20% of people don't like horse sport...

[tristar]

But they will be the people who ultimately decide equestrianism's future in the Olympics. As current or former horse riders, we all know far more about horses than the public - but that doesn't matter to the IOC. Just look at figure skating and ask the ISU how they're actively (negatively) changing the sport to make it more appealing for the public to watch - and that's a sport with, yes, questionable ethics but no animals involved.

The public (and most of us, but that is not my point) don't want to see horses falling, being hit/kicked and hauled around. Maybe we know what the use and potential benefits of spurs and whips are but the public don't - and they don't care. They just don't want to see it.

Look how disastrous the pentathlon at Tokyo was for all horse sports. That is why I keep saying on all of these posts that horse sports need to pay attention to what that percentage is saying and stop dismissing them as people who have no idea.

It really doesn't matter if horse people can continue to justify these things to themselves - and that's without getting into equestrianism's reputation as being a classist, white led sport.

i only said that because its surprising how even people without the `horsey knowledge thing` can see how bad it can be sometimes, even to expressing on occasions how they like certain ways of riding, not only what they don`t like, because to improve things you have know where is the better place, its just interesting to me how the innocent eye can see good or bad

 

[tristar]

Watch | Facebook

I can't make the link better to show more on here but this says it all. Rider just been given a three month ban. Any feeling human being - whether rider or not- will watch this and wonder why it's allowed to happen. Epona TV is great for flagging these 'events' up.

the way the horse goes over the first jump was seriously bad, it has something wrong in the mouth or back, and the way it jumped upside down with its top line if it was not right before it could have hurt itself during the jump
the second jump was a simple upright

it would be interesting to see how it jumped the whole round

 

[sakura]

i only said that because its surprising how even people without the `horsey knowledge thing` can see how bad it can be sometimes, even to expressing on occasions how they like certain ways of riding, not only what they don`t like, because to improve things you have know where is the better place, its just interesting to me how the innocent eye can see good or bad

Ah my bad, apologies! I think we're in agreement then

 

[tristar]

Ah my bad, apologies! I think we're in agreement then

absolutely

i did not make things clear!

 

[RachelFerd]

I have always thought the people who want to win in any sport have to be fairly non sympathetic with other competitors, and in horse sport with their horses. Winning has to come first - and if you hit or kick your horse to jump higher, run faster, and WIN you are a hero, you got the job done. Empathy and pushing your horse beyond its limits do not go together.

I'm not sure this is really the case with our fabulous group of top eventing ladies in this country - listening to Piggy will on her rivals in the Badminton commentary box - that wasn't the commentary of someone who wants to win at any cost.

 

[eahotson]

I think the worst thing 'we' can do is just dismiss a % of society that disagrees with horse sport. That marks the start of the end.
I know enough people within the sport that have concerns and I'm one of them. I'm tired of seeing horses in pain, shouting out loud that something hurts and being told they're being mareish, lazy, trying to get out of work, testing you etc. etc.
Let's be honest they're not designed to carry us. I think we need to do better and maybe that starts with listening to the other side.

z

Ugg

And tellingly "The judges did nothing".

 

[littleshetland]

There was, as I remember it, a golden time back in the 70's when showjumping was on prime time tv. And as I remember it, everybody enjoyed watching it and Harvey Smith, David Broome, Eddie Macken etc were household names. If you flicked 2 fingers at someone it was common parlance to say you'd 'done a Harvey Smith..' - everybody knew who Harvey Smith was. The horses were ridden in the most basic of tack - mostly snaffles and the odd running martingale and every horse had a proper name....Penwood Forgemill, Rex the Robber, Boomerang....the horses were as famous as the riders themselves, and all introduced by David Vine, a tv sports presenter who was very popular. I'm pretty sure it was him who said the public started switching off when David Broome (?) showed up on a horse one year called 'Sanyo Sound Centre'. The humour and charm seemed to go out of it all after that. I appreciate that I'm looking back through rose tinted glasses, and probably dubious practices went on behind the scenes, but as I remember it Show jumping was hugely popular across the nation.

