80% of Horses Have Kissing Spine...

[marieshorses]

It would be interesting to know the incidence in a wild unridden population such as mustangs.

100% agreed! Also, collecting data on foals/younger horse--especially within bloodlines, etc.

 

[blitznbobs]

Children are examined at very young ages for scoliosis. We should have the same in foal/younger horses to understand the development of the back, etc...

Most scoliosis develops in puberty so checking at young age is relatively pointless... interested to know however who you think does this at a young age?

 

[marieshorses]

I struggle to believe that 80% of all horses have KS, I do also think its a fashionable diagnosis, but thats not to say that more horses have it, than are diagnosed with it.

Personally, I have had spinal xrays done on two dressage horses as part of a pre purchase exam. One was a just backed 5yr old, she is now a fit happy (unmedicated) 15yr old horse competing at GP, her back has never given me a seconds concern. The other one was a just backed 4yr old, she is now 6, and has also, so far, given me no cause for concern. Both had totally healthy clear xrays, that were viewed by two different vet practises.

ETA: Neither horse has ever worn a pessoa!

Was the full cervical and back done? Were there any vertebrae that showed any form of degeneration? Have you done any x-rays on the older horse to see if anything has changed? The veterinarians I've consulted with have said it's very common to see compressed vertebrae in equine athletes (even dressage). What are your thoughts on that?

 

[marieshorses]

It is quite common for spine x-rays to be requested when purchasing valuable competition horses, so it would be quite interesting to see the stats from this group as they are done as a routine precaution rather than because the horse is showing symptoms.

I would like to propose we try and find such a study done on young competition horses--even foals through younger horse classes.

 

[ester]

Similar to medicine in humans, pathology is usually generated collectively through mostly "sick" or degenerating health. I'm curious in equine science how many of the back x-ray's are compiled through age groups--like the younger horse-- versus post mortem. Since technology is more portable, thus making x-ray's cheaper, are there any large animal veterinary programs that have collected data on younger horses? Children go through scoliosis examinations at very young ages...

In which case I suggest you stop asking for 'opinions' including those from vets and start with a pubmed search

 

[marieshorses]

Most scoliosis develops in puberty so checking at young age is relatively pointless... interested to know however who you think does this at a young age?

We need to pool data of the equine back through foals to younger horses and continue to x-ray's those same equines yearly to see if there are any changes. Since radiography can be subjective, I feel that the younger horse will provide us with preventative measures in understanding horses in sport.

 

[marieshorses]

In which case I suggest you stop asking for 'opinions' including those from vets and start with a pubmed search

Well, I thought coming to a social group would form a hypothesis before diving into the data. However, I cannot find radiography from a preventative standpoint. Can you direct me to any studies?

 

[marieshorses]

The origin of scoliosis cannot really be determined although there is a familial presence. From what I understand, the familial heredity could be viral in origin. It would be interesting to see if viral components in equines cause spinal degeneration.

 

[marieshorses]

Most scoliosis develops in puberty so checking at young age is relatively pointless... interested to know however who you think does this at a young age?

From what I understand, the familial heredity of scoliosis could be viral in origin. It would be interesting to see viral components in equines cause spinal degeneration

 

[ycbm]

Well, I thought coming to a social group would form a hypothesis before diving into the data.

How can we hypothesize about why 80% of horses have kissing spine without any evidence that 80% of horses, have kissing spine?

 

[ycbm]

What's interesting about this area of equine science is the actual definition of kissing spine as it relates to each horse individually. I would think the entire sport would benefit substantially if we discussed these compressed vertebrae from foal to younger horse by a large pool of x-ray's.

Why do you keep calling kissing spines 'compressed vertebrae'? I've never seen this description, myself. Kissing spines is usually, I think, clashing of the dorsal spinal processes. This can, in time, lead to damage to the actual body of the vertebra, but it doesn't start there afaik? Which is why it can be resolved in many cases without surgery, that there is no intrinsic conformation fault. Unlike my horse, who was born with very tightly packed vertebrae.

The surgeon who operated on mine said he generally operates at three ages. 3-4, these horses are born with it. 7-8, these horses are either stoic animals who were born with it and reach a point where they can no longer tolerate it, or it has been caused by training incorrectly. 12, these are horses where work has taken its toll.

 

[rachk89]

How many vertebrae are "kissing" on your horse? I assume the diagnosis was done through x-rays?

Two. The diagnosis was done through xray too. Although the first vet didn't think it was kissing spine as they weren't touching in the xray with the portable machine, but once the consultant saw those he said it was and better xrays were taken to confirm he was right.

 

[marieshorses]

Why do you keep calling kissing spines 'compressed vertebrae'? I've never seen this description, myself. Kissing spines is usually, I think, clashing of the dorsal spinal processes. This can, in time, lead to damage to the actual body of the vertebra, but it doesn't start there afaik? Which is why it can be resolved in many cases without surgery, that there is no intrinsic conformation fault. Unlike my horse, who was born with very tightly packed vertebrae.

