A rant: Vet won't spay

[CanteringCarrot]

So I've wanted to get my 2 year old bitch spayed (Labrador) for awhile now. First it was, "let her have a few heats" and she did. They were uneventful and fine.

So since she was due for some vaccinations, and just had a heat in Aug/Sept I figured I could schedule her spay for the near future. Since her heats were fine, they don't want to spay. The vet also stated they'll do it for cats, but don't spay or neuter for dogs anymore. Unless there is some sort of complication.

Well, I don't want the risk of womb cancer, and I don't wish to breed her, so I'd like her spayed. I really like this vet, but I now need to find one that'll so it, but apparently my vets attitude is common and many others see it this way and don't spay. I think it's just like that here. Please tell me it isn't like that elsewhere? ?

Mostly a rant, but I just wanted a spay, and hope I can find a good vet to do it. If not, I guess it's not the worst thing? ?

 

[Clodagh]

I think in some European countries it is regarded as voluntary mutilation, perhaps that attitude is spreading.
I always spay but many people don’t so she will probably be fine. I’m sure you would see any pyo or mammary tumours in good time. I’d be narked though, in your shoes.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Spaying is routinely performed and recommended by vets in the UK for non breeding bitches.

You're in Germany, arent you? Maybe your vet is a one off weird and wacky one. Try another practice?

ETA I see you said that the anti spay dogma is common in your country .

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yeah it would be a pretty common attitude in DE and it is seen as mutilation/removing of/tampering with organs in some countries. In the circles I move in, it's pretty much unheard of unless there's an immediate risk to health/a hereditary health problem.

 

[SOS]

Find a vet that will. 1 in 3 bitches will get pyometra in their life. It can be fatal if unrecognised and at best leads to an emergency neuter on a sick animal.

 

[babymare]

Our wee spaniel got pyometra on her second season(was going in to be spayed after 3 months after that) and it is something I do not want to witness again. I can still see her screaming (and I mean screaming with pain)crawling on her belly to her dad. Emergency vets and once recovered she was spayed as emergency.

 

[Parrotperson]

agreed babymare. We had a rescue bitch that needed an emergency spay because of pyo. Not nice at all and if you're not breeding then spay. I had no idea this was an issue in some countries.

 

[Roxylola]

Give it a bit and tell them she's started having phantoms and it's really hard on her. If they won't spay because there's no issue that might change things

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Give it a bit and tell them she's started having phantoms and it's really hard on her. If they won't spay because there's no issue that might change things

I thought about this. Worse case scenario she gets spayed next summer after we move, but I am still not quite sure which country and/or area we are moving too, so there's that.

It's a common attitude to have around here, and I am guessing they don't see so much pyometra? I don't know. I am still going to ask around. I think my hairdresser had her bitch spayed, so I might chat with her soon.

I think it is just that they like to leave things natural. I guess there were also some studies about spaying not being as beneficial as once thought (maybe for mammory stuff, idk, or older dogs). I have not seen said studies though. It was just mentioned in passing at the vet office.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

We, as a family don't routinely spay and would be delighted to find a vet practice that doesn't try to pressure the owners of bitches into spaying. I would be interested to read the studies your vet mentioned, OP.

 

[Birker2020]

So I've wanted to get my 2 year old bitch spayed (Labrador) for awhile now. First it was, "let her have a few heats" and she did. They were uneventful and fine.

So since she was due for some vaccinations, and just had a heat in Aug/Sept I figured I could schedule her spay for the near future. Since her heats were fine, they don't want to spay. The vet also stated they'll do it for cats, but don't spay or neuter for dogs anymore. Unless there is some sort of complication.

Well, I don't want the risk of womb cancer, and I don't wish to breed her, so I'd like her spayed. I really like this vet, but I now need to find one that'll so it, but apparently my vets attitude is common and many others see it this way and don't spay. I think it's just like that here. Please tell me it isn't like that elsewhere? ?

Mostly a rant, but I just wanted a spay, and hope I can find a good vet to do it. If not, I guess it's not the worst thing? ?

Good God stupid vet. Maybe the vets that will have to pts 17,000 healthy dogs sitting in dogs homes around the country during the next 12 months would have wished their Mums had been spayed.

And the workers in kill shelters who have to place puppies alongside adult dogs of all shapes and sizes in big metal boxes and turn on the gas pipes also wish that there was no need for this. Makes my blood boil.

 

[CorvusCorax]

While it isn't what the OP wants, it is possible to keep an entire dog and not have it breed with another dog/have pups, though.

I'm not sure there's so much of a problem in Germany with unwanted dogs as there is in these islands, or if they have kill shelters, or if they do, how they work.
Are there kill shelters of the type you describe in the UK or Ireland, I am not sure if there are?