 

[reynold]

I remember those days and the less than memorable horse names were a factor in the downturn in SJing on TV. (I think it was Harvey with the Sanyo sponsorship)

I still watch a bit of SJing on TV when I visit a friend who has Eurosport 1 as it has the GCT on a saturday evening a lot atm. I enjoy it but I find a lot of the horses are totally unmemorable due to their names.

Some are memorable, like King Edward, but I lose the plot when it comes to the Belgian and Dutch warmblood names of van het this and that.

As the horse is at least 50% of the partnership (sometimes more with some riders!) it would be nice if they got more recognition with simpler names (I'm not referring to just 'english' names but ones that are short enough to 'trip off the tongue')

Dressage and eventing seem to have 'better' names for their equine partners but even those names are drifting towards the less than memorable in some cases which is a shame. (I wonder if this is the result of higher warmblood % in the breeding of eventers now?)

 

[eahotson]

Just finished reading Caroline Ackrills "Ticket to ride".The heroine is a young ambitious eventer.This book was written in the 80s.There was a nasty accident and a horse was seriously injured. I paraphrase.She says that they were only on the bottom rung.There was high wastage of horses further up.They broke their bones, their tendons were ruptured,their hearts gave out.She says it was alright for humans to voluntarily test their own abilities to breaking point but was it fair to form a partnership when one half of the combination had no voice and no way of saying "Stop now I have had enough".
Its not just horses that are vulnerable though at top level sport.Questions are now being asked about the abuse and exploitation of child (mainly girls) athletes.

 

[RachelFerd]

There was, as I remember it, a golden time back in the 70's when showjumping was on prime time tv. And as I remember it, everybody enjoyed watching it and Harvey Smith, David Broome, Eddie Macken etc were household names. If you flicked 2 fingers at someone it was common parlance to say you'd 'done a Harvey Smith..' - everybody knew who Harvey Smith was. The horses were ridden in the most basic of tack - mostly snaffles and the odd running martingale and every horse had a proper name....Penwood Forgemill, Rex the Robber, Boomerang....the horses were as famous as the riders themselves, and all introduced by David Vine, a tv sports presenter who was very popular. I'm pretty sure it was him who said the public started switching off when David Broome (?) showed up on a horse one year called 'Sanyo Sound Centre'. The humour and charm seemed to go out of it all after that. I appreciate that I'm looking back through rose tinted glasses, and probably dubious practices went on behind the scenes, but as I remember it Show jumping was hugely popular across the nation.

I listened to a podcast recently with Anneli Drummond-Hay who had Merely a Monarch who won Badminton a couple of times before then switching to pure SJ at the height of pure SJ's popularity. She said that everyone used to bute their horses - she retired Merely a Monarch at the point when the authorities banned the use of bute in competition - along with a lot of horses who conveniently retired at the same time. So definitely a few dubious practices in play!

 

[tristar]

z

And tellingly "The judges did nothing".

so only did they fail to pull the rider up for misconduct towards the horse, they also failed to grasp the effect it would have on the public perception of their sport

 

[littleshetland]

That video clip upthread is disgusting .....I'd quite like to punch that rider in the head - see how he likes it.

 

[eahotson]

so only did they fail to pull the rider up for misconduct towards the horse, they also failed to grasp the effect it would have on the public perception of their sport

Agree.

 

[tallyho!]

Oh no I feel a soapbox whinge coming on and I can’t stop it ?.