The surgeon who operated on mine said he generally operates at three ages. 3-4, these horses are born with it. 7-8, these horses are either stoic animals who were born with it and reach a point where they can no longer tolerate it, or it has been caused by training incorrectly. 12, these are horses where work has taken its toll.

I use the term 'compressed vertebrae' because of the training implications that could essentially cause the compression. I'm trying my best to compile data--mostly from human studies--involving younger athletes and the spine. What I'd like to know is if there are any good studies anyone here could send on young equines that are x-ray'd from a preventative/pre-purchase examination and where to find that data.

We have numerous studies available like this one to understand vertebrae compression due to training vulnerabilities in young athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445254/

 

[marieshorses]

Two. The diagnosis was done through xray too. Although the first vet didn't think it was kissing spine as they weren't touching in the xray with the portable machine, but once the consultant saw those he said it was and better xrays were taken to confirm he was right.

How old was your horse when x-ray'd/diagnosed?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Interesting... So was the lameness determined to be caused by the compressed vertebrae? Did you x-ray? If yes, how many of the vertebrae were touching?

Yes we did x-ray and found, I think it was two years ago, four/five touching/fused but until the rh lameness never had a worry out of him.
He reacted a bit over his back but he always had physio very six months but bucked and kicked out when over the sacro so that was the more painful area.

We injected both areas and for six weeks he was sound then it wore off. I honestly think it was the sacro causing 90% of his pain and all his lameness. He was an exracer so from a young age he had more pressure put on that area when in starting stalls. He did 81 races from 2 till 8 so he did well.

My warmblood had five processes completely fused under saddle and a further four touching at age 13. She had been little backed at 7 and then had a blank few hers were I don't know her history till we got her at 10 and she never was able to cope with ridden work. No other lameness at all until she was pts last year with stifle arthritis aged 16.

 

[rachk89]

How old was your horse when x-ray'd/diagnosed?

8 for both.

 

[marieshorses]

How can we hypothesize about why 80% of horses have kissing spine without any evidence that 80% of horses, have kissing spine?

My initial query included the following: "My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine? What type of horses are usually x-ray'd?"

I'm basically trying to find studies on younger/healthier horses and if there are any "perfect" spines in equines or what is considered healthy, especially when it comes to sport horses.

 

[marieshorses]

Yes we did x-ray and found, I think it was two years ago, four/five touching/fused but until the rh lameness never had a worry out of him.
He reacted a bit over his back but he always had physio very six months but bucked and kicked out when over the sacro so that was the more painful area.

We injected both areas and for six weeks he was sound then it wore off. I honestly think it was the sacro causing 90% of his pain and all his lameness. He was an exracer so from a young age he had more pressure put on that area when in starting stalls. He did 81 races from 2 till 8 so he did well.

My warmblood had five processes completely fused under saddle and a further four touching at age 13. She had been little backed at 7 and then had a blank few hers were I don't know her history till we got her at 10 and she never was able to cope with ridden work. No other lameness at all until she was pts last year with stifle arthritis aged 16.

Interesting--thank you for sharing. Although my background is mostly in human studies, horses are my greatest pastime. I get somewhat frustrated when hearing "trainers" focus on the lameness in limbs versus the potential culprit from spinal indifferences either "born with" or due to training methods. In human research, back issues are now being investigated from a viral origin.

 

[ester]

What I'd like to know is if there are any good studies anyone here could send on young equines that are x-ray'd from a preventative/pre-purchase examination and where to find that data.

It is unlikely that anyone on here has conducted any meaningful study! I mean there are a fair few scientists and doctorates hanging around but that is quite a niche request.

I would suggest you would be better looking as to whether anything has been complied on the continent where pre purchase xrays happen much more frequently in general.

 

[rachk89]

Interesting--thank you for sharing. Although my. background is mostly in human studies, horses are my greatest pastime. I get somewhat frustrated when hearing "trainers" focus on the lameness in limbs versus the potential culprit from spinal indifferences either "born with" or due to training methods. In human research, back issues are now being investigated from a viral origin.

Not sure I've ever heard of viruses causing bone problems in the back for people. Where does this come from?

 

[marieshorses]

It is unlikely that anyone on here has conducted any meaningful study! I mean there are a fair few scientists and doctorates hanging around but that is quite a niche request.

I understand and thank you for the feedback. I've always felt the best field studies are generated in social conversations or observations--even without fundamental understanding of science. Hearing the feedback from horse owners, their diagnosis from veterinarians, etc, is just as important and thank you all for sharing. Equine nutrition, for example, is hugely important for many horse owners. Often times I've heard of supplement budgets for gastro-health to micronutrients costing $150.00+ a month. A full set of spinal x-ray's cost approximately $500.00 I believe. Since we ride on the back of a horse, I find the nutrition is totally secondary to preventative medicine in equines. Understanding the spine, I feel, is the most preventative measure you can take with equines (even if they're young and considered in good health).