 

[fankino04]

Of the 3 dogs I have owned as an adult 2 were bitches and both got pyo, Tey when she was 4 and had never had an issues when in season and noodle had an emergency spay due to pyo a month before we adopted her when she was 6. It definitely made me think I would absolutely want the next one spayed irrespective of how they cope when in season.

 

[windand rain]

I won't routinely spay either have read a lot of research that puts labradors and retrievers at the top of bitches that should not be spayed except as an emergency. Cancers being the top reasons not to spay both long bone and heart and blood cancers most of the risks are slightly improved with greater age but are still a known risk and high numbers too. Not done the research into small dogs but from the research I have done they seem less likely to have the same cancer risk. There are also dozens of other reasons not to spay and very few good reasons to. Pyometra is the only one and if caught early now isn't necessarily a reason to spay have a breeder friend who has had a couple of bitches treated without spaying them

 

[Birker2020]

Are there kill shelters of the type you describe in the UK or Ireland, I am not sure if there are?

No this is in America.

I understand that its possible to keep entire dogs and unspayed bitches and appreciate that you might choose to do it because you are a responsible dog owner and I wouldn't criticise you for your choice as you are responsible. However, as we know only too well there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners about too. I also know its quite an emotive subject.

This is the Youtube video. It isn't graphic or noisy nor does it show them die as they are enclosed, but perhaps more people should watch the video before they think about not spaying their dogs if they cannot guarantee they will not become pregnant. It was the image of the puppies and their total innocence as they stand on the bodies of their companions that broke my heart and the knowing what was going to happen. And the lack of clarity that they are absolutely dead......before they are disposed of so callously.

Of course pedigree dogs stand more chance of being rehomed than mongrels and puppies than adult dogs and white dogs than dark coloured dogs. Or so I thought, until I watched the video and it blew all the tales out of the water.

CAUTION THIS VIDEO MAY CAUSE DISTRESS

 

[windand rain]

Bit irrelevant in the uk though

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Well I have dogs, not bitches but I no longer routinely neuter. I probably would if I had bitches but there is an ethical discussion to be had about elective surgery for convenience's sake and people should at least give some consideration to what they are doing imho.

 

[Birker2020]

Bit irrelevant in the uk though

I don't call having 17K dogs a year pts in this country as irrelevant to be honest. But still.
And if this new idea of not spaying takes off in America there will be even more in kill shelters.

 

[paddy555]

I think there is a difference between people not spaying who are responsible and who have chosen not to do so for medical reasons and those who just let there dogs do anything and cause the over population problem.
I haven't spayed my male and won't because he is not allowed out on the razzle. I know where he is every minute of the day.
A bitch I would be more worried about and would spay. Not because of increasing the population but because of pyo. However I wouldn't do it too early.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I know it is something people are passionate about but kill shelters in the USA have very little bearing on what happens in the UK or indeed Germany, which is where the OP is writing from (and where my middle dog was born, to a nine year old female, who was fit as a fiddle). In the USA people are pretty hot on neutering as a rule, and they still have issues.
I don't disagree with spaying females but it is something I generally leave til later life. In my own breed there's a lot of very useful breeding animals who would have been gone from the gene pool and indeed some were gone because people were too hasty with the decision to spay or neuter. I can see both sides, I have also had a female who had a pyo and false pregnancy at 11 or 12 and had to have an emergency spay, I will spay my own female but not until she is past breeding age. Her father was nearly ten.

 

[Birker2020]

I think there is a difference between people not spaying who are responsible and who have chosen not to do so for medical reasons and those who just let there dogs do anything and cause the over population problem.
I haven't spayed my male and won't because he is not allowed out on the razzle. I know where he is every minute of the day.
A bitch I would be more worried about and would spay. Not because of increasing the population but because of pyo. However I wouldn't do it too early.

this is not a criticism, I am genuinely asking a question here. But does this mean you cannot let him off the lead in the park or other open space in the off chance he could mate with an unspayed bitch? Or do you have enough land that you don't need to take him places?

I think that the hassle of having to watch a dog all the time and the consequences if you took your eye of the ball wouldn't be worth all the stress.

Does having a male dog unneutered give it more 'sparkle' like a stallion horse? Again I'm not trying to be smart, it's a genuine question. Surely there is no risk in having a dog neutered, its a relatively safe thing to do isn't it?

Are police dogs neutered? Does it make them more 'keen' on their job or hunting quarry if they remained untouched?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Surely there is no risk in having a dog neutered, its a relatively safe thing to do isn't it?

actually there is a massive risk in certain breeds in castrating, especially if its done before they are mature (as is the fashion these days to get them done before a year old). The castration itself is low risk but ridding the dog of sex hormones has major effects on other phsyiological systems as it matures.