So much about life as we know it on Earth can be horrible. Degradation of land, displacement of species, exploitation of the seas etc… domination of species for gain has been the human way since domestication began. I don’t know why but when I saw the results of this poll, I just thought “well, what about dairy farming??? What about pig farming??? What about overfishing???… blah blah blah” and got all what do they know about it…

Then, speaking to some non-horsey friends… it opened my eyes really (but it’s not changed my mind on riding ?). Here in the UK and possibly some other equine-friendly countries, this is our chance to make some changes. It’s a window opened to us inviting positive change where THESE animals get to elevate their existence (where possible). The horse has been humans’ loyal historical companion you can be see that in ancient cave drawings even (and a source of food I guess for many people) through the evolution of mankind, war, agriculture and recreation in modern times… its time to see it through others eyes. Lots of the non-riding public can’t see the point of sitting on an animal plodding through the lanes and roads in the modern era (we have cars ffs right?)… what’s the point of jumping over house-high plastic bricks; Badminton is just idiotic to some folk and dressage is snore inducing bouncing on horses backs for no reason (their words not mine). On top of all that, you have to give them a house, a garden, pick up shite and give them hooves every 6 weeks coz their own hooves don’t work or somethin’…

They just don’t see it from our point of view. (I’d argue though, seriously what is the point of swinging a thin stick at a tiny ball…?)…

This is just what we do on Earth for entertainment, we run, we jump, we swim n dive, we hit balls with sticks, kick em with our feet and run with them tucked under our arms and dive head first into the ground, we race motors at top speed around a very windy track, we pedal up hills slowly and down hills at speed and then we sail into storms for no reason other than it gets us a bit of metal on a string at the end when we don’t [expletive] die. Some people ask dogs to run sleds, others get reindeer to do it. Some get pigeons to race, some get horses to do it.

I agree with my mates, where we don’t use ourselves, we should (as sentient beings ourselves don’t forget) give the opportunity for other sentient beings to be treated with respect, to be listened to however possible be that through scientific evidence or vets or through seers, it’s all open and possible for change. These are horses!!! Are they not the ultimate sci-fi, fantasy sentient being (apart from multi-coloured bears that taste of blueberries) - it’s why we love our talking Ponios, unicorns and Pegasus’? They are part of us. The only thing stopping change is us equestrians, some of us are hardened to change and closed to new ideas. What is it that is truly stopping change?

I wish I knew.

Ok I will step down from soapbox.

 

[Rokele55]

i would argue that horse sports, the ownershIp, their connections and associations are seen as elitist. As with hunting, farming and most rural pursuits it is 'disapproved' of because it is not available or easy to become part of. Animal welfare is I just an excuse. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the cruelty involving a dead cow to make a football

 

[windswoo]

Oh no I feel a soapbox whinge coming on and I can’t stop it ?.

So much about life as we know it on Earth can be horrible. Degradation of land, displacement of species, exploitation of the seas etc… domination of species for gain has been the human way since domestication began. I don’t know why but when I saw the results of this poll, I just thought “well, what about dairy farming??? What about pig farming??? What about overfishing???… blah blah blah” and got all what do they know about it…

Then, speaking to some non-horsey friends… it opened my eyes really (but it’s not changed my mind on riding ?). Here in the UK and possibly some other equine-friendly countries, this is our chance to make some changes. It’s a window opened to us inviting positive change where THESE animals get to elevate their existence (where possible). The horse has been humans’ loyal historical companion you can be see that in ancient cave drawings even (and a source of food I guess for many people) through the evolution of mankind, war, agriculture and recreation in modern times… its time to see it through others eyes. Lots of the non-riding public can’t see the point of sitting on an animal plodding through the lanes and roads in the modern era (we have cars ffs right?)… what’s the point of jumping over house-high plastic bricks; Badminton is just idiotic to some folk and dressage is snore inducing bouncing on horses backs for no reason (their words not mine). On top of all that, you have to give them a house, a garden, pick up shite and give them hooves every 6 weeks coz their own hooves don’t work or somethin’…

They just don’t see it from our point of view. (I’d argue though, seriously what is the point of swinging a thin stick at a tiny ball…?)…

This is just what we do on Earth for entertainment, we run, we jump, we swim n dive, we hit balls with sticks, kick em with our feet and run with them tucked under our arms and dive head first into the ground, we race motors at top speed around a very windy track, we pedal up hills slowly and down hills at speed and then we sail into storms for no reason other than it gets us a bit of metal on a string at the end when we don’t [expletive] die. Some people ask dogs to run sleds, others get reindeer to do it. Some get pigeons to race, some get horses to do it.