 

[Auslander]

I use the term 'compressed vertebrae' because of the training implications that could essentially cause the compression. I'm trying my best to compile data--mostly from human studies--involving younger athletes and the spine. What I'd like to know is if there are any good studies anyone here could send on young equines that are x-ray'd from a preventative/pre-purchase examination and where to find that data.

We have numerous studies available like this one to understand vertebrae compression due to training vulnerabilities in young athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445254/

I think it's highly unlikely that you will get any studies from asking on a general horsey forum. Maybe try the Animal Health Trust - even if they haven't conducted the specific research you are interested in, they may be able to point you in the right direction

 

[marieshorses]

Not sure I've ever heard of viruses causing bone problems in the back for people. Where does this come from?

Really fascinating data that's emerging in our virome. Here's a fascinating read largely based on a Danish study from a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/07/antibiotics-cure-back-pain-patients

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Interesting--thank you for sharing. Although my background is mostly in human studies, horses are my greatest pastime. I get somewhat frustrated when hearing "trainers" focus on the lameness in limbs versus the potential culprit from spinal indifferences either "born with" or due to training methods. In human research, back issues are now being investigated from a viral origin.

In my view back problems for both humans and horses are cause by the following.

Genetics, it was going to happen anyway.

Confirmation (is that the right spelling), how the rest of the human or horse is built puts pressure in other areas to cause the problem. My brother has had a few ankle fusions because of a Neurological disorder so his gait is now forever altered and it can and does affect his back as he is loading differently.

And over working as a youngster when bones at still soft. I've known a few young athletes get early arthritis because of the pressure put under their body's while they are still developing.

I believe my warmblood was born with it and I hurt and the tb probably was caused but starting young but for him it wasn't the cause of pain it was the sacro breaking down which in turn put pressure on the back.

Sometimes I don't think just a kissing spines diagnosis is the only answer. In my view it is one small piece of a larger puzzle going on in the body

 

[ester]

is xraying a preventative measure? surely the definition of prevantative is that it prevents something, xraying merely observes.

I have certainly never heard your theory on obtaining the best field data! I do feel your questions/what you are asking seems to have changed as posts have gone on but maybe that is just me.

 

[rachk89]

Really fascinating data that's emerging in our virome. Here's a fascinating read largely based on a Danish study from a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/07/antibiotics-cure-back-pain-patients

That's bacteria, not viruses. Viruses can't be cured with antibiotics, they don't work that way sadly. They mutate too much.

 

[rachk89]

I'm in agreement with slightlyconfused. My horse was born with it, it's part of his conformation. For such a large, bulky horse he has quite a short back in comparison to others of his build and height. So the vertebrae have less room. Nothing could be done, but he didn't need surgery. Hopefully never will either, but you never know.

He has issues with his hind legs too, in particular his right hind, but I think this was caused from him having to hold himself oddly because of his sore back. Now that he can move without being in pain, he can do things he couldn't before, but his muscles aren't used to doing it so struggle. He's getting better with work, but we have a long way to go.

 

[Chinchilla]

That's bacteria, not viruses. Viruses can't be cured with antibiotics, they don't work that way sadly. They mutate too much.

I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.

 

[mandyroberts]

Hello Community:

I recently heard that over 80% of horses have at least one vertebrae that is close and/or kissing the other.

I've also heard there is no such thing as a completely healthy back and spine.

My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine? What type of horses are usually x-ray'd?

Any other information you can share about cervical spine and back findings would be appreciated, especially as it relates to dressage horses.

Thanks!
Marie

I had a problem with a horse on trial and wanted his back x-rayed. My vet said that 50% of horses would show some abnormality on x-ray but in many cases it means nothing. I did have the x-ray which showed changes in the bone where my physio, saddler and vet all had concerns so I did return the horse (on my vets advice as I keep horses forever so if it wasn't the cause of the immediate problem something could develeop in the longer term).

I attended a lecture recently where the 80% of racehorses had kissing spines was stated, but with the comment that this was for a trial of horses who had to retire and be euthanized so you would expect a high percentage.

I have recently bought a 4 year old who was being sold with recent back, neck,leg x-rays, all clear. The seller said she always x-rayed horses as she had her reputation to preserve and couldn't afford to sell a horse with problems. She was selling on behalf of the owner but still insisted the owner had the x-rays and she x-rays all horses pre-purchase she is buying to sell. He is a potential dressage horse.

My vet also said if you scanned sound horses tendons you could always find problems if you look hard enough.....

 

[ester]

Exactly, I think part of the disparity in PPE xrays between us and the continent is insurance based, IIRC insurance doesnt usually do vets fees over there like it does over here? and over here for most to do so 'just to check' would be a quick way to an exclusion on an otherwise perfect and unaffected horse so it tends to only be people previously heartbroken by an affected horse.