80% of Horses Have Kissing Spine...

[Slightlyconfused]

Exactly, I think part of the disparity in PPE xrays between us and the continent is insurance based, IIRC insurance doesnt usually do vets fees over there like it does over here? and over here for most to do so 'just to check' would be a quick way to an exclusion on an otherwise perfect and unaffected horse so it tends to only be people previously heartbroken by an affected horse.

The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted.
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found.

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner.

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic?

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.

 

[Wagtail]

From personal experience, the youngest horsse here to be diagnosed was a 4 year old TB that was born into racing but had never raced. He was 'rescued' from a paddock by a livery of mine who paid £700 for him as a starved and dehydrated son of a Derby winner. Once we got him into good condition, it was clear that he would never allow himself to be ridden. He was found to have severe kissing spine. The second youngest was a 14.2hh cob 5 years old. Started off in a riding school. Bucked and was intermittently lame on 3 legs. Diagnosed with very mild KS (two vertebra rubbing). Third youngest was a 7 year old WB that was very nappy and occasionally reared. Then I had two of my own. One aged 11 and a retired steeple chaser. The only problems he exhibited was to run off with novice riders and he struggled with right canter to begin with. However, with strengthening work he became a nice little dressage horse. The final one was 8 when I got him and he was explosive after you saddled him and asked him to move forward. He was fine once you were on him unless you tightened the girth. But his issues got worse and he was found to have ten vertebra touching or fused together. I had him operated on but he was just as bad after being girthed after the op so he was retired. He was an ex racer too. My personal belief is that overloading the spine at too young an age is responsible for many cases of KS.

 

[rachk89]

I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.

Bacteria mutates but at a slow rate than viruses. Viruses mutate much faster, colds can't be cured because of this. The virus mutates too quickly and there's too many different strains of the stupid virus now. Bacteria probably wouldn't bother mutating if it wasn't for us trying to kill it with antibiotics. Antibiotics focus on a part of the bacteria to destroy, usually a protein that makes it up. You've got something to focus on with bacteria. You can try and do that with a virus and 24 hours later it's mutated itself so you're back at square one. Yes the bacteria can change and eventually fight off the antibiotics but that takes a lot of time.

 

[Goldenstar]

My experiance is
1. five yo homebred struggled with various aspects of work walking down hill ridden shortening stride when jumping no bad behaviour this was before you could X-ray a back went with my guts PTS severe KS found on PM .
2 driving horse 18 high high mileage horse went off driving ,mild KS found on X-ray injected with steroid stopped driving went on to happily hunt for two seasons PTS for other reasons .
3 driving horse backed to ride at ten some crowding found injected worked to try to prevent further issues up hill horse with extreme conformation was 13 ( I think when it was found ) hunts jumps now 17 has regular Physio but is going fine .
4 .hunter 15 always bucked started doing some wierd jumps KS found on X-ray not a good temperament to have surgery and rehab PTS .
5 . Be advanced horse. 13 found severe KS six months after purchase at surgery bones where so diseased they where crumbling as they reshaped them did rehab horses completely changed shape he was magic went from permanently trying to get his tongue over the bit to being ridden with no noseband sadly I had to PTS and he had a large growth on his bowel .
It's does seem logical to me that many older well worked horses will have bony changes in the back.

 

[ester]

*sits on hands and sings to self to prevent the bacteria/virus discussion itching.

Slightlyconfused I think I get you and I think you are agreeing. I am suggesting that in this country, the ramifications of xraying an otherwise fine horse can be significant/more significant than other countries.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

*sits on hands and sings to self to prevent the bacteria/virus discussion itching.

Slightlyconfused I think I get you and I think you are agreeing. I am suggesting that in this country, the ramifications of xraying an otherwise fine horse can be significant/more significant than other countries.

Yes I was agreeing.
one of the reasons I didn't vet one of mine was because I knew he would fail on his hind end but I thought with work and strengthening it would come right. And it did vet agreed he would have failed him first off but 9 months later he would have passed for what we needed. Though he has had a lot of time off this summer so all that strength has gone and it's caused a suspensory strain due to his confirmation he has done everything and more we needed and other than failing over and tearing a hole in his stifle this is the first time he has been lame in the 5 years we have had him.
If he had been vetted and failed and we might have walked away we would have missed out on a gem of a horse.

😊 I've actually enjoyed this thread tonight it's been nice having a good old discussion.

 

[marieshorses]

That's bacteria, not viruses. Viruses can't be cured with antibiotics, they don't work that way sadly. They mutate too much.

Technically, it's cytopathic a effect of bacteria so both are usually treated with different meds.

 

[marieshorses]

is xraying a preventative measure? surely the definition of prevantative is that it prevents something, xraying merely observes.