I agree with my mates, where we don’t use ourselves, we should (as sentient beings ourselves don’t forget) give the opportunity for other sentient beings to be treated with respect, to be listened to however possible be that through scientific evidence or vets or through seers, it’s all open and possible for change. These are horses!!! Are they not the ultimate sci-fi, fantasy sentient being (apart from multi-coloured bears that taste of blueberries) - it’s why we love our talking Ponios, unicorns and Pegasus’? They are part of us. The only thing stopping change is us equestrians, some of us are hardened to change and closed to new ideas. What is it that is truly stopping change?

I wish I knew.

Ok I will step down from soapbox.

Agreed!!!

 

[ycbm]

i would argue that horse sports, the ownershIp, their connections and associations are seen as elitist. As with hunting, farming and most rural pursuits it is 'disapproved' of because it is not available or easy to become part of. Animal welfare is I just an excuse. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the cruelty involving a dead cow to make a football

How old are you? Footballs haven't been made out of leather since1980.

There are plenty of riders and horse owners and lifelong country people who are against hunting foxes and shooting birds.

 

[planete]

i would argue that horse sports, the ownershIp, their connections and associations are seen as elitist. As with hunting, farming and most rural pursuits it is 'disapproved' of because it is not available or easy to become part of. Animal welfare is I just an excuse. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the cruelty involving a dead cow to make a football

I am part of the horse owning/riding community and have never had a chip on my shoulder. Concerns over animal welfare come from appreciation of the amazing gift our animals make us of their bodies and souls. Dismissing animal welfare concerns as plebeian envy is facile and ignores the depth of feeling evoked by poor treatment. Do not confuse a criminal minority intent on creating mayhem under the excuse of animal rights with ordinary people deeply concerned about the ill treatment most of us have witnessed at one time or other.

 

[Lyle]

I think anyone who dismisses the results of the poll in a simplified "If they don't like it, they can move on" manner, are going to hasten decline of equestrian. Now is the time to start looking for solutions to change perceptions, and if our federations remain too hardened or stubborn, well, we may need to get creative.

We will never appease the extremists (who for some reason, would rather see the extermination of trillions of animals over night, rather than have them remain in human care, but I digress)
In a relationship, there will always be give and take. I'd say most people, whether horsey or not, can understand that. If the overarching aspects of the partnership between horse and human shows that the horse gets treated fairly and gets a pretty good deal (I.e. well paid, to use the employee and employer analogy) and has an external voice that will also stand for its welfare, then I would say the majority of people would be comfortable with the continued ownership and riding of horses.
The video clip up thread is appalling. That horse has been failed, by it's rider, the judges and the organisations. If someone was beating a dog at a park, I'd bet someone would step in. Not only did no one step in to stop the beating, he was allowed to continue competing. A 3 month ban did not protect the horse at that time.
Upper level sport is what most non-horse people have exposure to due to being televised and in the media. It needs to look much, much better than it does. The slow motion shots of jumping horses with their mouths open, tongues lolling, eyes rolling as they are hauled.... While we know nothing is perfect and yucky stuff can happen, this is obvious it's happening every show, every round etc....
Social media shows just how much the negative squeaky wheels are squeaking. On the recent royal carriage horse getting it's leg over the trace and getting spooked, at the beginning of the video the rider performance signals with her arm and stick. Many, MANY comments said that she had belted the horse, hence why it spooked. It just doesn't look good, and it seems like bad press about horses has really escalated since Tokyo. I think the media has cottoned on to the reaction horses get from the general public....

 

[TwyfordM]

Endurance has such high welfare standards, i honestly think bringing other horse sports up to the same level would help.