I expect its the same for horses, most other countries manage entires far differently than we do (for better and worse) and mares of course, are entire although most seem to forget that. I would love to see a long term study on the effects of gelding horses but someone would need to pay for it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

IME working/service dogs are very rarely neutered for the reasons described, unless, as mentioned, there is an immediate threat to their health or they could pass on something dodgy or are being retired to a pet home. You do need a certain element of, erm, spunk (sorry!!) in a dog that has to do that sort of work, which includes chasing people and facing down a direct threat.
When important hormones are taken out of the equation, yes, it absolutely can affect performance and temperament.

In my own breed, they are judged as breeding animals, not just the dog you see in front of you, if they don't have the actual breeding equipment, they cannot contribute anything to the breed. If they have been neutered, you cannot tell if they were ever a monorchid or a cryptorchid, which are serious faults.

My dogs are never out of my sight, or off lead in public places when there is anyone about, it is just responsible dog ownership and keeps them safe from harm and as a breed that not everyone wants to see running towards them, give other people peace of mind, I can exercise their bodies and minds in other ways and in other places.

 

[Birker2020]

My dogs are never out of my sight, or off lead in public places when there is anyone about, it is just responsible dog ownership and keeps them safe from harm and as a breed that not everyone wants to see running towards them, give other people peace of mind, I can exercise their bodies and minds in other ways and in other places.

If only everyone was as sensible as you. Sadly living by a big city and seeing many stray dogs in my younger years roaming the streets and visiting the dogs home to get my own dog many years ago and seeing just how many dogs were sat there waiting their forever homes, it just makes me feel very sad. We have three massive dogs homes in a 15 mile radius of our house. Its mad.

When the dogs homes started giving concessions to people for nuetering/spaying rehomed dogs from them, it seemed such a good idea.

 

[paddy555]

this is not a criticism, I am genuinely asking a question here. But does this mean you cannot let him off the lead in the park or other open space in the off chance he could mate with an unspayed bitch? Or do you have enough land that you don't need to take him places?

I think that the hassle of having to watch a dog all the time and the consequences if you took your eye of the ball wouldn't be worth all the stress.

Does having a male dog unneutered give it more 'sparkle' like a stallion horse? Again I'm not trying to be smart, it's a genuine question. Surely there is no risk in having a dog neutered, its a relatively safe thing to do isn't it?

I never let him off the lead other than on my own premises. I don't do this on the off chance that he could mate but because he is a GSD and if even the slightest thing goes wrong he will because of his breed get the blame. Basically for the reasons in the final para of CC's post 23
I am also very fortunate that I have sufficient area for him to run free at home.

I don't think it gives him more sparkle. In fact I don't think you could tell the difference with him.

 

[Birker2020]

I never let him off the lead other than on my own premises. I don't do this on the off chance that he could mate but because he is a GSD and if even the slightest thing goes wrong he will because of his breed get the blame. Basically for the reasons in the final para of CC's post 23
I am also very fortunate that I have sufficient area for him to run free at home.

I don't think it gives him more sparkle. In fact I don't think you could tell the difference with him.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If only everyone was as sensible as you. Sadly living by a big city and seeing many stray dogs in my younger years roaming the streets and visiting the dogs home to get my own dog many years ago and seeing just how many dogs were sat there waiting their forever homes, it just makes me feel very sad. We have three massive dogs homes in a 15 mile radius of our house. Its mad.

When the dogs homes started giving concessions to people for nuetering/spaying rehomed dogs from them, it seemed such a good idea.

I guess being brought up with GSDs in a pretty rural/quiet area I was always taught to not be THAT person with the scary Alsayshun. When I was a teenager I used to hang about on a big city estate and there were just packs of dogs running everywhere, it blew my mind - even just that they were at risk of being hit by cars or would chase cats or scare kids.
But I wonder how often that happens now though? I do think as a rule there is more education and promotion of spay and neuter, but the problem is that the consumer **WANTS** something and people will provide, and someone will always pick up the slack.
Hell, there was a poster on here years ago who used to go through dogs at a rate of knots and move them on every time they moved house or circumstances changed.
I've seen the intake books at some shelters and some of the reasons would make you weep.
For me the incentives should be for good/responsible breeding (genetics is a key issue in a lot of the behavioural problems which mean dogs end up getting rehomed/dumped) and the education should be at the other end as well - dogs are living creatures, they are not disposable, they need to be trained, not every breed will suit every household, etc etc etc. Just the idea that dogs are not 'things' like a mobile phone or a TV to be replaced when it's no longer convenient.

 

[Moobli]

There are valid arguments on both sides of the neuter debate. Both my GSDs and sheepdogs are currently entire. The GSDs (a dog and bitch) live together in the house and I chose to have the male implanted (basically chemical castration) while I decide what to do about spaying. If I don’t breed my female I probably will have her spayed but don’t want to jump the gun with no come back and also it’s far better for her to fully mature before being spayed.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Oh here we go, the 'you are spaying for your own convenience' brigade again .

Nope. I spay for my bitches' benefit.

 

[Moobli]

That’s a heartbreaking video Birker ?