I have certainly never heard your theory on obtaining the best field data! I do feel your questions/what you are asking seems to have changed as posts have gone on but maybe that is just me.

Not really changing since the initial query that was open-ended to begin with. Anyhow, I do appreciate all the feedback.

 

[marieshorses]

I'm in agreement with slightlyconfused. My horse was born with it, it's part of his conformation. For such a large, bulky horse he has quite a short back in comparison to others of his build and height. So the vertebrae have less room. Nothing could be done, but he didn't need surgery. Hopefully never will either, but you never know.

He has issues with his hind legs too, in particular his right hind, but I think this was caused from him having to hold himself oddly because of his sore back. Now that he can move without being in pain, he can do things he couldn't before, but his muscles aren't used to doing it so struggle. He's getting better with work, but we have a long way to go.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[marieshorses]

The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted.
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found.

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner.

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic?

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.

Thanks for sharing! It's all a chance we take with horses. Veterinarians have also expressed the same thing: you could have a horse competing at high level with vertebrae that "kiss" without any major issues in both physical performance and personality.

 

[marieshorses]

From personal experience, the youngest horsse here to be diagnosed was a 4 year old TB that was born into racing but had never raced. He was 'rescued' from a paddock by a livery of mine who paid £700 for him as a starved and dehydrated son of a Derby winner. Once we got him into good condition, it was clear that he would never allow himself to be ridden. He was found to have severe kissing spine. The second youngest was a 14.2hh cob 5 years old. Started off in a riding school. Bucked and was intermittently lame on 3 legs. Diagnosed with very mild KS (two vertebra rubbing). Third youngest was a 7 year old WB that was very nappy and occasionally reared. Then I had two of my own. One aged 11 and a retired steeple chaser. The only problems he exhibited was to run off with novice riders and he struggled with right canter to begin with. However, with strengthening work he became a nice little dressage horse. The final one was 8 when I got him and he was explosive after you saddled him and asked him to move forward. He was fine once you were on him unless you tightened the girth. But his issues got worse and he was found to have ten vertebra touching or fused together. I had him operated on but he was just as bad after being girthed after the op so he was retired. He was an ex racer too. My personal belief is that overloading the spine at too young an age is responsible for many cases of KS.

Very interesting. How do you feel generally about cold-backed horses and warmup? I know of a Grand Prix 11yo horse that is warmed up before each ride due to being a tighter built / cold-backed. I do not know what his x-ray's reveal, but have been told the rider/owner believe warmup--on the longe to begin--is essential to keeping the horse in top health. Any feelings about that?

 

[be positive]

The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted.
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found.

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner.

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic?

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.

I can relate to almost this scenario, successful BE novice horse with an excellent record, tried twice behaved perfectly both times so purchased subject to vetting, my 2 minor concerns were related to the vet, 1 his front feet were flat and in need of shoeing, 2 he went slightly roached backed for a few strides when walked forward after tacking up but no other signs of a problem.

He was vetted 8 or 9 days after the second try and behaved really badly under saddle, I was not there but the purchasers were, the vet was not impressed and wanted to stop the vetting but they wanted to continue, xrays showed some minor KS that were not considered to be conclusive, against advice they bought the horse.
I collected him as they were going on holiday, rode him the next day and could not believe they had bought a totally different horse to the one we viewed, I did advise returning him, an undeclared stable vice showed which gave grounds to do so, but was, like the vet, overruled and they took him home as planned when they returned from their holiday after I had had an "interesting" week riding him.

He was a problem in many ways from day 1, they had various "experts" examine and treat him for different things, he was injected in the spine but not operated on, in between flare ups in behaviour he did his job, took his young rider round numerous events fairly successfully but never performed as he had in his previous home, he was sold a few years later for a nominal price has since gone Intermediate, collected more points but he seemed to have gaps in his record where I guess he had to be treated to keep him going.

To get to the point I think once he was sold the rider backed off the work, there was over a week between us trying and getting our vet out, let the grooms tick him over and the KS that had been managed, probably not even known or suspected, became uncomfortable which is why he blew up at the vetting, they should have walked away while they had the chance, I think he would have been fine if he had stayed in full work until vetting then once in his new home he would have become symptomatic, the outcome would have been the same for the horse but they would not have lost £££'s .

 

[Goldenstar]

My horse passed a five stage vetting wirh hindsight you can see the signs in his record prior to purchase but hindsight is a wonderful thing .

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Very interesting. How do you feel generally about cold-backed horses and warmup? I know of a Grand Prix 11yo horse that is warmed up before each ride due to being a tighter built / cold-backed. I do not know what his x-ray's reveal, but have been told the rider/owner believe warmup--on the longe to begin--is essential to keeping the horse in top health. Any feelings about that?