Any ride from the bottom to the top, you arrive at the venue and the first thing you do before even tacking up is to get your horse to the pre ride vetting. Everything is checked thoroughly, is the horse sound, is the horse fit enough to compete, heart, back, mouth? Any marks,old cuts, scars have to be declared on the vetting sheet and the vet has to sign off that they’ve seen them pre ride.

Any race beyond 40k has a mid ride vetting where the above is repeated. Any lameness or soreness - retired. Then there’s a rest period for the horse that is timed, you can’t get back on and go back out until at least 30mins after vetting.

At the end, is your third vetting, this is the same routine, except now they are checking for dehydration, marks in the mouth and you loose points if there’s even the slightest sign, the worse the horse is, the more points you loose. Heart rate has to be below 60 for a passed vetting, any spur marks, whip marks, rubs from the saddle, back soreness. Points gone or disqualified.

If the horse has HR above 60, is lame or no gut sounds, or vet thinks something is not right. You have to present your horse to the vet as many times as it takes to get them cleared for travel home.

Yes it’s rigorous and time consuming but welfare is top priority.

Showing, dressage, show jumping, eventing etc I’ve seen lame horses competing. Horses that are no way fit enough to be doing it, riders far too heavy, Badly fitted tack etc and it’s based on a judge’s opinion, not a veterinary professional. Yes they may get pulled in bottom of the line up and told to work on stuff, but in endurance those horses would have been spun at the first vetting and not been able to compete at all.

 

[stormox]

Personally I think polo is the worst sport. There was a recent picture of Prince Harry yanking his horse, mouth wide open, eyes showing pain and bloody spur marks.

 

[stangs]

Personally I think polo is the worst sport. There was a recent picture of Prince Harry yanking his horse, mouth wide open, eyes showing pain and bloody spur marks.

I’d argue though that polo has more potential to improve (even if it’s unlikely to, considering that many people who play it do it for the status symbol appeal, not the horses) than vaulting, which is utterly non-horse-friendly.

If there’s anything this forum criticises, it’s repeated small circles on soft surfaces - what is vaulting if not that, but with the horse’s head locked in place to boot?

 

[Regandal]

Endurance has such high welfare standards, i honestly think bringing other horse sports up to the same level would help.

Not worldwide though. The practices in the Middle East are shocking.

 

[eahotson]

Endurance has such high welfare standards, i honestly think bringing other horse sports up to the same level would help.

Any ride from the bottom to the top, you arrive at the venue and the first thing you do before even tacking up is to get your horse to the pre ride vetting. Everything is checked thoroughly, is the horse sound, is the horse fit enough to compete, heart, back, mouth? Any marks,old cuts, scars have to be declared on the vetting sheet and the vet has to sign off that they’ve seen them pre ride.

Any race beyond 40k has a mid ride vetting where the above is repeated. Any lameness or soreness - retired. Then there’s a rest period for the horse that is timed, you can’t get back on and go back out until at least 30mins after vetting.

At the end, is your third vetting, this is the same routine, except now they are checking for dehydration, marks in the mouth and you loose points if there’s even the slightest sign, the worse the horse is, the more points you loose. Heart rate has to be below 60 for a passed vetting, any spur marks, whip marks, rubs from the saddle, back soreness. Points gone or disqualified.

If the horse has HR above 60, is lame or no gut sounds, or vet thinks something is not right. You have to present your horse to the vet as many times as it takes to get them cleared for travel home.

Yes it’s rigorous and time consuming but welfare is top priority.

Showing, dressage, show jumping, eventing etc I’ve seen lame horses competing. Horses that are no way fit enough to be doing it, riders far too heavy, Badly fitted tack etc and it’s based on a judge’s opinion, not a veterinary professional. Yes they may get pulled in bottom of the line up and told to work on stuff, but in endurance those horses would have been spun at the first vetting and not been able to compete at all.

Wow.

 

[eahotson]

Not worldwide though. The practices in the Middle East are shocking.

