as I am a LONG way off having to do piaffe in a test ?

 

[milliepops]

tis a bit of a dry read

 

[daffy44]

what do you see that you are not keen of with gal, what don`t you like? it not a trick question but interested, please

Without going into specifics for each movement, what I dont like about Gal and others like him, is that I dont like when a horse is manufactured to look spectacular, I like horses who are developed to look beautiful.

I realize that is open to a huge amount of personal interpretation, and I what I see as manufactured, someone else will see as beautiful, but thats the best way I can describe it. For example, when I watch Carl, Jessica Von Bredow Werndl, Ingrid Klimke, Dorothee Schnieder, or Helen Langehaneberg (and others like them) I see riders in harmony with their horses, and horses developed to be more athletic and more beautiful. I dont see the harmony or beauty with EG and other riders like him.

 

[tristar]

thanks daffy, iagree

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I can’t say that I was that taken with Fuego’s overall performance. For a start he swished his tail throughout which people always say is due to tension. Also he is behind the vertical for most of the test and again more recently it’s been drummed into us that the horses nose should be slightly in front of the vertical. Yet no one has afaik even mentioned that. I found the music apart from that for piaffe dull also and couldn’t be bothered to watch to the end. He’s still a beautiful and stunning horse though.

I was always keen on dressage but the older I’ve got the less enamoured I am with the whole thing. I’m no fan of Totilas either and just think he looks unnatural.

 

[milliepops]

the tail swishing was mentioned on the toto Jr thread too. unless it's furiously whirling I personally don't pay too much attention to a moving tail (better than a clamped one ) i have a horse that swishes her tail every time I use my leg, even when at her most relaxed and through she still does it, it means very little other than it's a bit of a habit.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would have loved to see Helen Langehaneberg get the ride on Totilas .

 

[shortstuff99]

I can’t say that I was that taken with Fuego’s overall performance. For a start he swished his tail throughout which people always say is due to tension. Also he is behind the vertical for most of the test and again more recently it’s been drummed into us that the horses nose should be slightly in front of the vertical. Yet no one has afaik even mentioned that. I found the music apart from that for piaffe dull also and couldn’t be bothered to watch to the end. He’s still a beautiful and stunning horse though.

I was always keen on dressage but the older I’ve got the less enamoured I am with the whole thing. I’m no fan of Totilas either and just think he looks unnatural.

If you watch closely you can see that he is on the vertical, but the naturally short neck with the massive stallion Crest gives the impression of him being much tighter then he is.

 

[shortstuff99]

I will also add if you think this music is boring, make sure to not watch an Isabel Werth one, you will fall asleep ?

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

If you watch closely you can see that he is on the vertical, but the naturally short neck with the massive stallion Crest gives the impression of him being much tighter then he is.

I don’t agree but he is thick in the neck that’s for sure. A lot of freestyles have tedious music but you invited discussion on this test.

 

[shortstuff99]

I don’t agree but he is thick in the neck that’s for sure. A lot of freestyles have tedious music but you invited discussion on this test.

I did, which means I can put a counter point to your post too ?

 

[TPO]

Not sure if this is the correct thread as there were a few similarly themed (or ended up that way) dressage threads.

I just read this, admittedly high level, article on COTH about someone competing in dressage in America on Andalusians. I thought the article was interesting, and relevant to some of the discussions had on here, as she didn't start training with dressage/GP in mind but ended up at that level on "not a warmblood". She does talk about her more "warmblood moving" horse being more successful over her other Andalusian but that she is going to continue to show how special the Andalusian is (paraphrasing) rather than appearing despondent about it.

She also trains and competes bridleless, has done western dressage and does working equitation. There is a video in the article of her doing a bridleless freestyle incorporating la garrocha work and GP movements. My take away is the the two different "styles"/foundations/training can co-exist and it doesn't have to be either or?

I think it's a positive example of a horse being able to do many jobs well. As the lady says by installing the correct foundations you can transfer that to other things.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/articl...-potts-warner-believes-dressage-should-be-fun

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I always thought, "Yeah, yeah, ok, you love your horse, whatever..." when someone would tell me how special their Spanish horse was. Or when a fellow livery with 2 stallions told me the relationship with a Spanish horse is like no other. I began working with an older well schooled stallion and thought, "Hm. This is interesting." Then found myself a cute little plain bay from Spain...on the internet.

Now that I've owned said bay for 3 years now, he really is like no other horse. We've gone much farther into our dressage training than I expected, and he really taught me how to ride, even as the just been sat on youngster that he was when I bought him. We've done tricks, ridden without a bridle, started some working equitation, and have considered jumping (he has quite good form). If the Spanish horse trusts you and you have really good body awareness, they'll do anything for you. Things you've never imagined you could get a horse to do.

Mine is quirky, spooky, and dramatic at times, but that sensitivity is what comes in handy during training if you know how to go about it correctly. He can be the weirdest of all weirdos, but the easiest of all horses in the yard if you are correct in your ways.

I think they do best with those that are true horsemen and not just riders. Its a very mental ride. You've got to be aware and intelligent about what you're doing. I'm sure some are more "dull" or tolerant. I find ( generalizing here) warmbloods are more apt to tolerate a more physical stronger ride, whereas Andalusians are about riding with your brains and finess.

Their movement, training, and general purpose can vary from that of the Warmblood. What bugs me a bit is that the Warmblood is the end all be all standard of dressage. Everything is compared to one. We need to stop doing that. I get that these are purpose bred sport horses (heck, I've even owned one before), and impressive equines, but a correct test is a correct test. Not to be distracted by flinging legs or floating gaits. Yes, gaits matter, but a keen eye should be able to determine what a quality gait is for that particular horse in front of you. Dressage is about getting the most out of the horses gaits, for that horse. Not mimicking some top warmblood. Just my humble opinion, of course.

I'm not anti warmblood as there is some real quality out there and impressive horses. I do think sport horses in general are bred for sport and movement, not so much disposition. Whereas the Andalusian was bred for purpose and disposition. They were gifted to royalty, used in bull fights (gotta have a good mount for that) and even working around the farm. Warmbloods have a working history too, but have strayed farther from that. I know I'm painting with a broad brush here, and these are just my general views. Horses are individuals, and I can't say all warmbloods are x and all Andalusians are y.

Anyone is welcome to totally to disagree with me or have an entirely different experience, this is just as I've seen it.

 

[shortstuff99]

Not sure if this is the correct thread as there were a few similarly themed (or ended up that way) dressage threads.

I just read this, admittedly high level, article on COTH about someone competing in dressage in America on Andalusians. I thought the article was interesting, and relevant to some of the discussions had on here, as she didn't start training with dressage/GP in mind but ended up at that level on "not a warmblood". She does talk about her more "warmblood moving" horse being more successful over her other Andalusian but that she is going to continue to show how special the Andalusian is (paraphrasing) rather than appearing despondent about it.

She also trains and competes bridleless, has done western dressage and does working equitation. There is a video in the article of her doing a bridleless freestyle incorporating la garrocha work and GP movements. My take away is the the two different "styles"/foundations/training can co-exist and it doesn't have to be either or?

I think it's a positive example of a horse being able to do many jobs well. As the lady says by installing the correct foundations you can transfer that to other things.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/articl...-potts-warner-believes-dressage-should-be-fun

She sounds an awesome trainer!