That also could have nothing to do with ks he could have a muscular problem like pssm.

One of mine has had a few tying up episodes and he can get stiff/cold backed but if I keep his muscles warm, spend more time on his warm up and get the bleep to actually eat his vit e and alcar as it does help improve him then he shows none of the cold backed and tense symptoms.

You can't look at a horse and go that has ks from the way that horse likes to be managed there are so many factors involved and if someone finds a routine that works why investigate further if the horse is happy?

 

[daffy44]

Was the full cervical and back done? Were there any vertebrae that showed any form of degeneration? Have you done any x-rays on the older horse to see if anything has changed? The veterinarians I've consulted with have said it's very common to see compressed vertebrae in equine athletes (even dressage). What are your thoughts on that?

Both horses had full cervical and backs done, and there was no degeneration visible on either horse at the time of xray. I have not xrayed either of them since as neither horse has given me any cause to, I accept that wear and tear may well be visible now on the older horse, but she shows absolutely no signs of discomfort whatsoever, nor does she show any stiffening etc through her back. Her legs are scanned annually, as are all my horses, as a preventative measure, and her legs scan very well too.

 

[marieshorses]

Bacteria mutates but at a slow rate than viruses. Viruses mutate much faster, colds can't be cured because of this. The virus mutates too quickly and there's too many different strains of the stupid virus now. Bacteria probably wouldn't bother mutating if it wasn't for us trying to kill it with antibiotics. Antibiotics focus on a part of the bacteria to destroy, usually a protein that makes it up. You've got something to focus on with bacteria. You can try and do that with a virus and 24 hours later it's mutated itself so you're back at square one. Yes the bacteria can change and eventually fight off the antibiotics but that takes a lot of time.

Thanks for sharing. Viruses and bacterium are often synonymous, for example: bacteriophages are viruses that infect bacteria. Anyhow, I'm sure this is now off-topic! ;-)

 

[marieshorses]

Both horses had full cervical and backs done, and there was no degeneration visible on either horse at the time of xray. I have not xrayed either of them since as neither horse has given me any cause to, I accept that wear and tear may well be visible now on the older horse, but she shows absolutely no signs of discomfort whatsoever, nor does she show any stiffening etc through her back. Her legs are scanned annually, as are all my horses, as a preventative measure, and her legs scan very well too.

Thank you for expanding. Annual scan of legs are hugely important! ;-)

 

[marieshorses]

That also could have nothing to do with ks he could have a muscular problem like pssm.

One of mine has had a few tying up episodes and he can get stiff/cold backed but if I keep his muscles warm, spend more time on his warm up and get the bleep to actually eat his vit e and alcar as it does help improve him then he shows none of the cold backed and tense symptoms.

You can't look at a horse and go that has ks from the way that horse likes to be managed there are so many factors involved and if someone finds a routine that works why investigate further if the horse is happy?

What type of Vitamin E are you supplementing with? And I assume the ALCAR is l-carnitine?

 

[ycbm]

Here's mine. Cold backed in winter since four. X ray taken at seven after performance issues. Five kissing due to severe crowding. High level dressage bred on both sides, mainly Hanoverian.

 

[ester]

*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too...


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.

 

[cobgoblin]

Thanks for sharing. Viruses and bacterium are often synonymous, for example: bacteriophages are viruses that infect bacteria. Anyhow, I'm sure this is now off-topic! ;-)

Viruses and bacteria are definitely not synonymous. They are two separate entities.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too...

 

[ester]

Viruses and bacteria are definitely not synonymous. They are two separate entities.

and even if they weren't phage wouldn't be any sort of example ps I love you




*hand sitting fail and breathe...


MoC stop laughing at me

 

[ycbm]

and even if they weren't phage wouldn't be any sort of example ps I love you




*hand sitting fail and breathe...


MoC stop laughing at me

You know what makes my teeth itch? The expression 'it makes my teeth itch'

I keep wondering what the OP's agenda is here. OP what did you actually want?

 

[ester]

lol, I'm only itching, no teeth involved, that one goes over my head!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

MoC stop laughing at me

I'm not just laughing at you

 

[ester]

I'm not just laughing at you

ah with me, excellent . I shall therefore continue to make nice comments about your new pony.

 

[cobgoblin]

I've caught the itch....do you think it's bacterial or viral?

 

[ester]

idiopathic.

I do find that as a dx about on a par with 'it's a virus' .

 

[marieshorses]

Here's mine. Cold backed in winter since four. X ray taken at seven after performance issues. Five kissing due to severe crowding. High level dressage bred on both sides, mainly Hanoverian.

THANK YOU for sharing! Did you have issues with self-carriage while trying to collect?