This is very true.

 

[TPO]

I’d argue though that polo has more potential to improve (even if it’s unlikely to, considering that many people who play it do it for the status symbol appeal, not the horses) than vaulting, which is utterly non-horse-friendly.

If there’s anything this forum criticises, it’s repeated small circles on soft surfaces - what is vaulting if not that, but with the horse’s head locked in place to boot?

Long time hater of vaulting, happy to have found a comrade!

I don't class it as an equestrian sports at all. It's gymnastics with moving apparatus. Wonder how long it would take them to rebrand if equestrian sports were done away with.

There maybe high standards in endurance within the UK (no idea about UK endurance so taking it at face value) but there certainly aren't world wide.

Apart from the abuse and cheating during some races let's not forget that due to religion horses that are suffering are not pts.

I think horse sports should be banned in countries that do not permit animals to be PTS by a vet.

 

[stangs]

Apart from the abuse and cheating during some races let's not forget that due to religion horses that are suffering are not pts.

I think horse sports should be banned in countries that do not permit animals to be PTS by a vet.

I'm not sure about this. Morality of not being able to euthanise aside - if you're talking about Islam, such a ban would alienate a large community with a strong equestrian past, make mainstream equestrianism even more Eurocentric, probably encourage Islamophobia, in turn encouraging anti-Western/European sentiments, etc. Not to mention - horse sports would still happen there, just under a separate organisation to the FEI. And financially, it could never work: there's so much money in racing coming from the Middle East, and big money involved in endurance too, that no organisation would want to cut these countries off, even if they could.

Something more workable would be that participants of FEI races in these countries are an exception to these laws when in the country, and that participants from those countries, when racing abroad, must have their animals PTS when instructed to, by a vet. But, surely something like that happens already?

Regardless, for welfare to improve, people and organisations from those countries need to be the ones advocating a change to euthanasia laws. Otherwise, people get defensive and nothing changes.
.

 

[TPO]

I'm not sure about this. Morality of not being able to euthanise aside - if you're talking about Islam, such a ban would alienate a large community with a strong equestrian past, make mainstream equestrianism even more Eurocentric, probably encourage Islamophobia, in turn encouraging anti-Western/European sentiments, etc. Not to mention - horse sports would still happen there, just under a separate organisation to the FEI. And financially, it could never work: there's so much money in racing coming from the Middle East, and big money involved in endurance too, that no organisation would want to cut these countries off, even if they could.

Something more workable would be that participants of FEI races in these countries are an exception to these laws when in the country, and that participants from those countries, when racing abroad, must have their animals PTS when instructed to, by a vet. But, surely something like that happens already?

Regardless, for welfare to improve, people and organisations from those countries need to be the ones advocating a change to euthanasia laws. Otherwise, people get defensive and nothing changes.
.

I honestly don't care

Animal welfare [in sport] should be a priority when hosting.

I've had a vet tell me horror stories of her time in UAE and the suffering.

Religion has no place in welfare or animal sports

 

[stangs]

I honestly don't care

Animal welfare [in sport] should be a priority when hosting.

I've had a vet tell me horror stories of her time in UAE and the suffering.

Religion has no place in welfare or animal sports

But you wouldn't be improving animal welfare. Say the FEI decides to stop endurance in the UAE: the UAE would create their own organisation, supported no doubt by other Muslim countries, the races would go on, and horses in the country still wouldn't be PTS when needed. Nothing would improve.

 

[TPO]

But you wouldn't be improving animal welfare. Say the FEI decides to stop endurance in the UAE: the UAE would create their own organisation, supported no doubt by other Muslim countries, the races would go on, and horses in the country still wouldn't be PTS when needed. Nothing would improve.

The FEI is supporting it currently and horses are turned loose with broken leg(s) and left to die in the desert, vets are forbidden from PTS horses that are suffering and won't recover.

UAE pretty much have their own organisation as it is just now anyway